Why do even the smallest films cost thousands?

WYG1Productions

WYG1Productions

Exactly what the title says, I don't get it.
We are producing our first film on a little over $1000, I don't understand where all the big bucks come in?
Personal cameras have come a long way, and so has digital recording.
With a good story and a small crew I don't see why something like what we're doing can't compare to something you might see at Sundance?
Can someone explain to me where the real cost comes in, and is anyone going to take us seriously even if the movie is good?
 
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Well, just off the top of my head (depending on the size of your crew-and assuming you're paying your cast the going union rate)"

Cameras
Lighting
Sound Equipment
Editing Equipment
Talent payroll
Payment for insurance for talent possibly
Licences/permissions to shoot in places (or leasing a studio)
Insurance for said shooting in locations or studio
Costuming
Props
Food(generally talent would like to be fed-and generally it's a little more than Peanut Butter sandwhiches-usually small catering

More if you are paying someone to do your film editing/sound editing.

Just off the top of my head, I'm sure there's more :)
 
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Let's forget about the obvious expenses such as salaries for the technicians and actors.
Even if everyone works for free, have you ever tried to shoot with a permit? The permits are generally free, but to get one you are REQUIRED to buy liability insurance, which will set you back many thousands of dollars. Many major cities now require coverage of $2-million (It used to be $1-million), plus you are required to hire off-duty policemen for traffic control, and a fire inspector to check your electrical cables...

As for "taking you seriously" (your words), with a small budget...the short answer is "probably not". If you don't have a "name actor" in your movie, it's hard to get someone
to even look at it, let alone BUY it.

My wife and I have produced EIGHT feature films...all on budgets of around $2500.00
...and I can tell you from experience how hard it is to get a distributor to even LOOK at
our films. We personally have three friends who are each sitting on films with million-dollar
budgets...all action films... that they can't sell, because there are no "name"
actors in the films. Two of them have been seeking distributors for over 2-years.

Are there exceptions to the rule? Sure. But even an Oscar-winning indie film such as
"The Hurt Locker" barely makes back it's production cost.

But let's face it, all of "us" filmmakers are dreamers. Miracles DO happen once in awhile,
and at very least we love the process of actually MAKING our movies whether they sell
or not. That's what keeps us going.

The trick to it all is to never go it debt making your film. If you only have a thousand
dollars, don't spend five-thousand...because chances are you'll never make a dime on
your film anyway.

As for our own films, all eight have been distributed in some fashion...largely by small
distribution companies. BUT, none of them have ever paid me a DIME in royalties (which
is another story all by itself). (Here's our stuff click here)

Have fun...
 
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Tinalera said:
Well, just off the top of my head (depending on the size of your crew-and assuming you're paying your cast the going union rate)"

More if you are paying someone to do your film editing/sound editing.

Just off the top of my head, I'm sure there's more :)
Click to expand...

We are the writers, actors, directors, and editors.
So paying those people isn't necessary:)

None of what anyone said is exactly encouraging, but we will do this regardless.
Thanks :)
 
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Hey man, even if you fall under the category of "micro budget" or "zero budget," which in my book is anywhere from $0 - $10,000, you'll realize that a bunch of little things just add up. You might not have a name actor you're paying the big bucks, or a ton of sweet gear you're renting, but the "little" stuff like catering, buying cables/cords, transportation to and from locations, set dressing, and makeup will eat up thousands of dollars in no time. Why do you think that even podunk indie films have whole departments with dozens of personnel each devoted to things like making sure the actors get from one side of the lot to the other? Although, that could easily be attributed to the degenerative disease known as "being an actor."
 
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WYG1Productions said:
We are the writers, actors, directors, and editors.
So paying those people isn't necessary:)
Click to expand...

Not necessary, true, but this shouldn't be discounted entirely as a part of a budget. I call it the 'shadow budget' - what your film would cost to make if someone had hired you, or given you a budget to make it. Personally I think it's important to keep track of this so you have a realistic understanding of what production costs, especially if you ever hope to actually get paid for your work. How big is your cast/crew? 10 people? Even at minimum wage with 8 hour days that's $600 a day for your real production costs - more realistically figure $25/hour and 10 hour days and you're looking at $2500 a day. With skilled pros you can figure 3-4 times that. So where your shadow budget lies depends a lot on how skilled and experienced your crew really is, but it's much much higher than the $1000 you are spending out off pocket - and in any case it should be obvious why budgets can easily get high fast.
 
