Why are we so unsuccessful???

Marketing, distribution channels, money to pay for the best people in the industry, money to buy into properties with a proven track record of making money, and news media attention.

I don't see Indie films with strong marketing people.

That sums it up.
 
Kholi said:
It's going to be difficult to read this but the truth is: you need money to advertise if you want to be seem en masse when it comes to feature films.
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Bingo!

"The Killer Inside Me" was released on one screen in mid June with
almost no advertising. It expanded to a grad total of 17 screens three
weeks later then down to 9 the next week. Just finishing a film isn't
enough - even a good one. If the distributor does not support it with
advertising and screens, people will not and can not see it.

It did well in Europe. Not enough to show a profit, but Europeans love
American noir and actually know who Jim Thompson is. My noir thriller
didn't get US distribution at all but did well in Germany, France and
Spain.
 
"It doesn't feel like I'm trying out for the NFL. It seems a lot more achievable than that. "

Well, to be the bubble burster, it's not.

10,000 people set out to make a film, maybe 1000 of them will complete it. Of that 1000 films maybe 100 will be of decent quality (interesting story, well acted, well shot). Of that 100 films maybe 1 will get hooked up with the distribution system and have the promotional financing to reach a wide audience. You are pursuing a "dream" that comes true for very, very, very few people. Each of us that stick with it have an abiding belief somewhere deep inside that WE will be the one.
 
Here is the best definition of success I know of:

Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen six, result happiness.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pound ought and six, result misery.

- Charles Dickens, David Copperfield

If I can make a work, that elicits and emotional response, that makes someone feel what I wanted them to feel, and make one cent more than I spent, to me, thats a success.
 
Success for me would be not working a day job, and keeping my lifestyle at about the same level. I'm not nearly good enough for that yet, and have zero skills in the aforementioned marketing necessity, but I'm trying to work towards that goal. As such, I know that in addition to working on the skillset I know I need, I need to work on learning to market myself.

I personally think that's the most important part of all of this: identifying what your goals are and what you need to do to achieve them. It's silly to compare yourself to someone else's progress. If they made it, hey, you could make it too! There are composers who have turned pro faster than I, and some that took longer, but their career is not mine (and jealousy never helps). If your goal is to be a major hollywood director, then figure out what you need to do to get there. If your goal is to do the same by tomorrow, well, that might not be quite so realistic!
 
It's kinda crazy to hope that a really low-budget movie can compete with the big dogs at the box office. Besides the high production values that paying audiences expect, the importance of advertising can't be overstated.

But that doesn't mean that us little guys can't be "successful", even in the way that the OP defines it. The vast majority of the best directors in Hollywood were once little guys like you and me.

Forget the comparison to the NFL. Be glad that you're not a musician - those guys have it rough. But even in the musicians world, crazy success stories happen. A friend of mine, former coworker is in the midst of one right now. If you listen to pop/rock radio, you've possibly heard of a new group called The Head and the Heart; they're blowing up, selling out major concerts all accross the nation. I happen to know that they did not get lucky by knowing or meeting the right person; they simply built an audience by offering a really awesome product. It wasn't until AFTER they had built a following that they were finally noticed by Sub-Pop Records.

They wouldn't be where they are, without the backing of Sub-Pop, but it was their own awesomeness that got them noticed by Sub-Pop. I believe it is the same for us little filmmakers - we cannot get our movies seen by millions of paying customers, without the backing of a major studio or distributor, but it is your own awesomeness that will get you noticed by a major studio or distributor.

And that's the glass half-full.
 
