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misc Why do TV shows keep attention better?

sfoster

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Why is it 180 minute movies seem long as hell and in dire need of editing, but I can spend an entire week watching 180 hours of 24 and then want another season?
What exactly is going on that a movie has way more thought, time and money put into it and yet is boring and long with 1/10th of the running time of a show?

Anyone have any good resources or opinions on structuring of a TV show - not just episodes but seasons as well...
Like is every single episode hitting the same notes at the same time if I were to go back and mark everything down for a season of 24?

Big moment at 12 minutes, 30 minutes and the end of the episode?
What about season after season after season, do they all just keep repeating the heroes journey?
 
omg we're talking about youtube videos now 😄 😄 😄

Nurses Office GIF by Melanie Martinez
It’s all advertisement related, or unless you think all of this is created for non profit.

Is that what you think is happening here lol?
 
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It’s all advertisement related, or unless you think all of this is created for non profit.

Is that what you think is happening here lol?
So what is your point, that advertising costs money? lol?

What you're saying is so BACKWARDS man

I haven't seen a commercial in a tv show in a decade, and everytime I go out to a movie theatre, guess what, COMMERCIALS before the movie starts playing. you're talking so fucking backwards, it is MOVIES that have commercials and TV shows that don't. what youre saying was correct like years and years ago
 
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So what is your point, that advertising costs money? lol?

What you're saying is so BACKWARDS man

I haven't seen a commercial in a tv show in a decade, and everytime I go out to a movie theatre, guess what, COMMERCIALS before the movie starts playing. you're talking so fucking backwards, it is MOVIES that have commercials and TV shows that don't. what youre saying was correct like years and years ago
So advertising is pointless? Gee you would think adds wouldn’t exist to this day then lol

Most people watch content and absorb adds, there are few that are even thinking about it outside of tv/film critics. The money comes from products, not art. I don’t really know how else to explain this simplicity lol

People that are busy working regular jobs enjoy their shows, and watch them on regular tv because that is the only free time they have, and yes commercials come with that. Most people aren’t sitting at home binge watching on Netflix, they are too busy and not analytically thinking about the content or why. (Or paying for a subscription (which is the same as commercially driven to view, it is all driven to get you to pay)

I say believe what you will, consider me wrong, I could care less lol
 
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Did Bud Lite / AB lose 5 billion in two weeks due to an advertisement decision? (I think it’s stupid to boycott, but it’s just how it is) Advertising rules above all...this isn't just my own mind splattering nonsense, I am honest and open of thoughts though. Nobody is above selling a product, every company and everything (in business) makes a product to sell, and the customer is TOP priority. I don't care if you are Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, whoever, you are always selling a product. Art comes as a benefit (if lucky) after that fact. Otherwise it just turns into ones and zeros on youtube with 2 likes in 15 years (trust me on that) lol

I am absolutely certain that if @Nate North had a passion to make money instead of art, he would surpass Elon Musk's wealth. Thankfully, that isn't the case!
 
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Why is it 180 minute movies seem long as hell and in dire need of editing, but I can spend an entire week watching 180 hours of 24 and then want another season?
What exactly is going on that a movie has way more thought, time and money put into it and yet is boring and long with 1/10th of the running time of a show?

Anyone have any good resources or opinions on structuring of a TV show - not just episodes but seasons as well...
Like is every single episode hitting the same notes at the same time if I were to go back and mark everything down for a season of 24?

Big moment at 12 minutes, 30 minutes and the end of the episode?
What about season after season after season, do they all just keep repeating the heroes journey?

The question might be: Why are some things good and some things bad?

And the answer is way more complicated, I think, than it seems it should be. But I don't think it primarily (and I may be wrong) has to do with structure, with acts and beats and arcs and such. In fact, writing from these things, as the basic units of drama and fiction, may be the problem, may be the recipe for bad and mediocre fiction.

I was talking with my Sister about this last season of Picard, and she was wondering why they would put so much time and effort and expense into making everything (acting, effects, etc.) great, and then neglect the writing. Don't they read? She asked.

And I thought, and said, They're doing, I think, the best they can, and it's not horrible. But think that there just aren't that many people around that can do it, that can write talented fiction.

Anyway.
 
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Perception. One long ass movie is like Thanksgiving dinner, TV is like snacking all day. Same amount of food.
 
