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My first gunshot - mussle flash test

The muzzle flashes don't look quite right and there are couple of things you could do .


Light the actor . Quickly turn off and on a lamp or something near your actor's face so it mimics the light from the muzzle flash . Other thing you could do is create a mask around the areas that the light effects and turn up the exposure for a frame or two .

One of the best ways to make your muzzle flash look good is by adding smoke , I don't think you added any additional smoke ? I noticed a little but I think this came with the muzzle flash stock element ?

Add glow around the gun and you could add orange / yellowish lens flare for more stylistic effect.

Scaling up the muzzle flash will help a lot in some of the shots as well ..
 
The muzzle flashes don't look quite right and there are couple of things you could do .


Light the actor . Quickly turn off and on a lamp or something near your actor's face so it mimics the light from the muzzle flash . Other thing you could do is create a mask around the areas that the light effects and turn up the exposure for a frame or two .

One of the best ways to make your muzzle flash look good is by adding smoke , I don't think you added any additional smoke ? I noticed a little but I think this came with the muzzle flash stock element ?

Add glow around the gun and you could add orange / yellowish lens flare for more stylistic effect.

Scaling up the muzzle flash will help a lot in some of the shots as well ..


- I did the masking around my face (that was me) but it was less than a second so it is hard to nitice... if you watch it it HD in full screen you may see something...

And it was yellow but I made it black and white so obviously it can be yellow :P and about the smoke... yeah it came with the muzzle flash. I adjusted to collors and made it black and white so it kind of dissipated, I noticed that as well. But that is a lesson to learn for the next time :)
 
Does it look "real" or good enough?

The first question is always: "Good enough" for what? For a school project or average youtube vid, definitely but for commercial quality, no. It also depends on what you mean by your use of the word "look", I presume you mean "appear"? How real or good it will "appear" to be to a member of the public, is a judgement based on one single thing; the combination of the visual images with the sound. Purely visually I would give your clip a 7/10, the two individual sound FX a 6/10 and 5/10 respectively, the combination of everything together a 3/10.

The general filmmaking rule for guns is make pistols sound like rifles, rifles like cannons, and cannons like bombs.

That rule is so generalised as to be almost useless. I know that you are going to be thinking, "oh no, here we go again, of course you're going to say that, you are fixated on sound, have relatively big budgets and what you suggest might be the perfect way to do it but is completely impossible/impractical for no budget filmmakers". My answer is: "Totally irrelevant!" and here is my argument why:

This thread is discussing in quite fine detail how to improve further what is already a decent visual effect but only you Ray have even mentioned the sound and even then only the raw ingredients and even then only in the most generalised, broadest terms possible. My question is: Why spend the time trying make your 7⁄10 visuals a 9/10 or 10/10 to improve the end result to maybe a 3.5/10 when you could spend the same amount of time elsewhere to improve the end result to a 5/10? Obviously, this question is only aimed at filmmakers rather than those who are specifically and only VFX crafts-people.

G
 
It's not bad.

Don't forget, when you call your video "Muzzle flash test" everyone immediately draws their eye there. and is looking and wanting it to be wrong. When you put a dozen of these flashes in a 5 minute scene I think it would pass.
 
The first question is always: "Good enough" for what? For a school project or average youtube vid, definitely but for commercial quality, no.

I'm just going to take a guess, based on the youtube overlay that pops up and says "Subscribe... new comedy gangster video series coming soon!" that it's for an 'average youtube vid'.

Purely visually I would give your clip a 7/10, the two individual sound FX a 6/10 and 5/10 respectively, the combination of everything together a 3/10.

I'm interested in how you arrived at a 3/10 if you rated the individual elements so much higher. Do you feel that the combination of the two doesn't effectively convey the effect of a gun being fired?

