crew Why is it so difficult to find collaborators for a project?

Nate North

Nate North

I have to assume that I'm not the only one on an independent film form that wants to make an independent film. If you've ever tried making one, you know that it's nearly impossible to have any type of success without a larger group involved. My question is, why are people uninterested in joining teams or groups? As a lone individual, your fate is sealed, if 1000 of us worked together, there is no question we'd get something published. I bought a product yesterday. 12 people got together and worked full time on it for 3 years. It was great, I paid full price for it. They now have funding for the next product, and everyone is happy and headed for a profitable carreer in the industry.

Here's the clip I watched about their team and project. It's just a simple top down shooter, innovation level 0. It was great, no issues, everyone is happy.


I live in a small town, and neighborhood garage bands are common. People get together and practice for years, travelling 50 miles to a practice spot, to split up 200 dollars a gig, once they are good enough. They spend thousands each on equipment, and hundreds of hours just getting to that point, and everyone shows up for that.

If people are as passionate about making film as they say they are, why is the willingness to team up and commit so fractional in filmmaking, compared to music, which is arguably hundreds of times easier to succeed at (at least in terms of getting a set written and playing it for an audience)? Do you think it would be strange to watch 6 people collaborate and spend for years to build a lemonade stand, and then go over to a skyscraper construction forum and find everyone trying to do it solo with no money?
 
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We all had different ideas of what this project was. It was almost like a secret that has been unveiled. A very... strange(?) marketing tactic lol especially when looking for people to join.
 
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Nate North said:
It's just how my mind works. Lets say I called someone to pick me up at LAX and they said, we will have "transportation" available. I instantly assume they mean some kind of car, maybe a 2008 Ford Taurus, but when I show up, it's that giant speaker car from Mad Max with the flamethrower guitar guy. I'd be thinking to myself, I wish that they had described this a little better, this is not exactly what I was expecting.
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I don't get this analogy. Of course analogies are never perfect, but you haven't been saying "transportation" or "giant speaker car from Mad Max". The fact is most people here wouldn't say "transportation". Most people here would say "giant speaker car from Mad Max". Most of us would say it that way, because that's closer to what's coming to LAX. It may not be exact, but it's simple and more accurate. There are simple explanations that are also closer to being accurate. You're saying what's tripping you up is you are trying to be more accurate in your descriptions. I don't see that. I suggest what we keep reading is closer to "we'll have some sort of device that will operate along the standard surfaces, because you know without concrete, it's difficult to get devices to operate properly".

I'm sorry if you feel I'm piling on with this post (I do want to temper this with a repeat of what I said earlier, I think you have an interesting project going)... the world you live in seems to be populated by some extremely stupid and unsympathetic characters. Mayors that imprison immigrants, rich people that drop thousands at slot machines with nothing for you, cocaine addled stock brokers, cinematographers that waste tens of thousands before blowing up a project, drug addicts that seems to get others to support them... low quality forum advisors. This does not match the world I know. While I have met a few incompetent people in positions they shouldn't be, most people I know are capable in their positions, fairly smart and almost always trying their best. I have met a few evil and stupid human beings, but they do not litter the landscape of the world I live in. Do you believe everyone around you operates like the folks on Discord you quoted?

What if you haven't been saying "transportation" or "giant speaker car from Mad Max" in your posts and that's what people here have been trying to communicate to you?
 
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IvonV said:
I'm sorry if you feel I'm piling on with this post (I do want to temper this with a repeat of what I said earlier, I think you have an interesting project going)... the world you live in seems to be populated by some extremely stupid and unsympathetic characters. Mayors that imprison immigrants, rich people that drop thousands at slot machines with nothing for you, cocaine addled stock brokers, cinematographers that waste tens of thousands before blowing up a project, drug addicts that seems to get others to support them... low quality forum advisors. This does not match the world I know. While I have met a few incompetent people in positions they shouldn't be, most people I know are capable in their positions, fairly smart and almost always trying their best. I have met a few evil and stupid human beings, but they do not litter the landscape of the world I live in. Do you believe everyone around you operates like the folks on Discord you quoted?
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I fully understand your question, and it's fair. I consider you intelligent. Does that fit your perception of my outlook? I could literally write a book on this topic, but I don't think you'd enjoy it. My feeling is that the smartest thing we could do would be to try to ignore the negative feelings, legitimate or otherwise, and focus on creating a situation where we could work together to better our chances of achieving what I believe to be our shared goal, the creation of media products that succeed in the marketplace.