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ItDonnedOnMe said:
in any case it should be obvious why budgets can easily get high fast.
Click to expand...

i guess i meant more why is it necessary...
seems like the "indie scene" is flooded with sub-par crap that cost a few hundred thousand to produce.
seems like a good chunk of the budget goes towards luxuries like catering etc.

as far as cast and crew. there's three of us that officially run the shop, but via networking and shaking hands i've met dozens of people who don't want to get paid minimum wage, and dont need to be trollied from location to location.

idk, it's just money guys, some people just wanna make movies.

is the mindset really money based, money = success?
i'm sorry but if "mumblecore" can gain momentum, i think any jackass with a few bucks and a handy cam can soar....

but what the heck do i know? i'm just a jackass with a handy cam and a few bucks...
i appreciate the advice from everyone here.
 
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There's only a few stories that can be told well with a tiny budget. It can be done, but stuff costs money and people that are good at what they do get paid or it.

I wouldn't exactly call catering a luxury, more of a necessity. Even if it's cheaper food, having or there keeps everyone on set happy and the production on time.

Consumer cameras have come a log way, so have professional cameras. Take the same story and shoot it twice. One shot on film or a high end digital like RED or an Alexa and another with a handy cam or even a 5D, the good camera with people using will lo amazingly better. Why should an audience pay to see your movie shot on a flip when Pirates of the Caribbean looks the way it does and a ticket costs the same price.

Sure you can sometimes find an entire crew that will work for free. Chances are they aren't professionals, they're either beginners or hobbyist because 50 weeks a year/40 hours a week they're working something unrelated because they have bills to pay and kids to feed. I admire small productions thy find the funds to pay people, they're probably going to make a technically better product than you because pro's get paid.

A three person cast and crew might be able to pull something off, but it won't be as good as a 50 person crew with good leadership where each person only has one job and can focus completely on one thing and not be scattered and distracted by everything else.

Like it's been said, locations permits and insurance all cost money.

A List actors make what they do for a reason. 1, they can act. Sure there's undiscovered talent, good luck discovering and usually developing it. 2, built in advertising. Hiring Leonardo Dicaprio for $20 mil vs Joe Doe for any amount, even free, is a great idea. That 20 mil down payment probably means an extra 50 at the box office.

Also, is your $1000 budget covering everything? Do you already own the camera and equipment do you already have a computer and software for post? Is your mom cooking a feeding you and paying for that food, are the other two Guys involve paying their gas and fast food? Are you laying rent or does someone own the house your shooting in? Who's paying for the electricity? While you may only be spending $1000 on this project, if you've already paid for or own absolutely anything your using in it then technically it's not just $1000, it's more and you're just renting from yourself or donating.

I'm sure there's a lot of waste in Hollywood, but to say that anything with a budget higher than $1001, having a crew bigger than 3, and paying and feeding the people that are probably spending months on the project is a waste is nuts. Money doesn't always equal success, but it sure as hell helps.

Now, make your $1000 movie. That's awesome, for real, and good luck. Remember to save as much as you can for festival fees after your done. Seems like most are right around $50, or 5% of yor budget per entry fee.
 
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As far as I can figure it, we're discussing the cost of quality. Quality is a combination of talent and technique.

There are plenty of folks with talent who just won't bother to work hard at their craft, believing that talent is enough. Then there are those who work their tails off, learning every technique out there but who don't have a vestige of talent. Both types will only get so far, but never achieve any major successes.

Now we come to those with talent who will expend the time and effort required to learn and perfect their craft - developing their technique. A very large portion of technique is paying attention to the smallest details. The other is selecting the proper tools to accomplish the various aspects of the specific craft.

As small independent filmmakers and people like me in the support crafts we are often working with minimalist budgets. The smaller your budget the more DIY you are going to have to do. You are going to be doing a lot more preproduction and spending endless hours tracking down, working through, accounting for and assembling the smallest details.

It's those tiny but very important details that make for good filmmaking. Now, I've worked enough "real" jobs to have a very firm grasp on the real world. Happy people work harder and work smarter. On a micro-budget project how do you keep those involved happy? You pay their transportation costs. It's bad enough that they are working for free, but to have to pay their own way to get there? Next, they should be well fed and have a passable craft table; come on, PB&J and pizza doesn't really cut it. These costs alone could easily eat up $1,000 for a five (5) day shoot.