My question is: Why spend the time trying make your 7⁄10 visuals a 9/10 or 10/10 to improve the end result to maybe a 3.5/10 when you could spend the same amount of time elsewhere to improve the end result to a 5/10? Obviously, this question is only aimed at filmmakers rather than those who are specifically and only VFX crafts-people.

Again, I just don't understand your math. Improving the visuals a little would only change the overall rating half a point, while improving the audio a little would move it a couple of points? It seems to me your rating system merely reflects your bias towards sound.

But as you pointed out - context matters. In my opinion you could make minor changes to both the visuals and audio to improve the overall effect - essentially working to hide the elements that give each away as an effect, such as the abrupt decay of the sound or the timing of the flash relative to the recoil of the gun. Of course you could also improve the acting - that's not what it looks like when someone really fires a gun. And the specular highlights on the prop give away the fact that it's made of plastic rather than metal. And the lighting is too soft for what looks to be a film noir style film. But in the context of a youtube "comedy gangster series" I'd say the overall success of it depends primarily on the writing and performances, and everything in this shot is probably "good enough".
 
Originally Posted by rayw
The general filmmaking rule for guns is make pistols sound like rifles, rifles like cannons, and cannons like bombs.
I know that you are going to be thinking, "oh no, here we go again, of course you're going to say that, you are fixated on sound, have relatively big budgets and what you suggest might be the perfect way to do it but is completely impossible/impractical for no budget filmmakers". My answer is: "Totally irrelevant!" and here is my argument why
:lol: Right back atcha, G!

Likewise, you're likely thinking "Oh no, here we go again, of course you're going to say that!", (all in sincere fun of course).

But as per your usual - you've provided zero actionable direction, only grievance + principle.
>> WHAT should LDS do to make his gunshots sound better?

Real pistol shots are a very short loud "Crack!" Sounds like two pieces of pine board being slapped together.
Hardly cinematic, but then again I did state "Just like with the acting: MUCH hyperbole", which applies to almost all aspects of final product for the audience.
 
Interesting, are you using a big softbox or something as a light source? That first shot where it catches the reflection of the light is what made me think it was plastic because of the way the light seems to spread the length of the slide.
 
Interesting, are you using a big softbox or something as a light source? That first shot where it catches the reflection of the light is what made me think it was plastic because of the way the light seems to spread the length of the slide.

the thing is here in the UK it is illegal to sell/buy original painted guns (black/silver)... so they all come in shiny blue... that is the reason I made the video black and white so you wouldn't see a blue gun lol... :cool:

it is amazing in the US it is legal to buy a real gun and in the UK it is illegal to buy a TOY unless it's blue :weird:
 
I'm interested in how you arrived at a 3/10 if you rated the individual elements so much higher.

It's like making a cake, you could go out and buy/source the very finest ingredients but the final quality of the cake isn't defined solely by the quality of it's ingredients, you'll still end up with a bad cake if you don't mix the ingredients appropriately and/or if you don't bake the cake appropriately.

In this case, the gun mechanism (cocking) sound effect is decent quality, it's a very present SFX, it sounds like it's happening a foot or couple of feet from your ears. The actual gunshot SFX is also reasonably decent quality but has a quite distant aural perspective, it sounds 10s of meters away. The reverb tail has been faded out early in an attempt to combat this impression of distance but it hasn't worked and just makes the sound effect sound wrong. These two completely different aural perspectives of the SFX not only contradict each other but also contradict the visual image. We don't see the gun being cocked a foot or so in front of us and we don't see the gun being fired 10s of meters away. The ingredients are all decent individually but don't combine to result in a decent cake!

Again, I just don't understand your math. Improving the visuals a little would only change the overall rating half a point, while improving the audio a little would move it a couple of points? It seems to me your rating system merely reflects your bias towards sound.

Sound is different to and has an advantage over all the other film crafts. In a professional workflow, audio post (and particularly the final sound mix) is the final stage in the making of a film. The advantage is that we get to see our design and other work while we are working on it, in combination and therefore in context with what is otherwise a finished film. This allows us (or should allow us!) to concentrate pretty much exclusively and far more precisely on how our craft combines with the other crafts.

