Besides making shorts in series for web series and possible independent TV series on small cable networks, how else can shorts be made for profit?
Brain Storming Ways To Make Shorts Profitable
- Thread starter Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC
- Start date
I've worked with both publishers and writers since the mid-nineteen nineties and attend their conventions. I am also on science fiction writers forums. Recently, a small magazine publisher of science fiction joined our group to reach out to writers.
Publishers start out like filmmakers-small. There's always one out there for writers starting out.
This is a thread for brain storming, as the title suggests.
Who else has ideas?
Merchandising features is common in business plans. Thus, I am proposing a low cost way of doing it with shorts.
Also, as I said early on, a fellow writer suggested the short story idea to build the fan base to increase interest and sales in a short film. Knowing this is also recommended to promote and create a market for a novel by established writers in this industry, I stand behind this suggestion.
Publishers start out like filmmakers-small. There's always one out there for writers starting out.
This is a thread for brain storming, as the title suggests.
Who else has ideas?
Merchandising features is common in business plans. Thus, I am proposing a low cost way of doing it with shorts.
Also, as I said early on, a fellow writer suggested the short story idea to build the fan base to increase interest and sales in a short film. Knowing this is also recommended to promote and create a market for a novel by established writers in this industry, I stand behind this suggestion.
Well, I actually addressed that about five posts into this thread.
But again - what does this have to do with making shorts profitable?
You're describing building a base of paying fans around a franchise, as welsh_gambit pointed out. Shorts may be a part of that, but they're certainly not the focal point, and they aren't the profitable part. They're the commercials for all the other stuff your selling... short stories, t-shirts, posters, buttons, baked goods, whatever. This isn't about making shorts profitable, it's about building a business.
Now I agree that's the way to go, but I also think people don't understand how big an undertaking that is. Building a fan base around a property takes years and tons of work, and if it's just you doing it it means you need to learn to be a marketer, promoter and business expert, in addition to becoming a good filmmaker. Any one of those things is a career for most people - hell, there's multiple disciplines within each that make up entire careers.
Now you're adding becoming a good enough author to get published to the list - that's not necessarily making things easier. It might be a viable way to go, but it also means you're taking some time away from the other disciplines you need to get good at - so you need to balance that with the likelihood of succeeding, and the benefit of doing so. Will writing a short story and getting it published in a magazine grow your fan base faster, easier, more effectively than producing a series of youtube videos will? Will the hours you spend writing, and editing, and submitting to publishers be more effective than if those hours were spent working any other job and the money earned put towards promoting your videos with advertising?
You don't seem to understand, or at least aren't acknowledging, that becoming a published author (even just in magazines) is something many people devote their lives to - and few of those succeed. How do you expect to succeed at it where others fail, when it's not your primary focus, or your first passion?
Last edited:
IDOM, you are making all good points. But, in the small business world of Indie filmmakers and Indie publishers, one person wears many hats. That is why the publisher of a science fiction magazine is also the head of the advertising department. I've written some entertaining vampire shorts in my time that I turned into a book. So, adopting my screenplay into a short is doable. It is just a matter of staying focussed in the reality of the story.
So how long do you think this method might take?
Since no one here (including you) purchase short films
and none of us (including you) knows anyone who pays
to watch or purchases short films why do you think people
who purchase magazines with a short story they like will
buy a short film based on that short story?
I asked before and I expect you will avoid the question the
second time but here goes: do you have any examples of a
writer writing a short story for a magazine, building a fan
base and then getting those people to buy a short film?
You used to purchase ads in these magazines. Did you become
a fan of any of the short story authors and then buy a short film
they made from a story?
Since no one here (including you) purchase short films
and none of us (including you) knows anyone who pays
to watch or purchases short films why do you think people
who purchase magazines with a short story they like will
buy a short film based on that short story?
I asked before and I expect you will avoid the question the
second time but here goes: do you have any examples of a
writer writing a short story for a magazine, building a fan
base and then getting those people to buy a short film?
