crew Why is it so difficult to find collaborators for a project?

I have to assume that I'm not the only one on an independent film form that wants to make an independent film. If you've ever tried making one, you know that it's nearly impossible to have any type of success without a larger group involved. My question is, why are people uninterested in joining teams or groups? As a lone individual, your fate is sealed, if 1000 of us worked together, there is no question we'd get something published. I bought a product yesterday. 12 people got together and worked full time on it for 3 years. It was great, I paid full price for it. They now have funding for the next product, and everyone is happy and headed for a profitable carreer in the industry.

Here's the clip I watched about their team and project. It's just a simple top down shooter, innovation level 0. It was great, no issues, everyone is happy.


I live in a small town, and neighborhood garage bands are common. People get together and practice for years, travelling 50 miles to a practice spot, to split up 200 dollars a gig, once they are good enough. They spend thousands each on equipment, and hundreds of hours just getting to that point, and everyone shows up for that.

If people are as passionate about making film as they say they are, why is the willingness to team up and commit so fractional in filmmaking, compared to music, which is arguably hundreds of times easier to succeed at (at least in terms of getting a set written and playing it for an audience)? Do you think it would be strange to watch 6 people collaborate and spend for years to build a lemonade stand, and then go over to a skyscraper construction forum and find everyone trying to do it solo with no money?
 
I'm also in the boat as rik, just when I feel I'm understanding what you're trying to accomplish, you throw me a wobbly.
Perhaps he doesn't even know himself and that's the problem. I guess we can wait for the Save Point v2 thread.
 
I guess i could see a use-case for this.
I wrote a funny christmas parody song last year that would be a good flash animation or something on youtube but i'm not an animator.

If it were simple enough to put those animations together then its possible i would use something like that.
but idk if its something i would pay money for. it's certainly not something i would make money for creating just so 200 ppl can watch it and leave 3 comments.
 
Here's an exercise for you Nate. Not sure how many people are on your team, under 15?

Ask each team member "What is Save Point?" Nothing else. See what they say.

"Hey team I am doing a little exercise. I want you to answer this question in as few words as possible. I will not clarify the question, all answers are welcome."

It would be interesting for us to see what they say but even more so for you.
 
I'm also in the boat as rik, just when I feel I'm understanding what you're trying to accomplish, you throw me a wobbly.
I'll tell you guys what has happened here, and why you didn't get a response right away. I wrote several responses and erased them because I didn't like them, then I wrote this huge response in the form of a small play, and revised it 3 times, but decided it was probably too edgy and controversial to post, and erased it. Then I realized I had been writing for 4 hours, and hadn't done any actual work on Save Point.

I don't know what a watered down software play is, now you have me confused, Touche!

I am trying to answer all of these questions as well as I can and as fast as I can.
 

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Perhaps he doesn't even know himself and that's the problem. I guess we can wait for the Save Point v2 thread.
I know exactly what I'm trying to accomplish, in terms of the final goal. The route to that goal is a kind of evolving system. I have a working path right now, but it's not as good as I need it to be, and I'm constantly iterating on that. However, that hasn't really affected much of my posting here. Basically I'm referring to the actual technical solutions. Solving for something like this is extremely complicated, the current pipeline iteration involves dozens of processes across maybe 25 seperate software platforms.

Perhaps I can communicate better if I get better feedback.

I'll give you an example. Since I began posting about this, I've probably used the word pipeline 40 times. No reply has ever mentioned the word pipeline, to the degree that I'm unsure if any of you know what I mean by that. To me, it's a very common, central concept to filmmaking. It puzzles me that no one else uses that word, in this conversation or elsewhere. You probably wouldn't find an automotive forum where people went for 100 consecutive posts and no one ever used the word "transmission" at some point, I have to wonder. Is some of this confusion coming from the lack of a shared lexicon?

Also, one of my recent posts gave a number of clear examples, in an effort to illuminate some of the thought processes behind Save Point. As far as I'm able to tell, it got completely glossed over, and replies just went back to the same as they were before I bothered to post that.

