crew Why is it so difficult to find collaborators for a project?

[Nate North]

I have to assume that I'm not the only one on an independent film form that wants to make an independent film. If you've ever tried making one, you know that it's nearly impossible to have any type of success without a larger group involved. My question is, why are people uninterested in joining teams or groups? As a lone individual, your fate is sealed, if 1000 of us worked together, there is no question we'd get something published. I bought a product yesterday. 12 people got together and worked full time on it for 3 years. It was great, I paid full price for it. They now have funding for the next product, and everyone is happy and headed for a profitable carreer in the industry.

Here's the clip I watched about their team and project. It's just a simple top down shooter, innovation level 0. It was great, no issues, everyone is happy.

I live in a small town, and neighborhood garage bands are common. People get together and practice for years, travelling 50 miles to a practice spot, to split up 200 dollars a gig, once they are good enough. They spend thousands each on equipment, and hundreds of hours just getting to that point, and everyone shows up for that.

If people are as passionate about making film as they say they are, why is the willingness to team up and commit so fractional in filmmaking, compared to music, which is arguably hundreds of times easier to succeed at (at least in terms of getting a set written and playing it for an audience)? Do you think it would be strange to watch 6 people collaborate and spend for years to build a lemonade stand, and then go over to a skyscraper construction forum and find everyone trying to do it solo with no money?

 

[indietalk]

Totally lost. So you are a film school of sorts helping intermediate level people learn or reach their potential with tools, all while while putting out product superior to what it out there with a collective animation project?

 

[indietalk]

Nate, I've read a number of your threads and posts, and I still don't know what your project is about. It's nebulous to me. The only thing that sticks in my head is that you are looking for people to help you, but I never remember what you are trying to do.

People like succinct and defined, like a movie log line. You need to be able to say it in one sentence:

"I would like 20 filmmakers to each make a 5 minute short that we can stitch into a feature."

"I need actors and talent to collaborate on a comedy series."


When you can briefly define something, people "see" it. Hence, they may be more inclined to be a part of it. Also, in both of my above examples, there is a benefit to the collaborator; they're not just holding up your greenscreen or light stand, rather they can see their part in the creative process. "One of those shorts is the one I made."

Yes please lol! Every time I think I get it, it takes a 180, or a 263.

 

[Nate North]

Also, on the note of "A lot of us still don't understand your project"

I was saying this to scopic earlier, I'm just going to do a clean reboot of that, now that I've had time to listen to a lot of feedback from all of you.

I'll soon post a "What is Save Point V2" thread, and I'll try to apply what I've learned here and see if I can make it a few hundred percent more coherent! lol.

I don't know if anyone even remembers, but that very first thread was actually a terrible explanation. Really bad. I think I even knew it was bad when I wrote it. But hey, this is how the refinement process works.

 

[indietalk]

At some point, ask yourself if you are taking on too much and just want to make a film and work with the people you meet after, which is kind of the core of what you want but your plan is much more elaborate.

 

[CelticRambler]

Somewhere in my lizard brain, the idea of giving up work hours feels crazy

You're mixing with the wrong kinds of lizards !

(Sorry - veering into that reply-with-meme territory that you spoke about before ... )

But this guy (Lenny, lives up the end of my garden, gets very macho when he thinks I'm going to hit on his missus, but owes me a debt now since I saved him from drowning ...) would tell you that chillin' in the sun is an essential part of making your work hours efficient.

 

[CelticRambler]

My real issue is that I can't get seed investment in a rural area, angel investors work with people they meet face to face. I never ever see the face of an angel investor now that I live in the Midwest. ...

So stop banging your head against that wall. If you can't get angel investors where you are, and you can't move from where you are, then you need to find a different model - there are no two ways about it. From what you describe, it sounds like you have a perfectly good "self-improvement" service you could sell, but you're giving it away for free in the hope that karma will eventually send you an angel with a suitcase full of cash. Fair enough: you can continue down that road for as long as you want; or you can take distinct elements of what you've created for SavePoint, turn each of them into a discrete revenue stream, and build a new business case for the macro project from all the micro bits.

 

[Nate North]

At some point, ask yourself if you are taking on too much and just want to make a film and work with the people you meet after, which is kind of the core of what you want but your plan is much more elaborate.

