Us Sinners

DavyG

Business Member
indieBIZ
Director:
George Snow
Studio/Production Company:
Athelstan Productions
Genre:
Horror
Length:
Feature

Website:
http://www.ussinners.com

Score:
1.5/5

“Us Sinners” came to me with so many caveats, explanations and excuses from the director, George Snow who wrote to me and said

“My horror movie Us Sinners has been receiving two types of reviews. It's a great movie that every horror fan should own, or it's the worst piece of shit ever made.

I of course believe the great reviews. But, like the great reviews the people who hate it all say the same thing. I had no idea of what I was doing. They attack the story, acting, cinematography, lighting, sound, music, everything. One person said it was the worst thing he'd ever seen, EVER.”

I was intrigued, of course. He continued:

“I need someone with film knowledge to really watch the movie I made, and tell me where I went wrong, from a film-making point of view. They would have to keep in mind the restraints I had while filming. For example one person said the dialogue sequences needed more camera movement. We shot in tight spaces (we had no choice) so camera movement was out of the question.

Do you think you might be up to the task? I can promise you this. You might hate every second of Us Sinners (though the acting is tremendous for a micro-budget), but the ending is like nothing you've ever seen before.”

So, I was really expecting a terrible, badly made, unwatchable film and that is not exactly what I got. No, I did not like “Us Sinners” but, with a few tweaks in tempo and screenplay, it is possible that I might have liked it much, much more than I did.

Reminiscent of “Henry: Portrait Of A Serial Killer” it is a gritty, realistic, detached look at what drives a disturbed young man to kill and kill again. No big surprises here, Tim is badgered by a domineering, abusive mother, picked on by co-workers and otherwise socially challenged.

So, yes, “Us Sinners” was made for almost no money on sub-par equipment, in little time and with non-professional actors. Did any of this bother me? No, not at all. I thought the acting was pretty good. I thought parts of the film were well shot and attractive. An unattractive film can still succeed if the story is engrossing enough that the audience is not distracted by the lack of production values --- witness the 2003 Sundance hit “Pieces Of April” starring Katie Holmes.

Snow wants me to pinpoint what it is about the film that sank it for me and I have. Undeniably creepy and unpleasant, it, unfortunately becomes a bit tedious because of the lack of a compelling plot. Character study is one thing and it can certainly by pulled off but, in this case, there is a routine structure that is established early and merely repeats itself: Tim at work, Tim at home, Tim killing. Yes, eventually he begins to leave clues about his identity but this is not really enough to make the film engrossing.

I believe that a film is a piece of music and like the best pieces, there should be an ebb and flow, a rise and fall, a sense of tension and release of tension, ups and downs. Screenwriting, to me, is closer to music composition than any other sort of writing. For me, a writer who actually specializes in and enjoys watching micro-budget films, there are certain hoops that low-budget filmmakers have to hop through in order to distract from whatever technical or artistic short-comings the film might have. Simply put, “Us Sinners” is simply monotonous, as in one tone, it quickly got boring and boring is bad. Snow is nearly correct about the ending being like nothing we’ve seen before. Actually. I have seen things like it before but it is still pretty shocking. But, what Snow also says “You might hate every second of Us Sinners, but the ending is like nothing you've ever seen before” is at the heart of the problem that the film has --- it doesn’t matter how “great’ the ending is if the 75 minutes leading up to it are boring, tedious and nearly unwatchable.
 
Fuck - FUCK YOU - Fuckin Fuck fucker... ;)

Thanks!. When I commit suicide, just know you're to blame. Before I slit my wrists I have some questions I hope you can answer. Because this is exactly the review people who despise Us Sinners give it. The difference being, you were kind enough to omit spoilers. So, I'm going to give some away below (kind of).

First: Let me explain where I'm coming from. Not excuses, my mindset. You wanted a more engrossing story. Us Sinners is more a character study then a narrative. But, how many horror movies are really story driven? Freddy, Jason, Michael, Leatherface; these are not driven by story. They're all exactly the same: 6 young kids are picked off one at a time by a killer. The only thing anyone ever speaks or cares about from these movies is the kills. Basically, most audiences are so in-tune to the formula that right after a kill they'll head out for popcorn. What these movies have (besides budgets) are the sequences where the victims are chased, scared, or some cat jumps out of the closet to eat up time. The suspense of the kill. But Us Sinners isn't that kind of movie. This shows a killer at work. His victims aren't scared, worried or being chased. While it might take away the suspense of the kill, it's certainly more reality driven. That was my aim, it was a conscious decision. It also might have been my downfall.

