THE IMPORTANT QUESTION

[TheOpusFuller]

Alright, I'm posting this discussion in the Newbie thread because I think this is one major issue that needs to be looked at and flushed! I think the newbie section is the perfect home for what's about to be talked about. Every new independent filmmaker and every veteran should be involved in this little chit chat!

So, in my opinion, the issue that needs to be discussed here is what do we do once the film is finished.

For all you new filmmakers out there, for all you filmmakers who have been at this for years, how do you make someone give a damn about the film you have just completed. How do you make them interested enough to invest their time and money to purchase your dvd from your website and sit down and watch it!?

I think that is the question.

A lot of people, including myself make a movie. They make a damn good movie. But then it sits, collects dust and dies.

Think about it. Your name is John Doe and you just made a movie. It can be the next Pulp Fiction for all you know. But the average person out there in the world has no clue who the hell you are or what the hell your movie about. I think the important question here is how do we make that average person in the world curious as to who you are and WANT to find out and watch your movie. What can we do as filmmakers to make that person WANT to spend 10 bucks on your dvd and watch that movie.

I think this is worthy of discussion and I think all of us filmmakers Newbies and Oldies should chime in and flesh this out.

*Let's keep this DIY style. I don't want to bring in Hollywood or major distribution deals.... If you want my reasoning for this, just ask and I will gladly explain why we should start modeling our film distribution as a DIY model and stop thinking we have to rely on Hollywood to get anywhere in the world when it comes to Film distribution.


Thanks,

The Opus Fuller
www.theopusfuller.com
www.twitter.com/theopusfuller

 

[Buddy Greenfield]

I think setting out to make a great film when you just can’t is also a trap many Indies can fall into.
I’m not saying don’t make a good film, but I see too many small budget films that come off like exploits into artistic “seriousness”, yet seem to completely forget that a film might also entertain.

On the other hand, films like…

Polutrygeist – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VQxYMHX-YE
Machine Girl - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A0nv5wtVbE&feature=related
Hide and Creep - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0cdHGDdUag

.. (And many others) have likely all made money, are popular by title, define themselves and find their audience at more or less 1st glance, and are greatly spread by word of mouth.

They do not forego the element of entertaining a genre niche audience or cult following (Within the means of their budget) in favor of a yet another invitation to ho hum through the garden of never ending contrived fest darling wannabe horseshit that will just never be.

I feel that few can or ever will make a "great film" (but should try), yet it doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't also apply their craft to making a fun film that might become popular.

-Thanks-

 

[ad2478]

After reading all this healthy discussion i think if i make a conclusion that "A good film + Good Marketing" is the answer so i am not wrong .

AM i ?

 

[ad2478]

Interesting points, Buddy.

1 - I wish there were people who were as passionate about
marketing and promotions as I am .

3. Again I agree. Engaging the people is what we filmmakers need
to do.



I hope to find that person who is as dedicated to promoting indie
films as I am to making them. I know we all do.

I would have loved to work with you if i was in US . As far the other point is concerned engaging more people means creating more awareness about your product and its always good !

I have few important question. and i will like all the participants to give their views on it.

1) when we talk about marketing the only tool by which we can reach the international community is internet. How can we utilize it with the least cost? i mean suppose if we are not willing to go for amazon etc because we have to pay in advance something to most of the sites, so what should be the alternate route? are we only left with facebook and orkut type social sites ??

2) Suppose if i have a good film then other then internet what can be the other alternate paths to promote my film in any other country? any creative ideas??? any solutions??

Personally Marketing is my most favorite subject and i will love to hear creative ideas about it.

 

[ad2478]

Athough I can understand your point, when it comes to promotion & marketing, et al, I want someone who's in it for the money, if you know what I mean.

Alcove the problem is that even if you get a guy who is willing to make marketing strategy etc for you but still you need something in your pocket for printing posters etc, or you want that marketing guy to take out his money for your film??

He can provide you his services for free but what about the other expenses like printing posters, organizing an event etc??

 

[ad2478]

One thing I will add: don't forget to send out a bunch of screeners to key DVD-review sites and get your film reviewed.

Can you kindly tell me few sites like those? and do they give reviews free of cost? And are these sites devided according to genre also? like one site for reviews of horror films, one for comedy??

 

[Alcove Audio]

Alcove the problem is that even if you get a guy who is willing to make marketing strategy etc for you but still you need something in your pocket for printing posters etc, or you want that marketing guy to take out his money for your film??

He can provide you his services for free but what about the other expenses like printing posters, organizing an event etc??