I've thought about it of course. Save Point was actually the final evolution of a long string of ideas that began after I figured out that animation was going to be possible. The first was to make a series of kids books into low grade animated shows, just by myself or with a couple other people. That experiment was "The book of Dragons" by E Nesbit. I made a single chapter while I was first learning 2d animation basics. It's not great, but does tell an interesting kids story. Then I did a lot of research about how well that would actually work out, and thought about it for a while, and there were a number of reasons I thought that wouldn't do well. Basically YouTube has a lot of extra rules for kids shows, and some of those rules limit advertising revenue in a big way. In addition to that, I'd never get to make anything I would personally want to watch, so overall I felt like it was a lose/lose. Second wave was more interesting. I wanted to do a scientific series similar to Kurzegart: in a nutshell. I still like that idea, and it would probably work ok, but as I studied their channel, I was actually shocked by how much of the bandwidth they had saturated. They have nailed almost every aspect, animation, voice, topics, style, and subsequently addressed every major general interest science topic out there. Every time I thought of an episode, I would go over to their channel, run a search, and immediately find the exact episode I'd just imagined, finished, published, and having already run it's course. They are making about 3 million a year on that channel. I still think here and there about doing movie X, Y or Z in this format, but ultimately SP allows me the freedom to do any of those things, so it's not really a necessary choice. Doing multiple films is "built in" and allows me to effectively snowball assets and crew across projects.

There's just a lot of advantages to the new way, meta advantages that make a lot of sense. This is where it gets a lot more complicated to explain, but I'll just talk about one simple aspect. Ok, look at YouTube's revenue model. Lets say I eventually raise and spend 5 million dollars to make a single film. I now have to make that back based on 10 or 20 ads across a single movie. I'm making 1 USD for every 1000 ads, compared to the previous model, where I'd get 4.99 for a single rental. So the profits there are orders of magnitude lower than what people used to earn a decade ago in the redbox era.

This is kind of where Save point pays off, the new format encourages chain viewing, repeat viewing of choice nodes, and gets people personally invested much faster. I hadn't discussed it much, but SP works well as a psychological model. With a conventional film I have to do all the heavy lifting all the time, building interest in my ideas via the normal way. With the CYOA model, viewer interest in the story is sort of automatic, at every juncture there is already the built in hook. What happened because of the choice I just made? They are invested in finding out what happened to THEIR choice, in addition to what is happening in the series itself. every 2 or three minutes, we repeat that cycle, adding a second layer of pinging dopamine loop to the underlying conventional plotlines taking place.

If I do have to scale this back, it will likely be in quality rather than format. In example, if I ditched pro level animation, it's ready to execute now. But that's giving up a LOT. My life would be easy if I made that one sacrifice, but the issue is that I wouldn't really be too proud of the product. I've seen people do it and be very successful, but I just can't get too exited about it.

Here's what that looks like, and I hate it, lol (and BTW this was a 30 million dollar success)

STEINS;GATE on Steam

Developed by 5pb. and Nitroplus, STEINS;GATE was awarded Famitsu magazine's coveted annual Game of Excellence award and was voted one of the most emotionally charged “tear-inducing games” ever made, in a Famitsu poll.　It is a gripping and moving Visual Novel, which has already spawned manga and...

store.steampowered.com

And this is what I want SP to look like, This was a 10 million dollar studio film from South Korea in 2003. In 2021, with a custom build creating a modular workflow, we can accomplish a similar look at a tiny fraction of it's previous cost, both in dollars and man hours.

 

[Nate North]

So stop banging your head against that wall. If you can't get angel investors where you are, and you can't move from where you are, then you need to find a different model - there are no two ways about it. From what you describe, it sounds like you have a perfectly good "self-improvement" service you could sell, but you're giving it away for free in the hope that karma will eventually send you an angel with a suitcase full of cash. Fair enough: you can continue down that road for as long as you want; or you can take distinct elements of what you've created for SavePoint, turn each of them into a discrete revenue stream, and build a new business case for the macro project from all the micro bits.

You make some good points. There's a lot of this I've actually thought through well, and there are areas where I'm still really open to finding a better way. Mostly on the finance and revenue end though. My core goal from the outset is that I've spent over a decade as a filmmaker, and never actually gotten to tell a good story. As time passes, I've realized that I need to find a way to get off of the hamster wheel and take a run directly at the objective that originally inspired me to get into film. Otherwise, what was the point of any of this. It's not one particular story, it's just the goal of making something cool that I can be proud of, that other people can enjoy, and that can be fiscally sustainable.

Within that context, suggestions are welcome. And yeah, I should probably chill out a bit, not sure it's in my nature, but I'll give it a shot!

 

[Sweetie]

I think that one of the limitations of the written word is that you can't always determine the spirit in which they are written. I do tend to rant a lot, even angrily at times, but I find a type of humor in it that may not always come across to audiences.

If you actually got to know me, and had real conversations with me, I doubt you would feel that way. I'm literally one of the most logical and rational people you'll ever meet. I get exited and enthusiastic about the possibilities that are available in life, and I get frustrated as I'm boxed in on all sides by unimaginative people that can't see anything beyond that grey factory punchclock.