So that's where my mindset is. I wanted to make a realistic horror movie about a serial killer realistically.

Here's a breakdown of Us Sinners: (Don't worry I'm getting to a question)

Credits: Flashback
1st Kill
Intro to relationship with Mom
Introduces Bobby
Intro to co-workers
Meeting Louise
The above is the intro to all characters and their relationship to Tim 11 minutes.

2nd Kill/Bobby w/Firecrackers and Mom/ bloody trunk montage goes to 14 minutes.

Dinner with Mom/work flashback/3rd Kill goes to 21 minutes

Patty starts putting the pieces together
Louise & Tim by the elevator
Tim writing the letter/magnesia scene
Letter being read at work
Louise & Melissa
Melissa Dies
This goes to 35 minutes

Date - Pre-Rampage goes to 54:00

I know this may seem like a stupid question to you. But, do you remember where the boredom set in?

You were seriously bored during the Toe kill, Magnesia scene, Mom and Louise, Tim and Louise in the car directly after, the stick beating?

I get the ebb and flow (like the span between kills in most horror films) Us Sinners down times would be the work scenes. But, these all had individual meaning. Some believe it was just his co-workers taunting him, but that's not true. He's really only taunted one and half times. Andrew in the bathroom (which is important for other reasons) and the women asking him about prostitutes.

Because I used very little exposition, information wasn't shoved down the viewers throat. Did you get the importance of Louise to many scenes? The gloves, writing to the paper, Melissa's death.

Did you get the importance of the song that Tim listened to in the car numerous times? Not only to his existence, but to Melissa's death. Also, the fact that those driving scenes, it was what he was listening to that was important?

If you didn't get these things, that could be a reason for the boredom. It doesn't make it a better movie, but it might be a reason why you didn't find it compelling. If you did understand these, then I'm confused.

Last thing for now. Have you seen the movies "Good Dick" - "Ten Items or Less" or "Martyrs"? If you have, did you enjoy them?

Thanks for the review. When this is over, you'll be pulling your hair out. But, I'll be that much better for it.
 
Good review. I like horror , but US SINNERS is not entirely my kind of movie, as it crosses some lines that I find very nasty. However, I wouldn't say that the first 75 minutes are "nearly unwatchable", especially compared to other no budget fare. It certainly did seem to take a lot from CARRIE and HENRY: PORTRAIT OF A SERIAL KILLER. He killed his love, too.

I was really impressed with the performances. Brandon Schraml, as Tim, really threw himself into this role! I always say that an actor is a movie's best special effect - for instance, a squib can show someone being shot, but it is the actors reaction to getting shot that can sell it. With a good actor, you could get by without the squib. In the case of US SINNERS, the explosive demise wouldn't mean much, except for the sincerity of Brandon's pain and pleading leading up to the moment. It did disturb me.

Shades of CARRIE! Leslie Hughes, as the mom, was truly over the top and seemed to be relishing the part. Brenda Cooney was also good as the co-janitor and love interest. I looked her up on IMDB, and my goodness, is she working in a lot of flicks. The rest of the actors were just okay, if that. Kudos to the dead prostitute....looking dead when that condom went in her mouth. Ugh!

I thought the direction and shot selection was okay. Yes, all the character interaction scenes (like the roundtable discussion, etc.) could be a lot smoother. This is one of those movies the video looks like poorly lit video, as opposed to Cinegamma processed, color corrected, etc. The opening images just screamed poor quality. However, 2 minutes into the movie it is no longer an issue, as we start witnessing death by felatio asphyxiation and other unpleasantries! While I was repulsed, I was far from bored.

What did impress me was that the movie is cohesive. The foreshadowing with the firecrackers is very well done. George asked on another thread, THIS ONE, in fact (it is there that we traded movies), "Do I think too much?" After watching US SINNERS, my answer is "No." If you explain everything, there is little for the viewer to explore and ponder. Let them discuss the meaning of the condom in the mouth and milk of magnesia moments. You don't even have to realize that the dad was gay, until the mom states it at the movie's end. It might take a repeated viewing to notice the pearl necklace that is on the hooker and that Tim later gives to Louise. That's the beauty of repeated viewing or even for a first time viewer looking for details.


Interestingly, this movie precedes some bigger productions coming out, which are also crossing that line into genital mutilation. You are on the forefront of an explicit fad. I'm talking about Jake Kennedy's PENANCE (also featuring HENRY's Michael Rooker) and Lars von Trier's ANTICHRIST (starring Willem Dafoe). It is often said that no one person gets an idea to himself, so George is in the company of some interesting people. Sure, there are movies like TEETH, ONE EYED MONSTER and BAD BIOLOGY that started to playfully deal with the subject, but now the heavy duty fare is out and about.