Indie, you mentioned earlier that you wondered why there was no screening process, and I partially answered that. But there was a screening process, not to shut people out at the low end, but to find people at the high end. I posted a Puzzle here months ago. It was to scan for higher functioning people that could think about things using 5d base logic. I've given the same puzzle to several academics, and they all solved it within a few hints, one of which I just gave you. No one here has even made a single attempt at solving that puzzle. The people I'm really looking for would have both the initiative to attack that challenge, and the ability to solve it. Any writer should already posses the logic tools to understand it. I'm actually surprised that not one person made it through that screen.

I'm out of time right now, but I'll come back later today and try my best to answer the questions that I've glossed over
 
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Since I began posting about this, I've probably used the word pipeline 40 times. No reply has ever mentioned the word pipeline, to the degree that I'm unsure if any of you know what I mean by that. To me, it's a very common, central concept to filmmaking.
I've produced 2 feature films and have never used the word "pipeline" in this context.

And puzzles? Seriously? If you want an academic discussion, hang out with academics. Not filmmakers.
 
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I keep feeling like I'm watching an episode of Shark Tank. And the contestant has this elaborate unfocused idea they can't put into words, and they end up leaving the tank saying the sharks just didn't get it. 🤷‍♂️
But I guess it's us, not him.
 
Nate, you began this by asking why it's nearly impossible to get
people to join a team or group. I got thrown off because your first
sentence was about independent filmmaking. Yet it seems the
group you want to assemble involves a lot more than making films.
The final goal is a film – several films – but for now it seems you're
looking for people to help develop a system new to filmmaking; one
more common in games.

Am I at all on the right track?
 
Perhaps I can communicate better if I get better feedback.
Let me be clear, my feedback is: "You aren't making sense"
I'll give you an example. Since I began posting about this, I've probably used the word pipeline 40 times. No reply has ever mentioned the word pipeline, to the degree that I'm unsure if any of you know what I mean by that. To me, it's a very common, central concept to filmmaking.
If I understand what you're trying to say, in word you're looking for is "workflow". You could call the camera "mothership" forty times for all we care, it doesn't mean we're going to adopt your terminology.
Am I at all on the right track?
I'm making a bet that he's just trying to make a film without having to pay.... like the kind of people who try to sell you a multi-level marketing scheme but using every trick word possible to convince you it's not a MLM as no one falls for that chestnut anymore.
 
Nate, you began this by asking why it's nearly impossible to get
people to join a team or group. I got thrown off because your first
sentence was about independent filmmaking. Yet it seems the
group you want to assemble involves a lot more than making films.
The final goal is a film – several films – but for now it seems you're
looking for people to help develop a system new to filmmaking; one
more common in games.

Am I at all on the right track?
Yes, yes you are

I approached this problem, and saw a solution that I thought might work. My read on it was that the universally accepted approach to independent filmmaking just wasn't working, at all. I am really cautious about elaborating on that. People, including myself, can be easily offended, maybe it's not humanity's best quality, but it's reality and I try to deal with it. I've looked at this same problem for many years, and I've watched the approaches of literally hundreds of people.

I don't think a low budget filmmaker can achieve success of the type I originally set out to find, using the conventional approach. A completely new approach is needed, and I've worked hard to engineer what I think is a practical solution. It is closer to the workflow prevalent in the video game industry. I'll elaborate on that later in the V2 thread.

Thank you for your kind words, I hope some find value or meaning in my perceptions of the world, as acidic as they sometimes are
I'm trying to refine my descriptions so that they make more sense, hopefully soon I'll find the right way to present this, so that others can see why I've become enthusiastic about this potential new route for independent visual storytellers
 
I've produced 2 feature films and have never used the word "pipeline" in this context.

And puzzles? Seriously? If you want an academic discussion, hang out with academics.
I actually mostly hang out with academics, but you know, they aren't great at post production. And a lot of them aren't as interested in making films, television, etc, as let's say for example the indie film forum demographic. Are you certain that intelligence and problem solving have so little to do with film? Personally I would consider those capabilities central to the task we all face.