CamVader said:
I thought my NFL analogy was quite profound.:D
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:lol:

Sorry. Yes, it was quite profound. But the difference is that the NFL has minor leagues (college football). And those minor leagues have their own minor leagues (high school football). No such organization exists for filmmakers, so we really have nothing but ourselves and our own gumption. Cheers! :D
 
Cracker Funk said:
But the difference is that the NFL has minor leagues (college football). And those minor leagues have their own minor leagues (high school football). No such organization exists for filmmakers, so we really have nothing but ourselves and our own gumption. Cheers! :D
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And this is exactly what I've been bitching about for many a year. We need a sort of apprenticeship/journeyman/master thingy going on. It's not such a foreign idea considering many arts disciplines of the past existed within, not to mention most skilled trades of today, such a hierarchy.
 
bird said:
And this is exactly what I've been bitching about for many a year. We need a sort of apprenticeship/journeyman/master thingy going on. It's not such a foreign idea considering many arts disciplines of the past existed within, not to mention most skilled trades of today, such a hierarchy.
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The only difference is that Film is primarily a business, not so much an art. When it comes to apprenticing, it typically happens on a private level. My mentors are not, by any stretch, huge hollywood guys but they worked on a lot of the largest productions in the nineties.

A few of my friends are on huge movies like Spiderman and Transformers to learn directly from the Gaffer and DP.

If you want these sorts of things, you sort of have to seek them out on your own.

If people want to create art, honestly, Painting and Writing are much cheaper hobbies to have.

But, don't be discouraged because the internet as surely opened up a lot of possibilities. Just... don't think you're about to blow up on your first try. You need to spend time on it, lots of it, and money... lots of it.
 
Kholi said:
The only difference is that Film is primarily a business, not so much an art. .
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I would argue film is as much an artform and to some of us, even more an artform than a business.


Plumbing, carpentry, etc, are businesses by definition, and still follow such a three-parted training trajectory.

Historically, visual arts (painting, sculpture, stained glass, architecture) were commissioned of specific schools by either the church or monarchs....so much of the record of ART reflects the business of it's day. The folk arts of the past were considered exactly that, folk, and of no determinable value (of course we think different today). :)

I still believe there could be some workable paradigm for filmmaking. I mean one could argue the early studio system tried as such.
 
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bird said:
I would argue film is as much an artform and to some of us, even more an artform than a business.
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You're right, to some people it's an art first. Absolutely. To the majority, it's a business. It's the same thing with starving Jazz Musicians versus Rock Bands who are fattening themselves.

I am sure there's a way to start what you're talking about, it just costs money to do even that. so you'd have to ask "why bother?"

It's easier to buy a T2i, rent a lot of movies, combine your favorite scenes from each of those movies into a feature and shoot it in your spare time versus having someone teach you.

You'll learn more the first way, anyway.
 
bird said:
I would argue film is as much an artform and to some of us, even more an artform than a business.
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Call me a crazy dreamer, if you want, but I have to agree with this statement. Yeah, the Hollywood studio system is a business. The people droppping their dollars on film productions want simply to turn a profit on their investments.

But the people they hire are artists! I simply can't believe that my filmmaking heroes are simply in it for the money, because the work being put out by them is too damn genius for me to accept that they aren't in it for the love of the art.
 
Cracker Funk said:
Call me a crazy dreamer, if you want, but I have to agree with this statement. Yeah, the Hollywood studio system is a business. The people droppping their dollars on film productions want simply to turn a profit on their investments.

But the people they hire are artists! I simply can't believe that my filmmaking heroes are simply in it for the money, because the work being put out by them is too damn genius for me to accept that they aren't in it for the love of the art.
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Haha! Yeah, I'm sure they're also in it for the love of realizing dreams and ideas. That's a huge part of it.

But, I mean, guys like Nolan? They get a few million to direct alone... they aren't declining that money. No matter what they do with it privately, even if it's donating to charities, etc, they're still making it.

I'm down for art! Not opposed to it. Discarding the business side at a point when you don't even have a career is pretty much saying in about five years you're going to move on to a different profession.
 
Kholi said:
You're right, to some people it's an art first. Absolutely. To the majority, it's a business. It's the same thing with starving Jazz Musicians versus Rock Bands who are fattening themselves.