Perception. One long ass movie is like Thanksgiving dinner, TV is like snacking all day. Same amount of food.
i think there's more going on here.

For example.. I watched about 40 hours of stranger things, show was great, then they did a fucking movie for the finale, a 2 hour 20 minute episode and i stopped watching like 75% of the way through. If they had done two separate episodes i bet i would have watched them both, but one long ass episode and i was bored to death and turned it off, something MUST have changed with the pacing and beats by switching their format up. I was like 42 hours into this show and just stopped watching with half an hour left
 
I guess I should pop in a little more often... Interesting back and forth. LOL.
What about season after season after season, do they all just keep repeating the heroes journey?
I've done a LOT of what mlesemann suggested/recommended you do over the years with a many many movies and quite a few of my favorite television shows.

I won't get into a detailed discussion but yes... You nailed it with the above statement in your post that started all this. Stories are fractal in nature... Yes, the events change as you tell the story but EVERY story element -- depending on the kind of structure you use -- is simply retold within the context of that particular plot element.

Doesn't matter what you're using... The best stories (in my humble opinion) go through the same structural steps whether you're using Acts, Sequences, Plot Points, Scenes, Beats, etc. I do however, think it's the actual WRITING and ACTING that elevates a particular story to the point that I actually PAY ATTENTION. I say this because I've seen what I believe to be terrible dialogue acted out by an amazing actor completely keep my attention.

Of course when both the writing and acting are stellar? We're glued to the screen. We invest ourselves until the end.

But back to your statement... Yes. Most structure is all the same whether you're using The Hero's Journey or whatever else is out there. Me personally? I've never felt that any of these structures nailed everything I've seen in my favorite films and television shows so many, many years ago, I decided to create my own basic story structure as a simple baseline to begin any story.

It's not a cookie cutter formula by any means... Just a way to begin and a PLUG IN those great ideas that make you want to write the story in the first place.

Most of these are very similar but I do think plenty of them leave things OUT that I feel need to be IN every great story but that's just me. Suffice to say... The best structural elements of every great story seem (again, just my opinion) to be repeated in every structural element that was used to create the story but elevated as the story progresses albeit a little more dramatic than the structural element before.

To go further? Yes, the entire series with all the episodes can easily have it's own structural process too.

Don't believe it? Take any great movie and I believe MOST of them will repeat the same structural elements in each act but simply within the context of that act and what that act tries to convey at that particular time in the story.

So I do believe you're on the right track. To have either noticed or guessed that these elements repeat themselves over and over again in the same story is a great first step to understanding how great stories are told.

Again... Just my opinion.

*EDIT: I forgot to add... I think a lot of the better television shows were/are written much better than movies are written today. I just finished a binge of THE SOPRANOS -- the entire series. Still holds up and written much better than most movies I've tried to sit through for over a decade now.
 
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I guess I should pop in a little more often... Interesting back and forth. LOL.

I've done a LOT of what mlesemann suggested/recommended you do over the years with a many many movies and quite a few of my favorite television shows.

I won't get into a detailed discussion but yes... You nailed it with the above statement in your post that started all this. Stories are fractal in nature... Yes, the events change as you tell the story but EVERY story element -- depending on the kind of structure you use -- is simply retold within the context of that particular plot element.

Doesn't matter what you're using... The best stories (in my humble opinion) go through the same structural steps whether you're using Acts, Sequences, Plot Points, Scenes, Beats, etc. I do however, think it's the actual WRITING and ACTING that elevates a particular story to the point that I actually PAY ATTENTION. I say this because I've seen what I believe to be terrible dialogue acted out by an amazing actor completely keep my attention.

Of course when both the writing and acting are stellar? We're glued to the screen. We invest ourselves until the end.

But back to your statement... Yes. Most structure is all the same whether you're using The Hero's Journey or whatever else is out there. Me personally? I've never felt that any of these structures nailed everything I've seen in my favorite films and television shows so many, many years ago, I decided to create my own basic story structure as a simple baseline to begin any story.

It's not a cookie cutter formula by any means... Just a way to begin and a PLUG IN those great ideas that make you want to write the story in the first place.

Most of these are very similar but I do think plenty of them leave things OUT that I feel need to be IN every great story but that's just me. Suffice to say... The best structural elements of every great story seem (again, just my opinion) to be repeated in every structural element that was used to create the story but elevated as the story progresses albeit a little more dramatic than the structural element before.