I was actually surprised that anyone offered pushback on the pipeline thing, it's an incredibly common term. A quick google search should verify that.

Hmmm, hundreds of pages of results for film production pipeline. 25,000 results It must have really caught on after I made it up for these forum posts. The wierd thing is that these search results go back for decades. Of course the term is only used by little known film crews like the ones who made Star Wars, that's likely why I'm the only one who heard of it.


Hey Here's a reference to a production pipeline from 1999, seems like this term has been in use for over 22 years.


Speaking of which, here is a page offering "Mothership" brand cameras, just scroll to the bottom of the page and there they are.


You know, I took the time to watch your entire movie, and you didn't even do a 10 second google search before insinuating that I didn't know what I was talking about.
 
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I took the time to watch your entire movie, and you didn't even do a 10 second google search before insinuating that I didn't know what I was talking about.
Don't go there. Seriously.
You spent 83 minutes watching my movie? Great. I appreciate that. I really do.

But I've spent at least 15 hours over the past few weeks carefully reading every one of your posts.
So do NOT insinuate that I'm not paying attention. And I won't bore you with the hundreds of problems I solved while making my movies.

Perhaps you mean that something is "in development"? Or "in the development pipeline"?

That's a term used more for studios that create a long list of movies - some are done and some are "in the pipeline," meaning still in production, post-production, or pre-production.

Doesn't apply to indie filmmakers like the ones you'll find here so no, we don't use the word "pipeline."
 
I approached this problem, and saw a solution that I thought might work. My read on it was that the universally accepted approach to independent filmmaking just wasn't working, at all.

And yet every year, even in the midst of a global pandemic, we see hundreds of films made by independents. Like their BigBucksMegaStudio cousins, some achieve unexpected success; others turn out to be turkeys; and the vast majority fall somewhere in the middle.

What, then, do you see that's not working?
 
I was actually surprised that anyone offered pushback on the pipeline thing, it's an incredibly common term. A quick google search should verify that.
There's something very h44 about you. Makes me straddle the line between wanting to reach through the internet and slap you silly and wrapping you up in bubble wrap to protect you from yourself.

You have a feel of a media engagement bot I read about... Maybe the IBM AI. I don't remember the name. Kind of reminds me of the bot that went a little odd at first.... and then went off the rails with all that anti jew spew. This whole thing has that kind of feeling where too many things are just that little bit off.
 
I think this is actually back on track of his original question. Why don't people want to join his team or group? :P

I kid, I kid.
 
And yet every year, even in the midst of a global pandemic, we see hundreds of films made by independents. Like their BigBucksMegaStudio cousins, some achieve unexpected success; others turn out to be turkeys; and the vast majority fall somewhere in the middle.

What, then, do you see that's not working?
wellllllll..... this is where my personal opinions veer off from the popular sentiment

I basically respect about 1 in every 1000 "successful" indie films. I have cringed and groaned through every Nicolas Cage and Bruce Willis film for years since those guys became indie headliners. I can barely stay awake through a film that cost less than 10 million dollars. I watched "Zone Wars" yesterday, the number one independent film in the world, and it was so stupid and terrible that I could not make it half way through. I literally started watching youtube videos instead. They had better writing, content, and production values. I actually don't like a majority of actual studio films, which of course have astronomical advantages vs indies.

There may be semantics issues at play here, where we aren't exactly talking about the same thing, but basically I have worked on one indie film after another, and I won't even put my name on them. My experience has led me to a viewpoint where I think it's very rare for a movie to be worthwhile if people don't hit a minimum effort level. In example, it's very important to spend time and effort on casting the roles properly. Almost every indie film I've ever worked on, the director has a script, and starts looking around the room. Ok, my wife is the star, and my brother is the mailman, and this guy from the local dinner theater is the main bad guy, etc. It all sounds good on paper, low cost, no transportation and housing, etc. The problem is that they aren't casting a wide enough net to actually find the right talent for the characters. I see film companies that write 5 movies and the same 6 people are starring in every movie. That's not someone who did the job right. The attitude that any actor can play any character is wrong, it's desperation, leading to compromise, leading to the worst part of the cycle, the emperors new clothes.