Now lets come to a subcontractor like myself. It cost me over $50,000 to isolate and sonically treat my rooms. Not counting the cost of a new computer I spent over $2,000 upgrading software this past spring; that doesn't include purchasing new software. My mic collection is worth over $5,000, and I would like to add more, a lot more. This is just the tip of the iceberg of the cost of running my business. Add into that my years of experience. (I'm not bragging or complaining, just stating facts.)

I expect to be paid when I work. I have to pay for my $50k room, my sound system, my mic collection, my software, computer, electricity, water, heat, AC, etc. plus a family to support. I have the proper tools and years of experience behind me and I can do a better job on the audio post of your project than you can. But if you want the use of all of my tools and have access to my years of experience you are going to have to pay for it.

Now apply that criteria to all of your crafts people. How much attention did you pay to make-up? Hair? Wardrobe? What about the production sound? Was it some unpaid teenaged PA holding a DIY boom-pole with a Rode VideoMic somewhere in the general vicinity of the actors, or was it a thoroughly professional boom-op swinging a $2,200 Schoeps shotgun in a $600 Rycote blimp covered by a $200 dead cat on the end of a 20' graphite internally wired boom-pole connected to a $6,000 Sound Devices mixer/recorder combo operated by another consummate professional who is also keeping track of $10,000 of wireless lav sets?

Of course I'm giving the two extremes, but you get the idea. What about your sets? Did you just use some ones living room, or did your production designer start with an empty room and fill it with carefully chosen furniture, lamps, paintings, books, and various bric-a-brac selected to give a specific mood, enhance the characters and support the story? Was it then lit by another professional under the auspices of a discerning DP?

No matter what you do you are going to have to either expend enormous amounts of time doing everything by yourself and tracking down elusive freebees, or expending funds to have others take some of the burden - others who will probably do a much better job than you can. That's where the money goes, into having enormously talented, experienced people using professional tools to the utmost of their abilities. You tell them what you want, and they deliver it.
 
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Alcove Audio said:
As far as I can figure it, we're discussing the cost of quality. Quality is a combination of talent and technique.

There are plenty of folks with talent who just won't bother to work hard at their craft, believing that talent is enough. Then there are those who work their tails off, learning every technique out there but who don't have a vestige of talent. Both types will only get so far, but never achieve any major successes.

Now we come to those with talent who will expend the time and effort required to learn and perfect their craft - developing their technique. A very large portion of technique is paying attention to the smallest details. The other is selecting the proper tools to accomplish the various aspects of the specific craft.

As small independent filmmakers and people like me in the support crafts we are often working with minimalist budgets. The smaller your budget the more DIY you are going to have to do. You are going to be doing a lot more preproduction and spending endless hours tracking down, working through, accounting for and assembling the smallest details.

It's those tiny but very important details that make for good filmmaking. Now, I've worked enough "real" jobs to have a very firm grasp on the real world. Happy people work harder and work smarter. On a micro-budget project how do you keep those involved happy? You pay their transportation costs. It's bad enough that they are working for free, but to have to pay their own way to get there? Next, they should be well fed and have a passable craft table; come on, PB&J and pizza doesn't really cut it. These costs alone could easily eat up $1,000 for a five (5) day shoot.

Now lets come to a subcontractor like myself. It cost me over $50,000 to isolate and sonically treat my rooms. Not counting the cost of a new computer I spent over $2,000 upgrading software this past spring; that doesn't include purchasing new software. My mic collection is worth over $5,000, and I would like to add more, a lot more. This is just the tip of the iceberg of the cost of running my business. Add into that my years of experience. (I'm not bragging or complaining, just stating facts.)

I expect to be paid when I work. I have to pay for my $50k room, my sound system, my mic collection, my software, computer, electricity, water, heat, AC, etc. plus a family to support. I have the proper tools and years of experience behind me and I can do a better job on the audio post of your project than you can. But if you want the use of all of my tools and have access to my years of experience you are going to have to pay for it.

Now apply that criteria to all of your crafts people. How much attention did you pay to make-up? Hair? Wardrobe? What about the production sound? Was it some unpaid teenaged PA holding a DIY boom-pole with a Rode VideoMic somewhere in the general vicinity of the actors, or was it a thoroughly professional boom-op swinging a $2,200 Schoeps shotgun in a $600 Rycote blimp covered by a $200 dead cat on the end of a 20' graphite internally wired boom-pole connected to a $6,000 Sound Devices mixer/recorder combo operated by another consummate professional who is also keeping track of $10,000 of wireless lav sets?