Once again I find myself writing paragraph after paragraph and then erasing them. I can make a number of salient points illustrating my view, but the real question is, why should I? That's time that could be spent moving towards a goal that had positive real life consequences. If I failed to convince you of my viewpoint, you'd loose respect for me. If I succeeded, it would make you feel worse about the world you live in. I have in fact mentioned some people that I really liked, but the bad ones stood out to you. Maybe that's the same thing that happened to me. Nobody has asked who Norman Borlaug is. Do you know? But you know who Nikki Minaj is right? Look him up, learn who he was, and you may understand a little bit about the disrespect I have for society and it's priorities.

I'll make it easy for you.


By contrast, Nikki Minaj is a person who the world showers with more praise and money than Borlaug ever had, by a lot. While he dedicated his life to ending misery and helping starving people who were literally watching their families die in front of them, she became famous for having a giant ass.

His quote "Man can and must prevent the tragedy of famine in the future instead of merely trying with pious regret to salvage the human wreckage of the famine, as he has so often done in the past."

Her quote “You a stupid hoe, you a, you a stupid hoe/You a stupid hoe, you a, you a stupid hoe/You a stupid hoe, you a, you a stupid hoe”

The album that quote came from made more money than Borlaug saw in his 95 year lifetime. This is why I say that resources are going to the wrong people. I'm irritated because people often can't discriminate between a sociopath and a hero.

For all my negativity, keep in mind that I'm here trying to get a group of friends together to work on a project that's intended to help us become successful, and bring something fun and entertaining into the world.
 
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Nate North said:
I was replying specifically to Sweetie, and I don't have any issue with you, he has repeatedly insinuated malice and criminal activity on my part, without so much as a basic understanding of what I'm doing.
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I'm glad it's now changed to a video game. I don't have to say anything anymore. You're doing a good enough job on your own. It's this clarity you have going that helps make the leader in you appear competent. I'll come back and see tomorrow's pivot.
 
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Nate North said:
By contrast, Nikki Minaj is a person who the world showers with more praise and money than Borlaug ever had, by a lot.
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Nate, you are confusing wealth and worth. There are many despicable people with incredible wealth and many amazing human beings with nothing. I know you know this, but you don't seem to accept that there are valid reasons for this. We can value people highly without ever contributing to their wealth. We will fork over money to people we don't care for because... they provide something we want.

Norman Borlaug was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. This is considered one of the highest honors on the planet. I don't know how we could honor or show how much the world valued Norman Borlaug than that prize. Give him money? No. I mean I'm sure many donate to The World Food Prize Foundation he founded, but as you pointed out, many many more give their money to Nicki Minaj. Not because we value her contributions as a human being (though some might), but because she produces something people want, her music. I'll agree the world's priorities are whacked when Nicki wins a Nobel Prize, until then... money accumulation is different than world priorities. I get that and can live peacefully in a world that operates out of that.

Where we spend our money has only a weak correlation to what we value. You clearly admire Norman Borlaug, but last week, you likely didn't send a donation to The World Food Prize Foundation, you spent it on food for yourself. Do you think as highly of the owner of the grocery store you bought your food from? Are you a hypocrite for doing this? No. You have a need. You, like every human on this planet spends your money on what you need -- or think you need -- much more than what you value. The people that dedicate their lives to offering things people are willing to pay for, accumulate wealth.

That confederate flag t-shirt wearing guy with all the money should be teaching you something. People in your town don't necessarily like him or admire him. He -- or his family -- produce something that people want. People may hate him, but they hand their money over to him. It's not because the world is whacked, it's because as bad as he might be, he meets people's needs.