Let's look at good casting by comparison. Alan Rickman in the Harry Potter series. His signature look, tone, delivery and veteran acting skills brought a rich dimension to a secondary character. Hans Grueber in Die hard was an exemplary role. Ok, so just for the sake of convenience, I'll use names you know. Lets say you're an indie filmmaker, and you can only afford to hire your cousin. Your cousin is Rob Schneider. You have another guy from your town. You didn't so much cast him as simply call him and ask him to do it. This guy is David Hasselhoff. Now try to imagine Die hard with David Hasselhoff and Rob Schneider. Now realize that most indie films don't have options that good. Are you starting to see my point? How many David Hasselhoff vs Rob Schneider action movies would you want to watch?

Well, Nate, you're being unfair, you can just make a drama film and then you don't need a budget. Ok, sigh, did you see "The Kings Speech"? That was good right? Now replace all the stars with people from your town, so you can't really pull from a worldwide pool to find charisma, chemistry, and talent. You have to take what you can get and hope some of the people that were available just happen to have chemistry. I've personally never seen an indie project do screen tests for chemistry, swapping out multiple candidates to see who clicked. There's a guy they promised a role, and he shows up, end of process. So when you skip all of these "optional steps" you basically end up with something that's way below standard. Instead of a castle, Your King makes his speech next to a hotel swimming pool, etc. Lack of funding hits so many areas of a film so hard, that it's an almost unrecoverable wound.

You know, I'm just talking about one aspect. There are issues like this that affect virtually every stage of development, essentially revolving around a low budget, and it's subsequent compromises. From what I've seen, many of these films can't get even simple things like colorist work right. I've personally gone in and done colorist work for a 150k film where they were just going to skip it. When you skip colorist, you're now at the quality of a reality tv show. I did one a few years ago where they used a BMCC as the primary camera (that's a camera they use as a crash cam in real movies), they decided not to film in RAW, to save money on hard drives. Hard drives are 300 dollars for 8 TB. Because they didn't film in RAW, they couldn't do proper colorist work. So the entire project looked like an HD version of a 1989 dr who episode. They get low end people that don't know what they're doing, and the Dunning Krueger effect runs rampant. It doesn't have to be that way, but on microbudget stuff it almost always is.

They frequently overload the film with tripod shots, shooting entire films with basically no cinematography whatsoever. Then you have to listen to them talk excitedly about their cinematography, and they are talking about how they pointed the stationary camera at something...... Sigh...... I could go on, but I wont. You start getting a trained eye after years, and it just looks worse and worse the more you know what to look for.

Now that's live action films. They suffer so much worse than other types. You really need a drastically higher budget to hit the same quality level in a live action production. 3d animation and 2d animation have their own issues, though they can be more forgiving in many aspects. I have seen both of these types do ok since voiceover artists work cheaper, and can work remotely. This give you access to the global pool, but on an indie budget.

Have you seen the channel "Dust"? It's generally fairly good, other than the actors. There's a problem there too though, where they make a pretty good film, and then it looses money. They drop 80k and end up with 22k in returns. (plus a 1st place prize from the southern Louisiana regional film festival, market value 1 dollar, application cost 2500 dollars)

For contrast I should list some indie films I actually did like and watch.

Palm Springs - 5 million

Minari - 2 million

It Follows - 1.3 million This is the one that I thought made most effective use of a limited budget. It was highly profitable, and not the worst movie ever.

Horror is basically the one area where you can get away with indie budgets, for a lot of reason, including the acceptability of unknown teenagers that can't really act, reduced need for lighting, and tension and interest that can be built mostly using a soundtrack and editing tricks.

Anyway, it's kind of a big topic and I can't fully cover it here.

To give an example of a 10k dollar film, which I think may be the kind of Indie film we are talking about here
Lilya 4-ever was an incredibly sad movie that was highly effective in spite of it's meager budget. If your theme is poverty and misery, you can display that pretty well on a budget. I probably will never watch it again. It makes Schindler's list seem cheery.