You used to purchase ads in these magazines. Did you become
a fan of any of the short story authors and then buy a short film
they made from a story?
I think its clear that you cannot sell views to short films on the internet.
You MIGHT be able to sell your short film to cable channels, but the shorts channel didn't last long on dish, but looks like its still available on direct tv and att cable. so meh..
I do see IFC and other channels running shorts on occasion.
That seems like a tiny market and not going to be really viable for anything but sundance winners.
What are some other methods of getting money from your work?
You MIGHT be able to sell your short film to cable channels, but the shorts channel didn't last long on dish, but looks like its still available on direct tv and att cable. so meh..
I do see IFC and other channels running shorts on occasion.
That seems like a tiny market and not going to be really viable for anything but sundance winners.
What are some other methods of getting money from your work?
Honestly, as much as I'd love to think there is a market for shorts per se, I really don't think there is.
The analogy about magazines and compendiums I think is flawed. People don't buy a magazine or compendium for one specific person normally. Sure, you can get people interested, but by and large, they're buying the magazine for the breadth of it's content.
I think the only way shorts will be revenue generators (not to say profitable even) are on things like IndieFlix. It's similar to the magazine concept, you're paying for a spectrum of content. I believe they pay for per-minute watches, the value of each minute depends on the number of subscribers and minutes watched (and their costs, profit, etc).
I love shorts, but I just don't see myself paying for them, even on a micropayment scale. A subscription to something like IndieFlix though, gives me access to much more, and I'm able to watch as many as I want.
Something like that, where shorts are a part of a bigger service provided, seem to me the best method.
CraigL
The analogy about magazines and compendiums I think is flawed. People don't buy a magazine or compendium for one specific person normally. Sure, you can get people interested, but by and large, they're buying the magazine for the breadth of it's content.
I think the only way shorts will be revenue generators (not to say profitable even) are on things like IndieFlix. It's similar to the magazine concept, you're paying for a spectrum of content. I believe they pay for per-minute watches, the value of each minute depends on the number of subscribers and minutes watched (and their costs, profit, etc).
I love shorts, but I just don't see myself paying for them, even on a micropayment scale. A subscription to something like IndieFlix though, gives me access to much more, and I'm able to watch as many as I want.
Something like that, where shorts are a part of a bigger service provided, seem to me the best method.
CraigL
That's probably the only way you're likely to get people to actually pay for shorts directly in any form. Unfortunately it's only likely to be truly profitable for the company that does the aggregating. Compare it to something like radio play and songs, where artists get a small royalty for every time their song is played - there was an interesting blog post about that recently:
"My Song Got Played On Pandora 1 Million Times and All I Got Was $16.89, Less Than What I Make From a Single T-Shirt Sale!"
While he didn't make much from streaming radio, he did make over $1500 from traditional radio play in the same quarter. Not bad, but not a huge amount of money either - certainly not a full income on it's own.
Unfortunately anything similar for short films is likely to be worth even less for individual filmmakers. Unlike songs, people don't watch shorts over and over. They don't leave them playing in the background all day while they work. There's also not multiple channels in every major market playing nothing but shorts. So even if you are on a subscription service or channel that paid per view, it's likely to total up to a very small amount of income, and certainly not enough to make it 'profitable' to make short films.
Current.tv actually started out somewhat along that model, and the channel used to be pretty great in the early days. 90% of the content was 'user generated' - you could make a short news or doc piece about whatever was interesting to you, submit it to their site, and the top rated ones on their site went into rotation on the channel. Once in rotation you got paid a fee each time it aired. Unfortunately they apparently weren't able to make the channel format profitable, so it gradually shifted away from this model until it eventually was just a fairly standard news/talk show format. Also, from the standpoint of the creators of the short it wasn't that great a deal - you'd make money if you got on the channel, but if you didn't you were out of luck, so it was basically spec work.