If this seems like an academic discussion or off topic, it's not. Throughout this thread people have tried to convince you that to get others to join you, you need to meet their needs. You need to offer Nicki Minaj, not Norman Borlaug to them. You keep wondering why people don't join, it's for the same reason I will give thousands to vendors of film gear this year and not one penny to The World Food Prize Foundation (I do give to charities btw). I will gladly give Norman a 10 out of 10 to the question "Do you think Norman has contributed to improving the world". I might give B&H a 3. Yet, my money goes to B&H.

Imagine if your offer to join Share Point had some sort of message like: "As well as profiting from sales of your own assets, the first 50 people that join the collective will be given shares in 50% of the company. My projections show the company will be profitable in 5 years and you will share in those profits from then on." I can guess that that language is exactly what you don't want. That's fine. But, don't be asking why people don't seem to want to join. Accept that people don't want to join because you will not go down the road of the confederate flag t-shirt wearing guy who is better than you at offering people what they want. You appear to be super smart, but he understands something you don't seem to get or want to deal with. You should be at peace with that. Or... you should begin to learn something from the confederate flag t-shirt wearing guy.
 
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A well thought out response, and I appreciate it, I'm at what I think is a critical moment in the development process, and I really need to stay focused on work for a while, but I'll come back and respond to this and others soon.
 
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Nate North said:
By contrast, Nikki Minaj became famous for having a giant ass.
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Oh god.... are you confusing Nicki Minaj with Kim Kardasian ?

First off its Nicki not Nikki.
Secondly she is an extremely talented rapper that writes her own lyrics.

And finally I present you exhibit A; Nicki when she became famous. Clearly this is not a giant ass.

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I think its pretty funny you use her as an example of somebody everybody knows but yourself don't even know her.
 
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I can't really answer as to WHY people don't seem willing to go the extra mile when it comes to making a film but I can tell you what happened to me when I moved to New Mexico back in 2002. I had already come out here to scout things out. I'd heard and read that independent filmmaking was alive and well out here... Specifically, not that far from where I ended up.

I moved here from Northern California. I'd already had a little success screenwriting. Not a lot but enough to know I was on the right track but I didn't want to be a screenwriter... LOL. I just wanted to write my own material and make the movie. I wanted to direct what I'd written. In Northern California, I'd worked on a couple of Indie films where those directors have gone on to become major screenwriter/directors. I was attempting to follow in their footsteps the best way I could.

I noticed right off the bat... In Northern California anyway that both filmmakers were DYNAMIC as hell. LOL. I mean you could SEE and FEEL the PASSION they had when it came to the story we were all creating with and FOR them. There was also some "talk" of taking "everyone" with them if they ended up being successful and I have to say... Everyone bought into that too.

Both of those projects ended up doing well enough at Sundance to catapult both filmmakers into 3 picture deals and good for them! Unfortunately, for whatever reason... They didn't take anyone along with them. Once that happened? Nobody in that circle wanted to get involved with yet another passionate filmmaker.

And? I think that's completely understandable. That's a lot of FAITH for people to have in someone and when they don't come through? Everyone's let down. Lots of people ended up having to sell a lot of equipment that they had provided to those filmmakers in order to pay bills.

It is what it is.

So I do a little research... I figure I want to move so why not move to a place where Indie filmmakers seem to be thriving and working with each other. I didn't just move... I came out here quite a few times to meet people and figure out where the filmmakers were.

I eventually made the move. I was happy. I immediately joined an organization that had 76 members. I was the 77th. We had meetings once a month. The meetings were promising... Even inspirational. Our group even decided that we needed to make a film and so everyone that had a screenplay threw theirs into the mix. I believe there were 7 or 8 of us. The two founders of the organization were going to make the decision on which screenplay we should all work on first and develop into a film and yes... The person who'd written the screenplay would also direct.

Now understand... I'd been in the organization over a year by that time. I was the only one to show up to meetings sometimes. LOL. I built the organization's website and even hosted it since I lease my own server. In the middle of all that? We had a yearly film festival that had never done well prior to my becoming a member. When I volunteered to help run the festival, I got major companies to donate equipment and software as prizes. I got the site's url listed on a LOT of websites that had listings for film festivals.

That year, we had 3,300 plus entries... We also had a screenplay competition. Prior to that year? The film festival had never even had 20 entries. LOL. Needless to say? It was a HUGE success and we were even able to fly a couple of winners out to New Mexico to receive their prizes. Now at this point in the story... I need to tell you what happened behind the scenes.

