Why are we so unsuccessful???

Kholi said:
Eee... I KIND of agree, but then again I don't? You don't have to create a solid product to have it pay off. Honestly, you just have to deliver something above film school average and it'll pay off. If you don't believe me, just take a look at what gets distributed from here to other countries.



Yeah, I can't say that he cares more about business than art. But, I'd wager he takes them in equal portions... as, he can't keep making large budget pictures without large budgets, right?

But, yeah, not saying to just throw away the art side! Just, one should probably realize that you aren't going to get large budgets to burn away on creating art and no profit.
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It seems to me as though you're saying it's a dichotomy -- art vs. profit. What I'm saying is that it's more of a cause/effect relationship -- awesome art causes profit.

I really have a hard time believing Nolan gave a damn about profit, when he made "Following". I have to think that he just wanted to get noticed. And get noticed, he did. Likewise, I seriously doubt Nolan gave a rat's-ass about profit when he made "Memento". I think he just wanted to make an awesome movie. And make an awesome movie, he did.

That got him to the major leagues, so to say. Big contracts. Big budgets. Now, he's got producers who care about nothing other than profit. He has to answer to those producers, so his movies must fit into certain confines. But, within those confines, I honestly believe (based on what he's putting out) that he cares about nothing other than just making an awesome movie -- and that's all art.

The business-side puts limitations on what you can/cannot do, but those limitations aren't by any means suffucating, and the fact that there are still kick-ass movies being churned-out by Hollywood studios seems proof to me that someone cares more about the art than anything else.

Producers care about profit. Filmmakers care about art. Producers turn a profit by hiring filmmakers that care about the art. :)
 
Cracker Funk said:
It seems to me as though you're saying it's a dichotomy -- art vs. profit. What I'm saying is that it's more of a cause/effect relationship -- awesome art causes profit.

I really have a hard time believing Nolan gave a damn about profit, when he made "Following". I have to think that he just wanted to get noticed. And get noticed, he did. Likewise, I seriously doubt Nolan gave a rat's-ass about profit when he made "Memento". I think he just wanted to make an awesome movie. And make an awesome movie, he did.

That got him to the major leagues, so to say. Big contracts. Big budgets. Now, he's got producers who care about nothing other than profit. He has to answer to those producers, so his movies must fit into certain confines. But, within those confines, I honestly believe (based on what he's putting out) that he cares about nothing other than just making an awesome movie -- and that's all art.

The business-side puts limitations on what you can/cannot do, but those limitations aren't by any means suffucating, and the fact that there are still kick-ass movies being churned-out by Hollywood studios seems proof to me that someone cares more about the art than anything else.

Producers care about profit. Filmmakers care about art. Producers turn a profit by hiring filmmakers that care about the art. :)
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Eh, well, I'm not here to argue and I can see that it's a bit touchy. Just remember: Memento wasn't a self-funded adventure for he and his brother. The money came from a studio, and that money needed to be repaid.

To say that he doesn't care about money is, well... everyone's got their projections about what the industry is from the outside. I guess until you really play the game, that's how it goes. I was there at one point, too. Haha.

I'm gonna step out of this one. Good luck!
 
Kholi said:
Eh, well, I'm not here to argue and I can see that it's a bit touchy. Just remember: Memento wasn't a self-funded adventure for he and his brother. The money came from a studio, and that money needed to be repaid.

To say that he doesn't care about money is, well... everyone's got their projections about what the industry is from the outside. I guess until you really play the game, that's how it goes. I was there at one point, too. Haha.

I'm gonna step out of this one. Good luck!
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I didn't see it as an argument, just healthy discussion. And this is not a touchy issue, in my opinion. Yeah, I know he had studio funding for "Memento", but it of course is nothing like what he's got now. But the only way he got to make "Memento" was by first making "Following".

And, really, I'm not talking about trying to get any old job in Hollywood. I'm only talking about the OP's (very limited) definition of "successful", so unless you're directing movies that are being seen by millions, I don't think you have any more knowledge on this subject than I do. I promise, I'm not saying that to be a jerk, I'm just reminding what this thread is specifically about -- making it BIG.

I don't know what you do in the industry, as a professional, but I'm quite sure I'd probably be very happy doing what you do. I would gladly take a pay-cut, from my current job as a bartender, if I could earn a living as a filmmaker right now. So, my comments are absolutely not intended to slight you, in any way; the odds are pretty high that I would gladly trade places with you. I just need to reiterate that the OP is addressing BIG TIME success, and since you're a member of this forum, I have to assume that you know nothing more about that than I do.

All I'm trying to say is that audiences turn out in the strongest numbers when a solid piece of artwork has been created, and you don't need to be an insider to see that as truth.

Cheers! Best wishes to you, as well. :)
 
Art and business would be totally unrelated if making movies wasn't so damn expensive!

It's easy to be a painter 'for the art' because all you need is a bit of paint and a canvas. It's easy to be a musician 'for the art' because all you need is a guitar, a whiny voice and some girl who's broken your heart. But if you want to be a filmmaker 'just for the art' you need $20,000 and a lot of spare time.
 
I don't think film makers get into the biz for money. It's such a low percentage bet and you need to be able to exist on such little money as you climb up to the income ladder that only those who truly love it and cannot imagine doing anything else survive.
 
dvdguy said:
I like this topic. :D Dont dream, just DO IT. And yes, marketing is a huge factor I believe. Good luck to everyone.
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I think that's it. It's marketing. Everytime I make something, I budget the essentials that will allow me to 'finish' the project. I don't think about advertising budget as part of the budget. Maybe I don't think about it because I don't have that kind of money.