"My Song Got Played On Pandora 1 Million Times and All I Got Was $16.89, Less Than What I Make From a Single T-Shirt Sale!"
While he didn't make much from streaming radio, he did make over $1500 from traditional radio play in the same quarter. Not bad, but not a huge amount of money either - certainly not a full income on it's own.
Unfortunately anything similar for short films is likely to be worth even less for individual filmmakers. Unlike songs, people don't watch shorts over and over. They don't leave them playing in the background all day while they work. There's also not multiple channels in every major market playing nothing but shorts. So even if you are on a subscription service or channel that paid per view, it's likely to total up to a very small amount of income, and certainly not enough to make it 'profitable' to make short films.
Current.tv actually started out somewhat along that model, and the channel used to be pretty great in the early days. 90% of the content was 'user generated' - you could make a short news or doc piece about whatever was interesting to you, submit it to their site, and the top rated ones on their site went into rotation on the channel. Once in rotation you got paid a fee each time it aired. Unfortunately they apparently weren't able to make the channel format profitable, so it gradually shifted away from this model until it eventually was just a fairly standard news/talk show format. Also, from the standpoint of the creators of the short it wasn't that great a deal - you'd make money if you got on the channel, but if you didn't you were out of luck, so it was basically spec work.
Rik, I cannot give a specific example of a short story that turned a short film into a major seller.
I do know that the exposure a magazine gives a short story or a film being reviewed in a magazine is the next best thing to getting the film aired on an independent film channel on cable TV.
You do build a loyal fan base from the magazine exposure.
Just this month I just filled a small order for Barnes and Noble on my vampire short stories eighteen years after it appear in fantasy magazines.
If you have a family member too who can write a short story version of a film you have, that can help you too with exposure.
I also got a hand written note this month from a fan asking for new books on the vampire heroes. So, don't dismiss the power of the printed page.
I do know that the exposure a magazine gives a short story or a film being reviewed in a magazine is the next best thing to getting the film aired on an independent film channel on cable TV.
You do build a loyal fan base from the magazine exposure.
Just this month I just filled a small order for Barnes and Noble on my vampire short stories eighteen years after it appear in fantasy magazines.
If you have a family member too who can write a short story version of a film you have, that can help you too with exposure.
I also got a hand written note this month from a fan asking for new books on the vampire heroes. So, don't dismiss the power of the printed page.
Mike, I am not dismissing the power of the printed page. I got my
start selling a short story to The Twilight Zone Magazine and met
Harlan Ellison who became my mentor.
I am asking about ways to make shorts profitable. If you have
moved on from your original topic to discuss short stories that’s
fine - conversations change. You seem to be doing well selling short
stories. I do not believe that fan who wrote you that note would
pay to watch a short film you made. If I’m wrong then you have
found a way to make shorts profitable. Are you pursuing that
method? Are you making short films from your vampire short
stories? Are you priming your fans to buy or pay to watch the short
films? Have they expressed interest in buying your films?
start selling a short story to The Twilight Zone Magazine and met
Harlan Ellison who became my mentor.
I am asking about ways to make shorts profitable. If you have
moved on from your original topic to discuss short stories that’s
fine - conversations change. You seem to be doing well selling short
stories. I do not believe that fan who wrote you that note would
pay to watch a short film you made. If I’m wrong then you have
found a way to make shorts profitable. Are you pursuing that
method? Are you making short films from your vampire short
stories? Are you priming your fans to buy or pay to watch the short
films? Have they expressed interest in buying your films?
Rik,
I did make a short film on my vampire shorts and called it, Very Special Agents. My books are actually shown in the film and the characters in the film are based on my vampire shorts.
I never made it for profit, until a few years ago. It is available on BigStar as a VOD download.
I did make a short film on my vampire shorts and called it, Very Special Agents. My books are actually shown in the film and the characters in the film are based on my vampire shorts.
I never made it for profit, until a few years ago. It is available on BigStar as a VOD download.