To go further? Yes, the entire series with all the episodes can easily have it's own structural process too.

Don't believe it? Take any great movie and I believe MOST of them will repeat the same structural elements in each act but simply within the context of that act and what that act tries to convey at that particular time in the story.

So I do believe you're on the right track. To have either noticed or guessed that these elements repeat themselves over and over again in the same story is a great first step to understanding how great stories are told.

Again... Just my opinion.

*EDIT: I forgot to add... I think a lot of the better television shows were/are written much better than movies are written today. I just finished a binge of THE SOPRANOS -- the entire series. Still holds up and written much better than most movies I've tried to sit through for over a decade now.
Yeah I'm going to do this beat breakdown with the 24: Legacy series (aka Black 24) and see what it reveals
The writing of the action in the pilot is so phenomical.

What is everything I should keep track of?
opening/closing of subplots, introduction of new characters, deaths, world changing events, personality changing events, minor/major/lethal conflicts

Any other important beats I should write down?

---

Edit to add, to deans credit, I was watching this hulu show, and the 'commercial' breaks do ramp up a lot of suspense, and then come back to the same exact scene with all of the suspense gone so it can ramp up again. lol. funny without actually having a commercial in there. So yeah there is a bit of extra push in SOME shows, but the most popular shows of recent years are Game of Thrones and Stranger Things, neither of which use that mechanism.
 
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I would write it ALL down beat after beat after beat... Write it down any way you need to write it down in order to understand what it is that you're seeing and understanding.

Then? Once you've done this for say... Four or five episodes? You SHOULD start to see PATTERNS. Find the patterns and analyze the hell out of them.

Try to then figure out HOW you can use these patterns for your own story.
 
My overall point is the real money comes from hooking viewers into eventual advertisement, look up any of these shows and see where the real money comes from. Its all created to make money from products. Just because there isn't a commercial in between the show, doesn't mean the writing isn't deigned to keep you focused to eventually lead to a product. Google any major show and the advertisements that came from it. The money from subscription sales is much like how a newspaper used to work, you bought a newspaper, but the newspaper made their real money from the adds.
 
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My overall point is the real money comes from hooking viewers into eventual advertisement, look up any of these shows and see where the real money comes from. Its all created to make money from products. Just because there isn't a commercial in between the show, doesn't mean the writing isn't deigned to keep you focused to eventually lead to a product. Google any major show and the advertisements that came from it. The money from subscription sales is much like how a newspaper used to work, you bought a newspaper, but the newspaper made their real money from the adds.
Okay i decided to take you up on that challenge and found this

It says they got $135 million from merchandise, did zero product placement, and generated 2.2 total billion in revenue for Game of Thrones.
 
Okay i decided to take you up on that challenge and found this

It says they got $135 million from merchandise, did zero product placement, and generated 2.2 total billion in revenue for Game of Thrones.
Did they generate that from digital subscriptions? Even you can do the math that it doesn’t add up. (Again, most people are watching in tv and working regular jobs (soaking up adds)

I am all for asking for a show writer (preferably fired now) that can come clean about writing style :) Digital subscription sales don’t make each production house the money, it comes from products.
 
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typical internet argument

Person 1: provides source
Person 2: fake news
It’s not like I am trying to win an argument here lol, it’s just how it is. Writers focus their craft to achieve goals, tv writers develop their craft to get as much advertisement dollars as possible, I’m not saying it is their passion, but it is their goal as a money maker for “others”
 
Look George Lucas is the biggest offender of making movies for products, even the 80s movie spaceballs mocked his methods. Again, a different approach (for movies), but same overall goal.
 
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Again, a different approach (for movies),
Movies use the same approach. You think ET just really liked those Reese's Pieces? Product placement is a given. Really has nothing to do with the question at hand. In fact I'd much rather see real products than fake. They take me out of it. If someone is on Facebook, believable. On FaceNOOK, cheeesy! While drinking that COOKY COLA in the red can. 😂
 
Look George Lucas is the biggest offender of making movies for products, even the 80s movie spaceballs mocked his methods. Again, a different approach (for movies), but same overall goal.
Another ancient reference from Dean Jay... george lucas, star wars and space balls.

Dude you really are still iving in the 80s

80S 1980S GIF
 
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