It all comes down to considering your film a PRODUCT. As I mentioned, many forget about life after the film is made; they blow the whole wad on production, try to convince someone like me to do audio post, color correction, or whatever for free, and the film is done. But then what? I agree with the folks here and on other filmmaker sites telling newbs to just get out there and shoot; that's how you learn. You work hard, you make lots of mistakes, you have a few successes, you gain experience. But then you reach the point where you feel that your skill set can create something to sell to the general public. And in my opinion this is where 99.99% of filmmakers screw it up; they spend too much time being artists and not enough time being entrepreneurial. If you value your vision so highly, and you feel that your talents can create a marketable product, why are you skimping so badly on its manufacture and failing to consider the costs of marketing? Because, like it or not, its the called the Entertainment Industry; it's all about manufacturing and selling a product to the general public, and the general public has high expectations.

 

[WalterB]

"But you’re right. This thread is now about making a good movie and
no longer about marketing the finished film."

"you have to get back up off your ass and put it out there"

Indeed: nobody buys something they haven't heard about!
Selling is about marketing!
To sell you have to let people know the movie is out there.
The question is how to let people know without spending 1000's of $/€ (or any other currency with a solid value: a 1000 Zimbabwian dollars won't even buy you a grain of salt, so these dollars don't count).

If you can't buy time, you will have to spend the time yourself. Like Aceofspades is doing: call around and try to make the 'stores' interested. (On a no cure no pay basis would be nice; they don't have to spend money if the movie does't sell).
It will make the movie slightly more visible, but more (?) important available.
There are things that can go wrong: your marketing can be perfect, but if you can't deliver (in quality (aka crap) or quantity (unavailable)), demand will drop after a while.

Maybe there is a general marketing plan we can sketch in here?
Anyway plans and planning is what you need before you spend your time and money.

Let's say:
- define and target your audience
- define the way you want to sell (which stores, online, etc)
- how are you going to promote the movie? (filmfestivals, reviews, blogs, youtube trailers, other media-attention, teamup and organize packaged screenings (2 to 4 movies together) yourself, going to the market in Cannes, hyping your sexy or scandalous cast, networking, offer a cool band to make their musicvideo and use bits of your film, running around naked with the title painted on you?)
- when will it be available? (this gives you a timeframe for the marketingplan: in an ideal situation there is already some demand on the day it's for sale.) Try to build up 'tension'. Anyway communicate when and where you can get it. A make sure it can be bought at that time and place. Maybe start with accepting pre-orders 2 weeks in advance. It will give you a little insight in the result of your efforts, but it might get you disappointed when pre-order and first sellings are close to 0.
- don't give up. If you give up, nobody will sell it for you. Don't change strategy to soon.
- don't be Don Quichot. If really nobody wants it after a year of pushing... it's time for a new project or another approach.

Maybe you will wait and see what the response will be like on filmfestivals; this gives you some time to think about the next step.

DISCLAIMER:
not all examples in this post might work.... use on own risk!!!

 

[aceofspades70]

Update: I called the stores back that were on my list today. I now have 2 more stores that will carry my film on consignment for a 60/40 split. They are both out of state which is to my advantage, it's exposure outside of my area.

Also, if I haven't mentioned this before, get on the horn and call your local radio stations and newspapers. See if they'll give you a one time opportunity to "pimp your product".

The radio station where I grew up put me on the morning show for 3 hours and yacked about everything. The local paper gave me a blurb along with coverage from the paper of the town where I shot the film. Heck, they need news, why wouldn't they?

 

[danjfiore]

That's a great point you made, Ace. Pick up the phone!

Too many people think that if they send emails or make a MySpace/Facebook page they should be getting people pouring money into your pockets. You have to pick up the phone and you have to be willing to go out and talk to people face to face.

As much as people want to say, "I'm an artist, I make films and that's my job - to be creative," I got news for you: you're in a sales industry. Albiet you are in one of the few industries where you get to make what you sell, but selling is a major part of this journey of ours and if you aren't comfortable going out and "pimping your product," then you're going to be showing your films to friends in your garage for the rest of your life.

Youtube, vimeo, facebook, etc. these are valuable things to have, but they will not alone get your film sold. You have to put your face and your voice out there first and foremost.

 

[aceofspades70]

making a low budget movie: admirable

actually completing it: miracle

showing up in person to represent your product instead of sitting on your ass and hoping people will take notice: priceless.




Oh, and I took the liberty of making a list of review sites since someone had asked about it. Just a few...not a long list or anything. Reviews are important you know.