Of course I'm giving the two extremes, but you get the idea. What about your sets? Did you just use some ones living room, or did your production designer start with an empty room and fill it with carefully chosen furniture, lamps, paintings, books, and various bric-a-brac selected to give a specific mood, enhance the characters and support the story? Was it then lit by another professional under the auspices of a discerning DP?

No matter what you do you are going to have to either expend enormous amounts of time doing everything by yourself and tracking down elusive freebees, or expending funds to have others take some of the burden - others who will probably do a much better job than you can. That's where the money goes, into having enormously talented, experienced people using professional tools to the utmost of their abilities. You tell them what you want, and they deliver it.
Click to expand...

Better said than I ever could.
 
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WYG1Productions said:
i guess i meant more why is it necessary...
seems like the "indie scene" is flooded with sub-par crap that cost a few hundred thousand to produce.
seems like a good chunk of the budget goes towards luxuries like catering etc.

as far as cast and crew. there's three of us that officially run the shop, but via networking and shaking hands i've met dozens of people who don't want to get paid minimum wage, and dont need to be trollied from location to location.
Click to expand...

Do you really think these people you've just met are going to show up right on time at 6am on the 12th day of production and work a tough 12 hour day? What happens when your lead actor shows up late and says "It's not like you're paying me"? And you don't want to provide catering? Since you'll be shooting on location do you really want to tear down all your equipment so people can go find the nearest Taco Bell? Time is money; catering pays for itself and keeps up morale on set. It's your project so you'll be enthusiastic, but you need to keep the guys doing the grunt work for little/no pay happy.
 
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WYG1Productions said:
for the most part i'm just gonna disregard the majority of it.
Click to expand...

Do that. Make your movie your way. There's no better way to learn than to just dive in and swim for all you're worth.

Keep in mind, though, that you did ask why movies cost what they do, and you were given answers. If you can do it for less and still make a distributable film, you will have earned all of our respect, believe me.
 
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Actually in the feature we are currently in production with, we began the process of establishing budget by looking at the work to be done.

Starting with the script: 110 pages at 4-5 pages a day shooting = 20 to 30 days of shooting. Despite having a volunteer crew and cast, are we really asking many of these people to give 20 to 30 days without so much as providing coffee, water, and snacks? What about restroom facilities? Interupting production to haul actors and/or crew to McDonalds to use the bathroom only adds more days (and cost) to the principal production. We operate with a crew of 8, which is very small to be shooting a feature. If each crew member only drinks 4 bottles of water a day, that 1-1/2 cases of water a day, at $5/case that $100-$150 in water for crew. If you went low, low budget you may get by feeding your crew for $5/person/day. That's $40/day to feed the crew. There's another $800-$1000. So we've already busted your budget and that's just to keep the crew alive. Can you shoot with less crew, maybe. But cut your camera crew in half and expect to spend twice as long lighting each shot. Ever try to pull focus, push the dolly, and keep the image framed with just one person? Can't be done. Even a steadicam requires two people to pull focus and move the camera. And that's provided you've got the funds to rent the steadicam with remote focus.

I'm a production sound mixer/boom op so let me give you my take on sound. Can I boom and mix the lavs? Yes, and I often do. Will you get better results if you help me pay for a boom op so I can focus strickly on levels and noise? You bet. And as someone else here has mentioned, at any given time on set, I am deploying 7 to 10 grand worth of gear in the form of wireless, quality lavs, shotgun(s), hyper(s), plant mics, wind protection, mixer, multi-track recorder, harness, and soon, another thousand worth of wireless IFB. And with that, you'll get good dialog, some wilds, tones, and perhaps some ambiences. Not because of the equipment, but because if the thousands of hours I've spent mastering both my craft and my gear. Frankly, any sound person carrying an ADEQUATE production sound kit will bust your $1,000 budget even if you're only paying them $200/day. Oh, and don't forget to budget $20/day for wireless batteries. And once principal photography is wrapped, and you have your edit, expect to spend 5-10 hours per screen minute on post production audio (not counting musical score and soundtrack) and to be done correctly requires a post studio where I've spent another $20 thousand dollars. Your 90 minute movie will consume 450 to 900 hours of audio post. So, when someone asks why movies cost so much to make I give them this example:

Blair Witch was filmed for around $20 thousand. It took another $80 thousand to get the film in a releasable condition, with another several hundred thousand spend on promotion and distribution.


WYG1Productions said:
IFC and some making-ofs told you to get a big budget, a big crew, and a catering service.
so where's your big bad movie? did all that money turn your idea in to a good one?

i come from nothing, watch me turn it in to something....
Click to expand...
 
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