George, though it's not entirely my kind of movie, it is powerful. It does provoke and shake you up, which is more than I can say for most indies. I'm guessing you will be making some statements with your work. While this was formula writing, you definitely gave it your unique stamp. Thanks for trading! I hope you enjoy EXILE, though it is like a Disney flick, by comparison! :D
 
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I'm back. I appreciate everything that you and Scoopicman are saying.
The first thing that I need to say is:
Give yourself a break.

Do not be so hard on yourself.

I am just one guy who wasn't crazy about your film --- of course I am one among quite a few who also didn't like your film.

As a filmmaker myself, I know that a writer-director can get so close to his/her work that perspective begins to fade and the things that you think are obvious wind up being completely lost on the audience.

It sounds like you been a lot of time and effort into the tiny details of the film -- the song, the necklace etc. -- and I have to fully admit that I missed all of it.

I hate to keep harping on the same theme but it really keeps coming back to one thing for me:
pacing, tempo etc. I was simply never hooked on the film, engaged in the story or at all interested in what was going on or how it was all going to turn out in the end.

My stance has always been: I will watch a stupid movie, an offensive movie, a violent movie and so on but the one thing I can't handle is a boring movie.

The thing to do now is either decide to internalize all of the reviews the film has gotten and apply them to your next project --- pumping up that which viewers responded well to and toning down that which viewers did not respond well to OR you can simply stick to your guns, remain true to your artistic instincts, shoot another film and hope for the best.

Good luck, I can't wait to see what you do in the future.
 
I guess two wrongs make a right. George Snow sends in a movie with caveats. Then DavyG writes a review trying to humiliate him. George was in appropriate. DavyG is a bully. Why not be a mature professional and just review the movie?

George responds to the review which an unwritten break in etiquette.

Then DavyG responds with sarcastic words of encouragement.

"Do not be so hard on yourself. I am just one guy who wasn't crazy about your film --- of course I am one among quite a few who also didn't like your film."
Why not write something like, " Your film has a niche audience of which I'm not part of."

I've reviewed hundreds of screenplays. No matter how bad they are, I still treated the writers with respect not condesension.
 
I fail to see how the review is insulting personally to the director...or how he responds with condescension to the filmmaker's reply. This was a film review, nothing more or less. And it was done with the utmost respect to the filmmaker.
 
Scoopicman: Thanks, glad you saw the merits, even though it wasn't your cup of tea. I have Exile (Thanks) and I will watch it soon. Right now I have to find a job, and that takes up a lot of time. Notice the time I'm posting this.

Davy: My problem is when you say things like Tempo/Pacing... I have no idea what you're talking about. I've recorded 4 albums and have no idea how to read music, or use termonology. When someone talks "shop" I usually just nod my head. My DP and I had a ball.

But, I think I figured something out. Tell me if I'm correct. When you say it was tedious and boring, is it because the opening was unpleasant. Then the murder was unpleasant. He goes home and it's unpleasant. So every scene is just unpleasant and that's where the boredom comes in? If that's correct, I can understand that.

Payperfilm: Davy's review is fine with me. He didn't enjoy the movie. As I stated in my letter to him the reviews are 50/50. As you can see from Scoopicman's review he thought the exact opposite of Davy. With the exception of enjoying the movie. As for asking questions of reviewers I do that often. I just want to improve my skills. Especially since I don't really have any.

I'm just obsessive compulsive. Oh, and a pain in the ass.
 
If I were you the next DVD I sent for review I'd send without comments. Ask questions later if you want, but you can make things stick out in your film that weren't obvious just because you pointed them out.
 
I don't get it. It is a review...and a pretty fair one at that--it sounds like it could have been a lot more brutal, but it wasn't. I don't think anything was wrong with DavyG's review...nor do I think anything is wrong with his attitude or tone.

Yes it's a negative review, but so the hell what, so are many reviews out there. To attack a reviewer is pointless and silly.
 
If I were you the next DVD I sent for review I'd send without comments. Ask questions later if you want, but you can make things stick out in your film that weren't obvious just because you pointed them out.

When I sent it to Davy it wasn't for a flat out review. It was more that he could point out the things I did wrong as a movie-maker. I think he did that.