* A Nutshell Review [Stefan S]
* Blog & Bones (Screwface)
* Blog Of Bones (Screwface)
* High Def Digest (Blu-ray) [Tom Landy]
* High-Def Digest [Tom Landy]
* High-def Digest [Tom Landy]
* Cool Awesome Movies
* eFilmCritic Reviews
* Film Critics United
* The Jaded Viewer
* Arrow in the Head
* Movie Mavericks [Jason Rugaard]
* Project-Blu [Nate Boss]
* Screen Rant
* IGN [Chris Tilly] (Blu-ray)
* IGN [Chris Tilly]
* Ain't It Cool News [Vern]
* Beyond**************
* Blu-ray.com [Martin Liebman]
* Briandom [Brian Orndorf]
* Channelnewsasia.com (Gareth Goh]
* Manifest - Das Filmmagazin [Hasko Baumann] (German)
* Dread Central [Foywonder]
* DVD Talk
* DVDtalk [Brian Orndorf]
* DVDTOWN [David Van Der Haeghen]
* DVD Verdict [Michael Rubino]
* DVD Verdict (Blu-Ray) [David Johnson]
* FilmJerk.com [Brian Orndorf]
* Film School Rejects
* Film School Rejects [Brian Salisbury]
* THR Heat Vision [Boris Kyt]
* InSing.com
* MikeyMo.nl [Mikey]
* Monsters & Critics [Jeff Swindoll]
* Moviehole [Clint Morris]
* J!-ENT [Dennis Amith]
* The Sci-Fi Movie Page [Rob Vaux] (DVD)
* TerrorHook.com [Rick L. Blalock]
* Your Stupid Minds

 

[danjfiore]

Another Horror-centric site to add:

Bloody Disgusting (they're relatively big, especially as far as horror news goes) and they usually show off lesser known stuff that gets sent to them. Or at least it seems they do.

 

[danjfiore]

Also, if you want to check out a decent way to use Facebook or similar sites to market, check out the interesting campaign on FB for a thing called "rekill." As far as I can tell it's for a scifi animation film? Not really sure, but the idea behind what they're trying to do seems pretty unique and I'd recommend it to everyone in this thread since it sort of ties in with what we've been talking about.

 

[Scoopicman]

Why haven’t you paid to see any of my damn good movies?

Let's see.... I attempted to visit the DARK CRIMES website, but it seemed to have vanished. I couldn't find the movie on Amazon or anywhere else. As I said on an a thread from last year, I would like to see it. I would be happy to pay or trade you for a copy of my latest flick, EXILE.

even we indie filmmakers
don’t look for or buy those types of movies. And my question
asking what it takes to get US to buy an indie film was not
answered by anyone.

Some of us do. My collection of "those types of movies:"

A closer look reveals some familiar covers...

If anyone is interested, I'm always up for a trade.

Yes, there a lots of indie films being made. But are they really good? I know that every filmmaker out there feels that their film is great, deserves to make millions and receive Oscar nominations, but lets face it, most of them are CRAP.

Absolutely right. We all see the hard work that went into our projects, but the viewer doesn't care about how you handled the obstacles. Very few, if any indie features are really good, let alone great. As I finished each one, I thought all my features were great, but then I received that dose of reality, called "viewer feedback." Though I'm my biggest fan, my opinion doesn't make a movie better. "Good, bad or great" is for the viewer to judge.

I think Quentin Tarantino got it right in that video clip when he says, "Make Reservoir Dogs..." I mean, if you make a super kick ass movie, it's going to practically sell itself and get the recognition it deserves through word of mouth.........I really think people lack telling a good story. They also lack a good, steady paced trailer. If you tell a good story and sell that story within a good minute long trailer. It will grab someone's interest and they will buy the damn film...

Yep! All the marketing and schmoozing won't matter, if the movie sucks. You need a movie that looks good, sounds good and more importantly, is not boring. Which all segues into....

You have to market your work also. I think that's absolutely necessary. You have to screen your work, that's absolutely necessary. You have to get your work reviewed, that's pretty much necessary...........The sad truth is...most indie films suck. They look like dirt, they sound like crap, and the story and acting leave much to be desired.........And I find it so interesting that these crappy hackwork films are like 'Why can't we sell our movie? I don't get it...we rock!'...and I'm like...'no you don't...your film looks like piss.'


..........First thing you want to do...start with a great script, and make a great looking film. Then worry about marketing and selling it. If you can't even be bothered to put your camera on a tripod and actually boom your actors...then you shouldn't even be *thinking* about your film 'making it.'