Behind the scenes? Nobody wanted to do anything. I myself ended up judging all the films and screenplays. I couldn't even get the founders to help and this was more or less their gig. The last few meetings before the festival, we would have maybe as many as 11 members show up from month to month. After our extremely successful film festival however... All 78 (we'd gained a new member) members showed up at the meeting immediately AFTER the film festival.

I remember sitting there listening to everyone telling everyone in the meeting how things needed to be done now that the organization was SUCCESSFUL. LOL. Now we had some money. Now we had some equipment that had not been given out as prizes. Software too. Now there was a huge push to get working on a movie. The ONE thing everyone seemed to agree on was that we needed to make a film that could possibly make its money back. That meant a story that could compete in the commercial market.

So now there was a push to figure out which of those 7 or 8 screenplays were worth making. I am being completely honest when I say that my spec was the only spec that had any possible commercial appeal. All the other screenplays that had been submitted to the founders were not only terrible... They were extremely terrible. Plus? They were not really stories at all. Just simple character pieces that didn't really go anywhere.

I also need to point out that I was NOT hinging on the group picking my spec to make first. I didn't really care. I knew it was good enough for me to make on my own. I just needed people and I did have about 5 others interested in helping me out. But when it came time to vote on which screenplay would be the one we got our feet wet with as a group? The alliances came out of the woodwork. LOL. Even so? My script edged the others out but not by much. However... There were a lot of pissed off members.

Anyway... The following meeting after the festival? Nobody even showed except myself. We were lucky enough to be given very nice meeting space at the local university so it wasn't like we didn't have a place to meet. Nobody showed. I sat there for two hours waiting on anyone to show up and nobody did.

By the way... I also ran a LISTSERVE for the group at the time... I didn't get crazy. I wasn't angry. I simply documented that nobody showed up to the meeting and that hopefully, everyone was alright and would show up next month. And? The meeting the next month? Again... Nobody showed but ME. LOL. Again, I waited for two hours. Nobody showed. All those passionate filmmakers who all wanted to work on each other's films in exchange for everyone eventually working on their films didn't even bother to show up.

After the two hours... I went home, got online and through the LISTSERVE, resigned my position. I had become the third wheel in the cog under the two founders. I told them I'd host and maintain the site until the new year which was over six months away but then they were on their own. I promptly put all the site files on a CD and sent it to the founders.

Not only did I quit and never look back but there was never another meeting ever held. The organization that had been around for at least 6 or 7 years by that time? Just fell apart. On occasion, I would run into a member and talk to them about the organization and how it just completely fell apart after I left.

I believe the reason was because THINGS FINALLY GOT REAL. People talk and talk and talk about making films but when it finally comes down to digging in and getting your feet dirty? Nobody wants to... Unless it's on THEIR film. LOL. At least that's what I found with this organization. True... I was friends with only a few of the members so in the end? I wasn't all that surprised at what happened. And? I went on to sell that same spec so it was all good.

But to be honest? The EXPERIENCE kept me from ever trying to be like the first two filmmakers I schlepped gear for when they were making their films. I knew I was passionate but there was NO WAY I could expect somebody else to be as passionate about my film. No way. And? There's no way I could be as passionate about their film as they were. It dawned on me that my experience in Northern California on those two previous films most likely got finished because enough people thought they were all going WITH the filmmaker if and when he saw some success. I was in the Navy at the time so I was realistic... I didn't think I'd be sharing in any of the possible success. I was simply trying to help someone make a film in exchange for hopefully and eventually making my own.

In the end? Nobody but the filmmaker(s) that got their film made and submitted to Sundance became successful based off those two projects.

And there's still a lot of hard feelings about that experience... LOL. I know because I'm still in contact with a few of those people and especially the cinematographer who got me involved who ended having to sell all his equipment on eBay in order to pay the bills.

That's why today? If I were going to make a film? I would do my best to make sure everyone gets paid. I don't want to try to pass MY passion onto others to get them to work for nothing. I don't want to promise them that I'll take them all with me if I succeed. It's just not realistic. In fact? I know plenty of films that have been made by small groups of people over the years only to end up having everyone eventually pissed off at each other because in the end?