A mid level film that I really thought was masterful was "Chernobyl" the mini series. It was a remarkable bit of filmmaking, that relied more on the intelligence of it's direction than big name stars. They didn't pick expensive people, they just went to great lengths to pick exactly the right people, and it shows.
 
I am going to try to draw a simple parallel here. You are trying to get from New York to Los Angeles. The quickest, most efficient, method would be to hire a professional pilot with a Gulfstream G700 (the world's fastest private aircraft) to take you there (2.5 hours). The problem is you lack the ridiculous amounts of money needed for said commission. You have said numerous times throughout this thread, and others, you are "broke", "a slave to poverty", etc. The next quickest route would be to fly commercial (6.25 hours, plus TSA time = 10ish hours). You still can't afford the fare without an investor. You could always drive (41 hours, if you don't stop to sleep), but you don't have a car. And, even if you did, you couldn't afford the fuel. You could take the bus (63 hours), but still can't spring for the $135.00 ticket. When you don't have it, and can't get it, one dollar might as well be a million. That leaves walking. Assume you walk the average human ambulatory speed of 3 mph and walk for a solid 14 hours a day, it will take you more than 66 days. That is where you are. What you are trying to do is hitch-hike to cut down the time. You walk with your thumb out when you don't have a ride, and hope someone will stop to pick you up. It is exceedingly unlikely you will find that one in a billion traveler who happens to be going from New York to Los Angeles and is willing to pick up a stranger. Thus, you hope for a series of shorter rides from good hearted people (your project contributors). In exchange, you offer tutoring services during the ride, with the promise of a possible payoff once you reach your destination. This is what your current business plan sounds like to me.
Unlike many on this forum, I can see your vision, and think it's cool as hell. The downside is, I don't have any interest in it. I've said this many times: I don't consider myself an artist. I don't even think I'm particularly creative. I write because I have "movies" playing in my head and just want to get them out. I don't especially care if they ever get made. Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to sell my screenplays and make buckets of cash. I'm not planning my life around that unlikely outcome though.
 
There's something very h44 about you. Makes me straddle the line between wanting to reach through the internet and slap you silly and wrapping you up in bubble wrap to protect you from yourself.

You have a feel of a media engagement bot I read about... Maybe the IBM AI. I don't remember the name. Kind of reminds me of the bot that went a little odd at first.... and then went off the rails with all that anti jew spew. This whole thing has that kind of feeling where too many things are just that little bit off.
That's interesting, I can only find a few things off about you. For one thing, you keep talking down to me, but I'm an accomplished professional filmmaker that worked for a long series of household name companies. From joke videos I made to amuse myself to released films currently on sale in stores, I've posted so many videos here that I had to stop for fear of oversaturating the category and pushing out other creators. On the other hand, I have seen absolutely none of your work. You've seen me shooting on a Red Epic, on an 18 foot crane, with a crew, at my old mansion, and I've seen you........ talk. Perhaps a demonstration of your skill would be in order before I allow you to continue condescending to me unchecked. Just to reiterate, I'm not looking for a witty remark about how using good equipment doesn't mean anything, I already know that, I'm sure a child wouldn't be able to play my Jem 7 very well. I am looking for any actual proof that you have any film skill even remotely approaching my own. Sorry, is that out of line?, to ask for any credentials whatsoever before I continue listening to you rudely belittle me? Perhaps one of your 3ds max compositions like the one I posted, demonstrating your prowess with ray tracing and cartesian scene composition. Maybe you could upload one of of your physics simulations. Perhaps some of your drone cinematography. Maybe a bit of your particle simulation work. Or barring all that can you just make me laugh one time with a humorous clip you created? I'd also accept character designs, concept art, POC neural research tests, cinematic soundtrack work you created, Stedicam shots, maschinima, 2d animation, matte paintings. Just send it all over. Just anything I've got my own examples of so we can compare apples to apples. I do only have 1400 stock footage shots online though, so don't send more than that, or I'll run out of ones to compare. Oh but one thing, please dont send any footage of obese people wearing cowboy hats, or pickup trucks driving down dusty roads. I'm allergic, and you were kindly looking out for my health earlier, so I know you must really care. It's not like you are talking down to me to make yourself feel important. People on the internet are simply to classy for that sort of thing, and I refuse to believe that such things go on.