........which segues into an attitude and work ethic to get it out there....

Update: I called the stores back that were on my list today. I now have 2 more stores that will carry my film on consignment for a 60/40 split. They are both out of state which is to my advantage, it's exposure outside of my area.

Also, if I haven't mentioned this before, get on the horn and call your local radio stations and newspapers. See if they'll give you a one time opportunity to "pimp your product".

The radio station where I grew up put me on the morning show for 3 hours and yacked about everything. The local paper gave me a blurb along with coverage from the paper of the town where I shot the film. Heck, they need news, why wouldn't they?..................Oh, and I took the liberty of making a list of review sites since someone had asked about it. Just a few...not a long list or anything. Reviews are important you know.

* A Nutshell Review [Stefan S]
* Blog & Bones (Screwface)
* Blog Of Bones (Screwface)
* High Def Digest (Blu-ray) [Tom Landy]
* High-Def Digest [Tom Landy]
* High-def Digest [Tom Landy]
* Cool Awesome Movies
* eFilmCritic Reviews
* Film Critics United
* The Jaded Viewer
* Arrow in the Head
* Movie Mavericks [Jason Rugaard]
* Project-Blu [Nate Boss]
* Screen Rant
* IGN [Chris Tilly] (Blu-ray)
* IGN [Chris Tilly]
* Ain't It Cool News [Vern]
* Beyond**************
* Blu-ray.com [Martin Liebman]
* Briandom [Brian Orndorf]
* Channelnewsasia.com (Gareth Goh]
* Manifest - Das Filmmagazin [Hasko Baumann] (German)
* Dread Central [Foywonder]
* DVD Talk
* DVDtalk [Brian Orndorf]
* DVDTOWN [David Van Der Haeghen]
* DVD Verdict [Michael Rubino]
* DVD Verdict (Blu-Ray) [David Johnson]
* FilmJerk.com [Brian Orndorf]
* Film School Rejects
* Film School Rejects [Brian Salisbury]
* THR Heat Vision [Boris Kyt]
* InSing.com
* MikeyMo.nl [Mikey]
* Monsters & Critics [Jeff Swindoll]
* Moviehole [Clint Morris]
* J!-ENT [Dennis Amith]
* The Sci-Fi Movie Page [Rob Vaux] (DVD)
* TerrorHook.com [Rick L. Blalock]
* Your Stupid Minds

More good advice:

Some more interesting stuff regarding distribution (from today ironically):
http://www.slate.com/id/2242943

Here's more info on another avenue we briefly spoke of earlier in this thread: http://www.netflix.com/SubmitFilm

I think (and this is a very general statement) that there are a LOT more low-budget horror films than dramas, comedies, and scifi (features, anyway). So there's certainly more to sift through. But with the dramas and comedies, there is very rarely a lot of people interested in seeing them unless they are of great quality. People seem to be so much more forgiving in terms of horror.

No doubt. Genre (or finding your target audience) makes a difference. We sold over 400 DVDs of THE AWAKENING, on our own, before finding some Foreign Distribution. The key was finding a niche base through superchick fan sites. Same with my "Unofficial" OASYS DVD tutorial, which has done even better numbers, but via technical forums.

On the other hand, my more costly sci-fi flicks, TERRARIUM and EXILE hardly sell any DVDs through my websites. I'm reliant on outside distribution to bring anything in. That, or I really haven't tapped the right sites, yet. What is your target base???? Something to think about.

My money feels like fuck Disney’s Serial Killers on Ice PG 13 wide appeal watered down joke ass nonsense. It’s not my problem that a big budget has to be recouped. My problem is finding exploding tits on a foul mouth demon ready to bust a hole in this world and fuck it.

I don’t want to say “Oh great, another big douche-athon Saw flick for my little brother to roll his eyes at!” I want to be able to tell people “I think some MFer escaped a mental institution to make this, and the cinematography is kick ass too!”

Uuuuumm....

Damn, Buddy....

You do make an interesting point. Definitely worth quoting!

I myself have purchased thousands of dollars of no/low budget films over the years

In that case, Filmy, don't forget to peruse the DVD page of my SITE.

I have no shame.

 

[bird]

Hells bells, Mike! That is one big mofo of an indie collection.

This is a great thread with some epic posts. I really cannot add anything other than my personal strategy. There is a similiar thread, On topic, running over at Indieclub where I had mentioned my current piece and how I am resolved to the fact that I will most likely *only* be able to sell copies of my animation (and this is considering the issue of piracy as well) with the addition of a cel in the packaging(which I feel is kinda innovative).