I am sure there's a way to start what you're talking about, it just costs money to do even that. so you'd have to ask "why bother?"

It's easier to buy a T2i, rent a lot of movies, combine your favorite scenes from each of those movies into a feature and shoot it in your spare time versus having someone teach you.

You'll learn more the first way, anyway.
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Exactly! I guess the only way I can respond, is to respond philanthropically....to assist the evolution of the artform. Which leads me to benefactors.....is there a fat walleted patron who would like to keep me in bonbons and film stock? I know I've mentioned this on several past threads. Anyone?
 
Kholi said:
Haha! Yeah, I'm sure they're also in it for the love of realizing dreams and ideas. That's a huge part of it.

But, I mean, guys like Nolan? They get a few million to direct alone... they aren't declining that money. No matter what they do with it privately, even if it's donating to charities, etc, they're still making it.

I'm down for art! Not opposed to it. Discarding the business side at a point when you don't even have a career is pretty much saying in about five years you're going to move on to a different profession.
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Hey, don't get me wrong, I wanna be filthy-stinking-rich, and I mean that! I just mean to say that, in my opinion, the way to get filthy-stinking-rich is by creating a damn solid product, and that means that you have to be an artist first.

Chris Nolan is a perfect example for this thread. He's filthy-stinking-rich. His movies are awesome. You can't watch his movies and tell me that he cares more about business than the art. And he got there by plugging-away like all us little guys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J88-RdWnNT0
 
Cracker Funk said:
Hey, don't get me wrong, I wanna be filthy-stinking-rich, and I mean that! I just mean to say that, in my opinion, the way to get filthy-stinking-rich is by creating a damn solid product, and that means that you have to be an artist first.
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Eee... I KIND of agree, but then again I don't? You don't have to create a solid product to have it pay off. Honestly, you just have to deliver something above film school average and it'll pay off. If you don't believe me, just take a look at what gets distributed from here to other countries.

Chris Nolan is a perfect example for this thread. He's filthy-stinking-rich. His movies are awesome. You can't watch his movies and tell me that he cares more about business than the art. And he got there by plugging-away like all us little guys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J88-RdWnNT0
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Yeah, I can't say that he cares more about business than art. But, I'd wager he takes them in equal portions... as, he can't keep making large budget pictures without large budgets, right?

But, yeah, not saying to just throw away the art side! Just, one should probably realize that you aren't going to get large budgets to burn away on creating art and no profit.
 
In a sense though, the battle to the top is a proving ground. You have to be really really good to outshine it as an indie artist. That means that the stuff that makes it is the stuff worth seeing.

A lot of indie movies I've seen are crap. I'm sure the director considers himself an artist, but I have to assume that most people making indie stuff if given a budget would just churn out more expensive crap.

Sure there are terrible big budget movies being made, but I'm talking about the indie artist. The fight up to the top is where you hone your skill. Only the strong survive, yada yada. Like a weightlifter training everyday, the conflict, the struggle, the hardships make you better. An easy way out can be counterproductive.

I know that for every good artist that makes it there are more that don't, bit this is my glass-full philosophy. I welcome the "struggle", I'll win... or die trying? haha
 
PaulGriffith said:
In a sense though, the battle to the top is a proving ground. You have to be really really good to outshine it as an indie artist. That means that the stuff that makes it is the stuff worth seeing.

A lot of indie movies I've seen are crap. I'm sure the director considers himself an artist, but I have to assume that most people making indie stuff if given a budget would just churn out more expensive crap.

Sure there are terrible big budget movies being made, but I'm talking about the indie artist. The fight up to the top is where you hone your skill. Only the strong survive, yada yada. Like a weightlifter training everyday, the conflict, the struggle, the hardships make you better. An easy way out can be counterproductive.

I know that for every good artist that makes it there are more that don't, bit this is my glass-full philosophy. I welcome the "struggle", I'll win... or die trying? haha
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Amen to that!
 
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