I'll tell you the thing about mental health that no one ever seems to realize. Every person in this world is at least a little crazy. I've never once met a completely sane person. Maybe George Carlin. Maybe Joseph Campbell. Explain to me why I shouldn't be frustrated in a world where I've seen people that think the earth is flat given more resources that lets say, Norman Borlaug.

Everyone has differences. Some are more ecentric than others.

You don't need to be ready to book in at the funny farm to be at a point where you're going to benefit from getting help from a mental health professional. I've worked with people who are at the top of the world and those who've are either nearly at or have hit rock bottom. You're right, it's hard to tell with any certanty, even in person but you're swerving all over the place and the signs are there.

Just yesterday I asked siri to tell me I was pretty and she got all confused, she didn't know what I was asking.

The other day I asked Siri why I'm having troubles with women. She sounded unimpressed and replied, "I'm Alexa"

 

[indietalk]

I've thought about it of course. Save Point was actually the final evolution of a long string of ideas that began after I figured out that animation was going to be possible.

The problem is you are lumping all this together into something called Save Point. That's why nobody knows what it is. It's a school? A team? A community? Film? Service? AI house? All? Perhaps some separation is in order. Verticals.

Save Point is the name of the film.
Who gets to work on it?
Save Point Alumni
Who are Save Point Alumni?
Those that graduate from Save Point Academy.

So you have your volunteers at tier 1. Academy. When they prove themselves they gradate and are tier 2. Alumni. At tier 2 they can offer services to others through the SP name, and/or work on the collab if there is a role available. Tier 3 is active workers on the collab project Save Point.

 

[indietalk]

So your promos look like this:

Who wants to join Save Point Academy? You will learn valuable skills blah blah blah with the possibility of working on the animation project Save Point. Or you can simply join to learn and work with others.

That's a very loose description but if you have this grand vision and want to continue, you need some separation.

The "best of the best" work on Save Point.

Akin to:

Film school/graduation/job placement

But... gotta pay people!

 

[directorik]

I gotta say that I do love your ramblings, Nate. And I read them all.

I'm still not clear on what it is you are trying to do. Many of your examples seem to contradict
each other. I want to respond but then you veer off and I no longer understand what you're
going for.

I'm guessing that mostly it comes down to money. You want to make something cool that
you can be proud of but you need more money than you can raise to do that.

That I can relate to!

And you would love to find a group of people who have the same passion that you do
to make it happen. Am I on the right track?

Something else I can relate to.

 

[Nate North]

The problem is you are lumping all this together into something called Save Point. That's why nobody knows what it is. It's a school? A team? A community? Film? Service? AI house? All? Perhaps some separation is in order. Verticals.

Save Point is the name of the film.
Who gets to work on it?
Save Point Alumni
Who are Save Point Alumni?
Those that graduate from Save Point Academy.

So you have your volunteers at tier 1. Academy. When they prove themselves they gradate and are tier 2. Alumni. At tier 2 they can offer services to others through the SP name, and/or work on the collab if there is a role available. Tier 3 is active workers on the collab project Save Point.

It's an interesting idea. I feel like the scale isn't there yet to advertise it that way. Right now what's been happening is that someone will show up with say, a working understanding of After Effects, and I'll chat with them for a few days, and learn where they're at. Using that program as a specific example a common situation is that someone understands how to use it already, but doesn't know how to get results on an expanded 3d stage within AE. So we teach them a few things, and they can then work productively on the project.

What you're describing is actually sort of how it works already. I started to write a lot here, but then erased it. I have to start saying more with less if I'm going to demystify this thing effectively.

Ok, if you watch this video and understand it, it will probably help a lot in terms of understanding what this thing really is. I have to think about all the parts, on every level, so when I talk about it it sounds very complicated, though I don't think it needs to be on the user end. In fact the whole thing is to make a complex process (filmmaking) into a drag and drop affair that's accessible to a much larger group of people than ever before. I'll illustrate -

This is a video of some of the things people have built in Minecraft. Similar to Save Point, the original creators made a very complex 3d engine filled with calculus and function calls and all sorts of things average people wouldn't be able to parse. The end result is a very easy to use modular system of "blocks" that almost anyone could use to create almost anything with no technical knowledge. For many people, the process of building say, a giant ornate city, has become so easy and fun that they gladly create astonishing and epic things that can then be enjoyed by the world at large, it's not seen as a paid position, it's seen as a fun game where people can make cool things together and share them with the world. Save Point aims to do this for animation.

So the big idea behind the scenes here is to build a modular filmmaking system for animation that allows people to build "cells" out of building blocks our system provides. A majority of the eventual content would be constructed as projects by users, and while the Minecraft comparison isn't 1 to 1, it's actually probably the best example I can give.

While a block in Minecraft is a literal block, blocks in save point are things like Matte Paintings, Characters, animations, sound FX, etc. You can see a very basic version of what I'm building in the form of Vyond, which offers a free 2 week trial.