As for Scoopicman, my topic "Do I think too much" was up long before we decided to trade movies. That's where he saw the "spoilers" per say.
 
I was just speaking in general. If you point out the bad sound at 3:12 or the lack of money for color correction, those things just stand out (for example).

To payperfilm, the review is fair, all DavyG's reviews are fair. He was speaking matter-of-factly and honestly to what ussinner's told him. Nothing wrong with it, in fact, his review did not make me never want to see this movie. Reviews are opinions, and now I know his. I want to form my own opinions when I see a flick.
 
I thought the acting was pretty good. I thought parts of the film were well shot and attractive. An unattractive film can still succeed if the story is engrossing enough that the audience is not distracted by the lack of production values

This was the main part I agreed with, from Davy G's review. I was distracted by the night lighting of the first few shots, but when the movie quickly unfolded, my attention was on the material. The "video look" of your movie is not unique to yours. SLICES, FETUS, BONE SICKNESS, PURPLE GLOW, etc. - they all have that video look that I hate. My friend, GREG PARKER, (LORD OF THE DEAD) used "Frame Mode" on the GL-1 and I thought it looked a lot better. Your Canon XL-1 has that feature.

I had just watched US SINNERS, but I wasn't going to post anything until I processed it in my head or talked to George. I logged on to the forum and saw Davy G's review. I immediately responded, because I didn't think the movie was boring. After I pressed "Submit Reply", there was UsSinners' (George's) post. I thought, "Uh oh! He's pissed and I'm next!" But, dammit - a little controversy can be a good thing, especially if a movie is.....um.....controversial. :D



As for Scoopicman, my topic "Do I think too much" was up long before we decided to trade movies. That's where he saw the "spoilers" per say.

Definitely, but I was paying attention. For instance, Tim screams, "Who's laughing now? Who's laughing now?!" That is an homage to EVIL DEAD 2, correct? Ash says that, right after he cuts his hand off.


And, I should clarify that I used to hang out with Nick Palumbo (NUT BAG, MURDER SET PIECES), but didn't care for his movies, just like I don't like most Rob Zombie movies or flicks like NECROMANTIK. But, I do watch them. When I say US SINNERS isn't really my kind of horror, that doesn't mean that it's not other people's kind of horror. (I usually prefer creatures and zombies over serial killers.) However, the cover of US SINNERS depicts exactly what it is. Anybody who looks at that first knows what they are getting into, with the exception of knowing the movie's budget.

I did like much of the movie, including every scene with the mom. "There's something I want you to do for me...." Cut to her moaning and the camera tilts down to reveal Tim massaging her feet! Every time she whacked him, it was kind of like THROW MOMMA FROM THE TRAIN. I was cracking up. I'm also a sucker for the relationship interest in serial killer movies. After all, MANHUNTER (with William Peterson and Tom Noonan) is one of my favorite movies. Though it also has dark scenes, it is presented subtley. I much prefer that kind of filmmaking, rather than seeing the murders happen, like that family video in HENRY. I do like to see the psychological angles (the killer's mindset) explored, which I appreciated in US SINNERS.

I looked at some of the movie, again. The other actors are better than my initial impression, especially the boy, Bobby, who has great facial expressions. It was rather the presentation of some of them. For example: the two detectives sitting on the couch. They didn't come off realistically. They needed to look more cop-like and imposing. Having them sit so low compared to the people they were interviewing does the opposite, for how they should be perceived. I would have one sitting at the breakroom table, while the other stood and asked questions. The interviewees should be seated. Both guys should be sharply dressed. One was, but his suit faded into that dark couch. That's just an example.


George, when I said that you would make some statements with your work, it means that the combination of your character details and provocative material will probably turn some heads and get people thinking.
 
Regarding your audience and especially reviewers: Respect them. I have received some of the harshest reviews around and found that people gang up on you, if you fight the criticism. However, they will support you when you turn the other cheek and take it. If you continue making movies, this attitude will pay off.

My best example is this review from Efilmcritic.

The darnedest thing happened after I called Mike Conway’s “War of the Planets” one of the worst movies I’d ever seen: the guy emailed me. And he actually thanked me.

Of course, he says his movie is better than I said it was, but that’s to be expected. What’s unexpected was his graciousness and his candor. Whenever a filmmaker contacts a critic, it’s usually to thank him for a positive review - or, in the case of some hack screenwriters, to lob misspelled insults. Filmmakers rarely, if ever, drop a line to someone who just tore their baby to shreds in the press just to say howdy. But Conway, well, not only did he actually thank me for my brutal, unforgiving review, he also asked me to take a look at his new movie. And in a bit of Ed Woodian optimism, he promised it’d be better than the last one.