There was no reciprocity.

*EDIT: I just reread everything I wrote which is all true but I certainly do not want to persuade anyone NOT to make their film. I've seen some successful projects over the years and everyone is still friends. From my LIMITED observation on these projects? TO ME? And your mileage may certainly vary... It seems like the projects that do best with all the egos involved are those where the members do NOT compete with each other's primary ability. Too many cooks spoil the broth so to speak. In other words... Figure out what kind of crew you REQUIRE and NEED. What positions. Find crew who are willing to share at least some aspects of that primary ability. You do NOT want to find 20 people who all want to be writers/directors if that makes sense. LOL. Find people who do their one thing really well and keep finding them until you have a crew.
 
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Great post @Unknown Screenwriter and I especially feel a need to mention this:

Unknown Screenwriter said:
I would do my best to make sure everyone gets paid. I don't want to try to pass MY passion onto others to get them to work for nothing.
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This is something that came up multiple times in my productions. I paid EVERYONE, including PA's. Not a fortune, but I paid them.

I had numerous "discussions" with various people along the way, but one of the most memorable was with the agent of an actor who'd had a lead role in a short-lived series. I was interested in casting her in the lead role, and, via her agent, she made it clear that I'd have to provide childcare for her one year old during the production. I made it equally clear that I wasn't doing that. The salary was X. If she wanted to do it for that, I'd love to have her. And we were in agreement on every other term of the potential contract.

The agent said that I was being ridiculous because I could have an unpaid PA provide the childcare. She thought I was nuts when I said (a) my PA's are paid and (b) PA's want experience on a set, not babysitting experience.

But my bigger point is this: if you don't pay people, the first nice beach day, when their friends call and say let's have some fun, at least half of them will ditch even if they're getting experience. But if they're getting paid, it's a completely different situation. I never lost a single PA on either production.

And I too have been told "I'll bring you with me when I make it." Fortunately I didn't believe it AND I was being paid.
 
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The old "deferred pay" line you don't see much anymore. In NY, when people used to actually read papers lol, you'd look for work in the Village Voice sometimes. Almost all ads had "deferred pay." "When we make our million, you will get your rate" aka "Work for free!"

I don't see that around much anymore. But I haven't been looking, and papers with film ads are long gone.
 
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IvonV said:
Great story @Unknown Screenwriter. Some valuable insight about human motivations. Even with that, it does surprise me that no one showed up to meetings after the festival.
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I can only speculate as to why the organization never met again and fell apart... I think part of it was the IDEA that they would have to work on a film they weren't passionate about. Maybe they even thought by the time it was their turn? Nobody would be willing to work on their film. I say this because in my experience... Most people seem to judge and make decisions based on WHAT THEY'D DO THEMSELVES. LOL. Which is fine. Which is why most people do what they do.

It's the rare person who tries to cover ALL the bases by looking at things with as many different perspectives as possible.
 
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That's a very interesting and relevant story, well told. I genuinely want to respond, but it's not quite time to remove nose from grindstone. I will say that I truly empathize with your experience, and have had similar experiences. We're not all cut from the same cloth, and I accept that, but sometimes you really wish there were more people out there that actually cared about their artform or their friends. I will stop for a moment to say this, posers that only show up when the going gets easy get ditched, but if you make yourself indispensable, that's a different story. Where things go bad (case in point when the walking dead showrunners fired the director of the Shawshank redemption and then ran 10 years of soap opera) is when the people making the decisions are not bright enough to see past their own egos, and respect the fact that you mattered. I have a relevant story, but as I said, it will have to wait a minute. It takes some serious man hours to build something worthwhile. If it makes you feel marginally better, not everyone acts like the group you describe, bus sadly, almost everyone. The Beastie Boys were just 3 guys that liked and respected each other, and there was a year when they practically took over the world. It says something about what could have happened if there had been 3 of you at that filmmaking group as opposed to 1. I think the trick is to be passionate about more than just the film, or a certain vision, you have to be passionate about living your life the right way, if you can get that right, it can become a means justifies the ends situation.
 
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