Anyway, I'm feeling better today, and less in need of therapy from a community that would commiserate with me and pat me in the back and say, "it's gonna be alright." ;)

But yeah, I guess the answer to all our problems is proper marketing, and of course a good product. Now how do we make that happen is the question.

I guess we'll all find out. This is the time. This is the place. We have the technology :yes:
Good Luck to everyone!!
Aveek
 
@TrueIndie..dont worry so much bro!! You'll get it. I believe its a mixture of love towards your craft and advertising.

Today I believe you don't need much money to advertise. I mean, heck, take a look at the internet...you could easily advertise your stuff on youtube for instance, forums etc. :) Build up a reputation from your personality, and presto ;) p.s. You gotta believe.
 
I reckon film makers who get the sort of success you talk about are talented, persistent hard workers who have a little bit of luck along the way.
 
Michael Allen said:
I reckon film makers who get the sort of success you talk about are talented, persistent hard workers who have a little bit of luck along the way.
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There's that pesky "L" word. Everybody hates it, but you're so right on.

I've heard "luck" defined as "ability meets opportunity", but I've grown to believe that's an oversimplification. For me it's more a matter of having the right stuff at the right time, which sounds like the same thing but isn't really. I'll use my own experience as an example:

To date, two of my screenplays have been shopped around Hollywood by my manager. For those who have not been through that process, here is how it works: my manager and I work together to fine tune the script based on what the studios seem to be looking for. He then sends it out to his contacts at various production companies. Their readers cover the script and either pass on it or recommend it to the development executive at the company. If it goes to the development executive, he or she reads it and either passes on it or recommends it to his or her boss, usually a partner in the prodco. If it makes it that far, then the partner reads it and either passes on it or decides to go for an option. In the latter case, the partner takes the script to whichever studio the prodco has a deal with and requests that they purchase the option on behalf of the prodco.

So you've got all those multiple layers to get through, any one of whom could decide to pass on the script for any reason whatsoever. If it makes it as far as the studio, it becomes strictly a business decision, as the creative people have already weighed in.

Both of my scripts made it all the way to the studios, taken there by more than one prodco partner. And these are big-name producers -- one of them even has a "Best Picture" Oscar with his name on it. I don't say this to brag because I have nothing to brag about. In every case the studios declined to write the check. The standard reasons were either "the material didn't fit in with their slate" of projects, or else another studio already had a similar project further along in development. No option = no money. No money = no respect from the industry. Bottom line.

Sorry this has become so lengthy, but my point is that I clearly had both the ability and the opportunity, but in the end I was just unlucky. To succeed in this biz, in addition to having the chops and smarts you MUST be lucky. I believe there are many members of this forum who have more than enough skills and intelligence to make it big, but just haven't gotten that winning lottery ticket...yet.
 
There are marketing firms the big studios use that take care of not just their advertising, they work on booking the movie stars on interviews on both television and radio shows. Then, there is merchandising. Video games, action figure toys, lunch boxes, and books. A portion of their production budgets goes towards paying these firms. On an Indie level, producers are left to do the marketing themselves. The marketing firms are too expensive.
 
directorik said:
Do you mean at the very beginning of a filmmakers career?
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Of course I can't speak for Micheal, but I think he and I probably have a very similar viewpoint. Yes, if I were to make a statement like Micheal's, I would only be talking about the start of their career.

Of course we all need to pay rent, so money matters. Not saying that filmmakers don't care about money. I'm just asking the question -- why did you go into this field over any other? Why didn't you try and go to law school? Why not work at McDonald's, where they will train you how to manage a restaurant, and help you get a loan to open your own franchise (which can be very profitable)? Subway also helps their managers open their own franchises. The answer is obvious -- you went into filmmaking because you love it, right? That's what I would assume, anyway. Of course you want to make as much money as possible, but I assume you chose this field for the love of the art. That's all I'm saying, and I think (?) it's probably pretty close to what Micheal meant to say, as well.

Cheers!
 
I started out because I love films, simple. At some point it will become boring as a hobby (i get bored easily) then I will know if I really want to become a film-maker, and I will soon find out if I'm good enough then. Untill then I will continue learning and making short films that nobody watches :)
 
lol. I dont believe in luck...I believe in attitude and personality :) Instead of waiting for the right place and the right time, I rather create such circumstances! A formula for constant luck. haha
 
I think if you make good films and can find an audience for it then by word of mouth people will recommend your movie. If they don't recommend your movie to thier friends and relatives then your movie is not good enough. You have to reach the right audience that will want to recommend your movie for you. I am talking about word of mouth advertising.

I don't think most of us have the money to advertise our movies on facebook to get audiences to watch the movie like the big studios do.

You probably don't have the funds to show your trailer on a TV broadcast.

I think word of mouth adverstising is your best method.

Now lets say you all ready made some films and have fans for those movies. Well you should be starting a mailing list and have fans join it for your films. This way you can contact them when your next movie comes out. Or how about starting a facebook or twitter page for your movies and letting them know via that when your new movies come out.

The audience has to be able to find your movie once they learn about your movie. If you don't have it available for purcahse or in a theater near by or online how are they to see your film? If they see your film at the festival you need to contact them and give them info on how to see your film once it comes to dvd or online. I noticed that some films are really great at marketing their film after the festivals and meeting the audience to hand out flyers.

No matter the marketing your movie has to be good or at least look good in the trailer for people to come see the film. Second if you have any named actors that probably would help draw a crowd. Or a named directors, producer, etc... But for Indiefilms you probably don't have any named actors or directors so you need to rely on your film and story and trailer to draw people in. Then you need a good word of mouth about your movie from its fans.
 
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