Wow, that's pretty awesome a fan asked you to make more! I bet you got a real buzz from that.
Back on topic, kinda. You could create a mobile game of the short (this does technically fall under franchising your short) But you could make a basic, simple game but the annoying ads you get would be links to but your shorts on DVD?
Back on topic, kinda. You could create a mobile game of the short (this does technically fall under franchising your short) But you could make a basic, simple game but the annoying ads you get would be links to but your shorts on DVD?
Games involve working with a game company to put up the funds for computer programmers, graphic designers, and packagers. A game company will not undertake that expense, unless the short is based on material with a pre-existing fab base because they want their money back.
There arevery few independent game companies because of the startup expenses.
But, we are brain storming and thank you for the suggestion.
There arevery few independent game companies because of the startup expenses.
But, we are brain storming and thank you for the suggestion.
Another merchandising suggestion for Indie filmmakers that I should follow myself, is to go to weekend bars and clubs to find talented singers and groups building their own following to have them do an end credit song and help them with a music video as an exchange of services. People just starting up need to network together to build up their infrastructure.
Very few? Wikipedia lists nearly 200 indie game developer here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_indie_game_developers
and as it says at the top those are just the ones with 'notable' games. Apple had about 275,000 registered developers last year. Many of those are individuals making apps in their spare time, and many are independent game developers. 'Startup expenses' for developing an iphone game are currently $99 to register as an apple developer, plus the cost of your computer, so there are a lot of people giving it a shot - it's certainly cheaper and easier than filmmaking.
If you have a good idea I don't think it should be too hard to find an independent developer to build something like an iPhone game. Also, there are many existing game engines which you can build games on so that most of your work is put into designing the theme of the game rather than programming the mechanics of it.
But unfortunately that doesn't really get you anywhere - because games are just like films in that if you don't put in the time to market them it's not likely anyone will ever know about them. It's not like you create a game, put it out there, and people just come flocking in to play it. So now, in addition to dividing your limited time between developing your films and developing your game, you're dividing your time between marketing the game and marketing your film. If it's one franchise there's hopefully a large amount of crossover, but I bet you'll be lucky to get 50% of the people who are interested in both rather than just one - so there will inevitably be some dilution of your marketing efforts.
So, yes - it's a good idea in terms of another way to build a franchise and hopefully a fanbase for such. I think it's totally achievable. But it's also a big task to undertake, and has to be weighed against other ways you could be using spending the same time.
It's ok, a single marketing slang word on it's own isn't anything to worry about. Now, if you find yourself stringing multiple words together into sentences you may want to consider asking your doctor if Markafil® is appropriate for you...
"Current thought-leaders agree that a paradigm shift has occurred - the value proposition that now emerges from audience engagement efforts leveraging synergistic cross-over and demographic alignment in social networks between content creators is significant; providing both agile marketing opportunities and improved returns in the growth of one's social footprint, while significantly eclipsing traditional media efforts."
dang it, I actually understood that and think its a valid point.... too late for me to be helped!
I've published short stories. Have you?
I have sold scripts and been hired to rewrite other's scripts. Have you?
I have an agent. You?
I actually know people at that network you keep posting about. I have done work for them. Have you?
Do you do anything besides post second-hand info from these Hollywood players you know.....none of whom get your project antwhere?
But what happened with your idea that if Roger Corman could sell something to Syfy, then you easily could too? It's not like him being a icon who has produced hundreds of movies over 50+ years and given many current A-listers their start in film gives him THAT much advantage over someone like you with no professional achievements.
Or that meeting you had with one of the financiers of LORD OF THE RINGS? That didnt go anywhere?
The next time you post what some "player" you are tight with tells you about selling stuff to Syfy, I will email the people I worked for over there to confirm that "info".
The only time I have known someone to spend money on shorts as a consumer is renting one those dvds with multiple horror shorts. You may be able to pull this off with other genres but horror seems like a great one with the built in b movie market.