I mention all of this because I’m about to tell you that “The Awakening,” Conway’s follow-up to “Planets,” is in fact not all that bad

Rest of the review, HERE.


Did Davy G tear you a new one? Hardly. Someone else might, though. It's just the nature of putting yourself out there. It's easy for someone to tell you to have a thick skin. Heck, I still get sensitive. But, if enough people are complaining about my sound, my writing, lighting, etc., they must be on to something that I need to improve on. If I can improve upon it, I will use such feedback to motivate me.

If you ever want to feel better about yourself, check out the WAR OF THE PLANETS reviews on Netflix or Amazon. You've got nothing, until you've had your movie called "the worst of all time." :lol:
 
Hahaha. Bone Sickness....lol. I know that director dude. My wife has worked with him before. Great make-up effects artist, but not a very good filmmaker. That's OK, I think he knows that. His films are very makeup heavy for this very reason. I also personally know and worked with the lead of BS...she's a sweetheart.

Anyway. Sorry. Small world.
 
People don’t watch movies (or react to movies) taking the mindset
of the filmmaker into consideration. The budget (or lack of), the
shooting schedule, the equipment (or lack of), the availability
of actors, crew or locations shouldn’t come into play at all. We
have all seen very low budget movies with not so good actors, poor
audio and uninspired visuals that we like - that engage us beyond
the technical flaws or limitations.

The filmmaker can spend hours explaining their mindset and the
viewer can still not like a movie. I find that the more the
filmmaker explains, the less I like a movie - even a movie I
liked. I don’t believe there is anything a filmmaker can say that
will change the mind of a filmviewer. I know there is nothing
Lucas can tell me about his mindset that will cause me to like
Episodes 1,2 and 3.

I’m sure there are many films out there that you don’t like and no
matter what the filmmakers mindset is you still won’t like it.
Other people are just like you. Including people who watch your
movie.

I understand that you’re obsessive compulsive and that nothing any
of us say will change that. But at some point you will need to
just accept that some people are not going to like your movie.
Regardless of your mindset while making it. Some people just won’t
get it. That happens to ALL of us.

I suggest you stop trying to explain your mindset and allow the
movie you made to speak for itself. And make your next one.

When do you start shooting your next one?
 
Hahaha. Bone Sickness....lol. I know that director dude. My wife has worked with him before. Great make-up effects artist

I have FETUS, also!! Another movie that gets nasty - all those dead babies! :seeya: Come to think of it, I have a lot of controversial movies in my collection....:hmm:



I know there is nothing
Lucas can tell me about his mindset that will cause me to like
Episodes 1,2 and 3.

Well, I can't argue that! :lol:
 
Great discussion guys, it's nice to see some activity in the review section. None of my other reviews have gotten this much of a response.

Sorry to be so vague about tempo and pacing.

I often ask my students if they are ever in the car listening to the radio when the DJ comes on and says "Now we're going to play a (new song) by a (new artist you've never heard of)..."
I ask them how long they listen to the new song before deciding whether to keep listening or switch to another station. They typically answer "10 seconds" and, in my own experience, that's a pretty accurate number.

It's the same with a film, everyone knows that the first ten minutes are crucial, that any producer will read the first ten pages of any screenplay and, if after ten pages, he/she is still interested, he/she will continue to read but if the first ten pages fails to grab the attention, they toss it.

So, no, after the first ten pages of "Us Sinners" I was not hooked and I knew that I was unlikely to get hooked -- engrossed, involved, invested in the narrative -- and, for me, it just became about watching stuff happen. So, back to "pacing" and "tempo", I just felt that the tone of the film remained the same throughout and that, for me, there was no sense of it building to a climax.

I applaud George for being so eager for feedback and so invested in becoming a better filmmaker. He just got my e-mail and will be sending me his new screenplay, which I look forward to reading.

It's an honor to review for IndieTalk but, honestly, a little intimidating to know that it is just my review that people are reading, that I can "make or break" a film ---- no, I don't really think I have that much power.

My rules for reviewing are, believe or not, if I think I am going to post a negative review, I often contact the director and ask if they would prefer that I not post it. If I do write a negative review, I strive to avoid trashing the film. I know how hard it is to make a film, nobody sets out to make a bad film. On the flip side, there have been films that I reviewed here that I loved so much that I tried to help the producers find distribution.

But who knows? Earlier this year I did trash a film and then the director hired me to write his next film.
 
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