Film is complicated, and difficult. We aim to provide a way, at least in the animated format, that people can approach and learn the core concepts using a system where you weren't overcome with prerequisites and expenses before you could film a single scene at release quality.

Let's say I want to take the red out and film a car chase. That sound fun, I'll just need to -

Buy a few stunt cars - 79k dollars
contact the city and arrange a meeting so I can set up a time in a month to shut down a section of the city to film in - 100k
I'll need to hire a crew of specialists, stunt drivers, mechanics, large scale greenscreen setup, etc. - 120k
and on and on

This type of thing has the effect of killing off almost every good film idea before it even starts.

Now if you look at what's happening at Vyond, you pick the road from a menu, you pick the character from a menu, you record the voices, add a car, and animate it all with drag and drop commands. You can make a car chase in 2 hours for 0 dollars, at about the quality of South Park.

The core of Save Point, behind the scenes, is building this program and it's "blocks" or assets as I usually call them. Upon initial completion it should be quite similar to Vyond, but at a quality level closer to what you see in the Wonderful Days trailer in the post above. I may be overly ambitious in terms of the quality level we can hit, but a lot more than South Park IS possible, and I can see the path to that clearly.

I'll give some very simple examples

here is a block of a building, This one has a background in it, but in the system it would be pre rotoscoped, and could be drag and dropped into a scene that needed a building. I used one of the AIs to create around 100 of these blocks this week

This is a character block, This head can be added to any body block, another modular block type, lipsync is automated, as shown in the lipsync demo video in the videos category

I won't link a bunch of audio samples here, but there are currently thousands of audio blocks ready for use, you just drag and drop a thunderstorm or wind or footsteps, etc.

These are aerial establishing shot blocks, they can be used to establish a geographic location. I filmed these in a real time engine for the project, and they still need to be mcjarkanized, a process where other footage is formatted as line art by yet another AI

Is this helping anyone understand what's going on here? It's minecraft, for movies, allowing speed building, which allows sprawling CYOA films by collaborators that don't have to spend money or be in the same area

 

[indietalk]

And all these people are volunteering?

 

[Nate North]

And all these people are volunteering?

You're a bit non specific, do you mean all the people in the minecraft video? People paid an average of 50 bucks each so they could go and do years of labor at their own expense to build the things shown there. Minecraft just made it easy for them to create, and the rest just happened, nobody had their hand out. They wanted to create, and when someone paved a road for them, they took off down that road at full speed.

That's what happens when you think like I do, and have a budget. I don't have a budget, and that reality will convert the best idea in the world into a constant struggle. The thing is that I feel like a lot of us in the Indie film world struggle with that same problem, lots of energy, intelligence, talent, maybe even a good plan, but no money. So I began describing a path where we could work together and build a new system for ourselves that made some of the need for funding obsolete. I thought, and still think, that once I grasp how to correctly present this idea to the masses of unfunded creatives out there, people will volunteer, to help me build a ladder we can all climb.

 

[indietalk]

I don't think I'm being non-specific I think, that you think that, proves the point of how confusing this is. Are any Save Point people getting paid?

 

[Nate North]

I don't think I'm being non-specific I think, that you think that, proves the point of how confusing this is. Are any Save Point people getting paid?

No one, including me, has made even a single dollar yet. I'm trying to assemble a team to work on a system that produces a product that we can earn money from. Barring investment, there's no way for me to pay people until at least one chapter is made. I looked into crowdfunding, and I need investment to succeed at crowdfunding.

 

[indietalk]

So there's one answer to the conundrum. You're asking everyone to come join your big idea for free. And maybe they don't have the same big idea. It's your baby and you think everyone gets it and wants to be a part for free, for the future, for the big payoff. I live in NYC. So many filmmakers have tried this. "My idea is so great, you will want to be a part of this journey!" "For...free!"

 

[indietalk]

I look forward to your revised tagline/objective.

 

[Sweetie]

No one, including me, has made even a single dollar yet. I'm trying to assemble a team to work on a system that produces a product that we can earn money from. Barring investment, there's no way for me to pay people until at least one chapter is made. I looked into crowdfunding, and I need investment to succeed at crowdfunding.

I'm also in the boat as rik, just when I feel I'm understanding what you're trying to accomplish, you throw me a wobbly. On one hand it sounds like you're trying to accomplish a watered down software play that's a combination of what Adobe, Unity, Unreal and multiple others are trying to accomplish in the media space. On the other hand, it sounds like you're trying to start up some sort of independent mini-studio. There are a lot of cashed up companies competing for both these spaces.

I occasionally consult to someone who's trying to set up a sort of mini local based mini-studio. No matter how often I've encouraged him to find another path, he insists. In the years I've known him, he's pissed most of his sizable inheritance away on this adventure. I hope he makes it, but the odds are against him.