Sony VG10 moiré

chilipie

chilipie

Pro Member
indiePRO
I know quite a few people on these boards are considering buying the VG10 when it comes out. I came across this footage from it and thought it could be quite interesting: http://vimeo.com/15261804

The problem seems at least as bad as it is in video from the Canon DSLRs, if not worse. Would definitely put me off choosing this over a Canon, especially considering the already higher price and lack of progressive frame rates.
 
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I've got one on pre-order.

Whilst the moire is a cause for concern, that really is a worst-case scenario. The 'Beautiful Bali' Sony footage looks good though and I like the camcorder form-factor. Supposedly the HDMI out is uncompressed which means you can pipe it to a Black Magic or NanoFlash (or in my case, an Atomos Ninja).

BTW - the VG10 shoots progressive and wraps it in a 50i/60i 'wrapper' - when you get it into Vegas or Final Cut, it's progressive (with no conversion or loss of quality).

If we had more money for the camera I'd probably go for an AG-AF100 but really, for what you get the VG10 is impressive value.
 
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Murdock said:
I didnt watch the vid... but I bet its the "wobble effect" on action shots?? Someone kick me if im wrong
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i want to kick you but ur right :lol:

wobble/ripple/wavey etc.

EDIT: it doesny have to be action shots. it tends to happen with camera movement. thats y
it happens in action shots a lot bc they usually contain fast camera movement.
 
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oh, you guys missed it, its not global shutter effect, look at the ROOF..that awful.. rainbow thing gong on..

kinda like this..
150px-Moire02.gif
 
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gooberman said:
what is this "moiré"? im confused. I didn't see anything wrong with the video.
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If you look at the roof of the building you will see this moiré effect, happens on objects that high in detail (usually lines that are close together from what i've seen) as far as I know this is an artefact of the compression the camera has done. I believe this is a separate problem to the 'jello' or rolling shutter effect where the frame appears to 'wobble' on quick pans, I'd be interested to see if this cam is effected by this problem however.
 
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What i see in wheatgrinders picture IS the moire effect. i see ripples, i see waves, i see wobble.

If it is unrelated to the rolling shutter effect, okay, i didnt know that.

But the moire effect is definitley when u see ripples, waves, wobbles etc.

EDIT: someone confirm to me that it doesnt have to do with camera movement so i can edit my earlier post. i wouldnt want to post any wrong information. but why does it matter where the effect comes from? from rolling shutter or otherwise if it is still the moire effect?
 
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Wheat's right - the moiré effect isn't the same thing as the jello effect, which is caused by having a rolling shutter.

While the compression of the video may exacerbate the problem, it is caused in the first place by laying one grid (the photosites of a camera sensor) over another (in this case the tiles of a roof) - wheat's animation shows exactly the kind of a problem this causes. Effectively, the sensor isn't of a high enough resolution to cope with the high-frequency of the pattern.

The problem is particularly bad in video from the Canon DSLRs because of something called "line-skipping". The sensor in these cameras is much, much higher than is needed for HD video, so instead of wasting power reading every line of the sensor, only every third line (if I remember correctly) is actually recorded. As the lines are squashed horizontally and recomposed vertically to create the final image, the filling of the holes in the image creates the moiré.
 
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@chilipie:

i see.

all this time i was just looking at the end result of moire and not caring where it came from. i knew abt line skipping and the jello effect but i called both of them moire issues.

like i said, im not super techy. i learnt something new today :D

@the ones wanting to know what moire effect was:

sorry abt the wrong info. so if im getting it right this time, the ripples, wobbles, waves cause by line skipping are called the moire effect. the ripples, wobbles, waves caused by rolling shutter are called the jello effect/rolling shutter.
 
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Ernest Worthing said:
@chilipie:

i see.

all this time i was just looking at the end result of moire and not caring where it came from. i knew abt line skipping and the jello effect but i called both of them moire issues.

like i said, im not super techy. i learnt something new today :D

@the ones wanting to know what moire effect was:

sorry abt the wrong info. so if im getting it right this time, the ripples, wobbles, waves cause by line skipping are called the moire effect. the ripples, wobbles, waves caused by rolling shutter are called the jello effect/rolling shutter.
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Should someone kick me??
 
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Murdock said:
Should someone kick me??
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hahahaha i was waiting for that!

almost 800 posts and i confuse one issue slightly and this is what i get *sigh*

but im a man of honor. u, sir, are allowed one free kick if we ever cross paths.
but no sucker punches, otherwise i just might go all wrath of khan (montalban and shatner combined) on my fellow tos trekkie :lol:
 
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Btw, this is why you're not supposed to wear a pin-stripe suit or striped tie, for on-camera interviews/newscasts/presentations, etc.
smiley_learn.gif


The moiré issue has been around longer than video, too. It was something that print publications had to deal with, when doing image colour separations while making plates.

Kinda funny to see it still around, tbh. :)
 
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