Still pretty sure you don't know what a standard issue post production pipeline is. It's basically the same as a workflow. Pipelines are made using "software" and workflows are similar, but encapsulate the physical aspects of film as well, In an all digital post project like my current effort, the term pipeline would be the normal one. In the case of mselmans statement above, we are actually both correct, in that the term is used both in the way she described, and in the way I described, rather than one way or the other. There are also oil pipelines and natural gas pipelines, but those are not film related

I would normally be reluctant to post anything rude, as that's not my normal modus operandi, but since you are repeatedly doing so with no interference, I can only infer that it's considered acceptable behavior here. Anyway, let's see that footage, then we'll talk more about what a limited intellect mentally unwell anti sematic robot multi level scam marketing filmmaker I am.
 
I am going to try to draw a simple parallel here. You are trying to get from New York to Los Angeles. The quickest, most efficient, method would be to hire a professional pilot with a Gulfstream G700 (the world's fastest private aircraft) to take you there (2.5 hours). The problem is you lack the ridiculous amounts of money needed for said commission. You have said numerous times throughout this thread, and others, you are "broke", "a slave to poverty", etc. The next quickest route would be to fly commercial (6.25 hours, plus TSA time = 10ish hours). You still can't afford the fare without an investor. You could always drive (41 hours, if you don't stop to sleep), but you don't have a car. And, even if you did, you couldn't afford the fuel. You could take the bus (63 hours), but still can't spring for the $135.00 ticket. When you don't have it, and can't get it, one dollar might as well be a million. That leaves walking. Assume you walk the average human ambulatory speed of 3 mph and walk for a solid 14 hours a day, it will take you more than 66 days. That is where you are. What you are trying to do is hitch-hike to cut down the time. You walk with your thumb out when you don't have a ride, and hope someone will stop to pick you up. It is exceedingly unlikely you will find that one in a billion traveler who happens to be going from New York to Los Angeles and is willing to pick up a stranger. Thus, you hope for a series of shorter rides from good hearted people (your project contributors). In exchange, you offer tutoring services during the ride, with the promise of a possible payoff once you reach your destination. This is what your current business plan sounds like to me.
Unlike many on this forum, I can see your vision, and think it's cool as hell. The downside is, I don't have any interest in it. I've said this many times: I don't consider myself an artist. I don't even think I'm particularly creative. I write because I have "movies" playing in my head and just want to get them out. I don't especially care if they ever get made. Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to sell my screenplays and make buckets of cash. I'm not planning my life around that unlikely outcome though.

Thanks for your reply, and your complementary disinterest in my project, lol. That's actually pretty funny in it's way. I got a laugh out of this.

You aren't entirely wrong. You have kind of captured the core of my frustration, which is that I have a good plan and don't have the resources to execute it, and I'm trying to jury rig it. My plan is a little better than what's laid out here though. Using your example, I'd say I'm trying to get a couple of freinds to drive me to an investors house so I can buy a car and finish the trip myself. It's been a while since this subtopic surfaced, but I do plan to seek investment, at a time when there are enough people on board, and enough POC generated to make that a viable option.

It's a possibility that some help might come along as we develop it, and as I work and improve the presentation, that becomes more likely. I might for example have a much better chance once a few "cells" are finished. I've been working hard on that, basically solo for a while, and it's quite slow hoofing it, but progress is steady. This last week I had finished AI integration for landscapes, bodies, faces, and buildings, and have moved on to attempting to integrate physics simulated cloth clothing, for flowing robes, capes, dresses that react to wind, etc. It's super boring! I come over here to spar with the forum when I need a break from these endless interface panels. Keeps the mind active!
 
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