Anywho, Rocketcar (Chip Street) suggested I take a look at this site: http://www.sitasingstheblues.com/ for "Sita sings the Blues".
The animator, Nina Paley, actually weathered some of the legal issues I totally expect to address, but she also set up a model for merchandising beyond the marketing of the film (because she believes the imagery itself belongs to the culture from which it sprang). Sure, she still makes a bit off ancillary reproductions, but the *artwork i~e the film* is in the common trust.

So, this may not work for everyone, but it seems to work for Nina Paley.

My personal experience confirms audiences are generous and want to support artists. Surely there's a way for this to happen without centrally controlling every transaction. The old business model of coercion and extortion is failing. New models are emerging, and I'm happy to be part of that. But we're still making this up as we go along. You are free to make money with the free content of Sita Sings the Blues, and you are free to share money with me <love that. People have been making money in Free Software for years; it's time for Free Culture to follow. I look forward to your innovations.

 

[directorik]

We’ll have to make the trade happen. I’m sorry I had forgotten
about your offer.

It’s great to see a collection like that. You are clearly someone
who spends money to support your fellow filmmaker. Do you think
you are the rule or the exception? I feel you are the exception. I
hope I’m wrong.

I suspect (and I have no data to support this) that there are
200,000 people out there who are either making movies or talking
about making movies. Imagine if each of them (and that
includes every one of us who post here) would buy just ONE “indie”
movie a month. Say a movie offered by CreateSpace,FlickRocket or
IndieFilmDepot. 200,000 movies a month at $10 would generate
$24,000,000 a year in sales. And if 200,000 movies a month were
purchased from those sites the market would change.

 

[TheOpusFuller]

Scoop - I just want to say that's an awesome collection man! I have one, but nowhere near that size.

Okay, going back on topic. I think it really is that simple. Write a compelling story. Seriously, if the story sucks, people are going to have a hard time getting through just a couple minutes of it. It has to be a story that sucks you in. It has to be dynamite! A lot of independent films that I have seen suck. Again, I'm convinced people are so worried about getting their movie to look like it was shot on film that they don't even worry about the important things. TELLING A GOOD STORY. I think this is key, and I think this is step 1 into making a movie and having it be a success...

1. TELL A DAMN GOOD STORY.

From then, we move onto the next step. Production value... Quality of the movie. Of course you want it to look reasonably good. For little to no money you can rent a camera, barrow one from a friend. Heck, rent a HVX slap a letus flip lense adapter on their and snag a couple nikon lenses... And if you're new to the entire filmmaking thing, go out, buy a 100 dollar flip mino and go around your town/city and shoot some shots. Get used to framing shots and getting a handle on shot composition.

2. You don't need to throw 10,000 toward your film.

Once you are finished with your film, cut a trailer. Make it 30 seconds. Make it have an impact enough where it's going to hook the viewer.

3. Cut a dynamite trailer!

and this brings us to our next topic.... Social Media

Now, for the marketing. I'm going to stick to my guns on this. Facebook, Twitter, Myspace, youtube, building your own website, viddler, blogtv, etc. These marketing tools are absolutely free. You can reach literally thousands of people/fans/etc. You have to put in the work. Get home from your day job at 6pm and spend the next 5 hours jumping into forums. Talking about filmmaking with people. Engaging with others alike. Posting on twitter. Advertise your film but in a classy way to where you aren't spamming people.

I think what I said above is the ticket. And by think, I know....

 

[aceofspades70]

Ladies and Gentleman, I feel this thread has more than explained itself.

So, why don't we all start putting our efforts into the exposure of what we have to offer the public.

And last but not least...

"200,000 movies a month at $10 would generate
$24,000,000 a year in sales. And if 200,000 movies a month were
purchased from those sites the market would change."

I agree. If that many people bought my movie, not only would I use it to make another, I would buy some of theirs.

I'm done here.

 

[The Force]

Wow! may God bless the day I found this site. I've obviously been in the dark regarding many subjects I've read so on this forum. You guys are doing a great job. You have no idea how much I've gained in my 3 days here. Yes just 3 days.

And BTW, I'm Nigerian living in Spain. My love greetings to you all.

 

[Buddy Greenfield]

So how about a for sale thread that gives title, brief explain, genre, running time, link to trailer and purchasing info?

-Thanks-

 

[aceofspades70]

So how about a for sale thread that gives title, brief explain, genre, running time, link to trailer and purchasing info?

-Thanks-

Okay, I thought I was done.

Good idea Buddy, but the question still remains, how do we get millions of viewers to this site to see them?