I don't believe my "rating system merely reflects my bias towards sound", it reflects my bias towards the combination of the crafts. It doesn't matter how brilliant your visuals are, if your sound is contradicting what the audience is seeing, the suspension of disbelief, the believability of the scene will be destroyed. An audience is not going to be as understanding of sound as I am, they will not know that the aural perspectives of the SFX are contradicting each other and the visuals, all they will know is that the scene doesn't feel right, that they aren't convinced.

Obviously, the opposite would be just as true, great sound but unconvincing visuals. What I am arguing for is not specifically high quality sound but a better balance of crafts. At the moment, even though there are still improvements which can be made to the visuals, the balance is already too far biased towards the visuals alone. There is far more to be gained in the overall quality of the scene by achieving a better balance and combination of the crafts than in improving the visuals further and making the imbalance even greater! Because of this imbalance, improving the visuals further just improves the visuals but has relatively little effect on the overall quality of the scene, whereas in this particular case, improving the sound doesn't just improve the sound but also improves the whole scene significantly.

But as per your usual - you've provided zero actionable direction, only grievance + principle..

As per usual, I am more than willing to provide actionable direction. But my experience here has been that most either don't believe actionable direction is required and/or don't care, so I have to justify why action is required and we often get so bogged down in the justification we don't get any further! I would be far happier discussing solutions than I am in justifying that there are problems which need solutions! Furthermore, those few who do believe and care, often either don't want or don't have the money to outsource the problem to someone who know what they are doing or to spend the time and effort to learn how to do it themselves, unless exceptionally luckily, that actionable direction happens to be incredibly quick and easy!

>> WHAT should LDS do to make his gunshots sound better? ... Real pistol shots are a very short loud "Crack!" Sounds like two pieces of pine board being slapped together. Hardly cinematic, but then again I did state "Just like with the acting: MUCH hyperbole", which applies to almost all aspects of final product for the audience.

Yes, standing close to a weapon being fired you tend to hear just a short loud crack, which as you say doesn't sound very cinematic. Standing further away from a weapon being fired the sound develops low frequency content (due to sound reflections and high frequency absorption), more of that cinematic boom. To make his gunshots (and sound in general) better, he needs to consider the aural perspective of the sounds he is working with a great deal more. In this particular case, we have a medium close visual perspective, LDS could source a loud crack gunshot SFX and layer it with a bit of low frequency boom, to make it more cinematic but not appear too distant. He could then wrap the whole thing up with some quite close perspective reverb. Also, a more realistic balance between the gun being cocked and the gunshot itself. You can bend reality a fair bit depending on what you are trying to achieve artistically but having the gun's mechanism appear to be pretty much the same volume as the gunshot itself is bending reality well beyond breaking point, especially in this case, as the gun is visually much closer to the audience when it is being fired than when it is being cocked.

G
 
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As per usual, I am more than willing to provide actionable direction. Yer a good man, G. But my experience here has been that most either don't believe actionable direction is required and/or don't care, True so I have to justify why action is required Eh... I wouldn't waste time with that, for future reference and we often get so bogged down in the justification we don't get any further! I'd like to think I do a pretty good job of paying attention to what is and isn't addressed. I would be far happier discussing solutions than I am in justifying that there are problems which need solutions! Works for me. Furthermore, those few who do believe and care, often either don't want or don't have the money to outsource the problem to someone who know what they are doing or to spend the time and effort to learn how to do it themselves, unless exceptionally luckily, that actionable direction happens to be incredibly quick and easy! Fair enough. That may very well be exactly why you frequently take issue with the no-expense solutions I offer. You and I both know there's the right way to do something, but I've nothing to lose by suggesting the no-budget/least-amount-of-effort solution.



  • To make his gunshots (and sound in general) better, he needs to consider the aural perspective of the sounds he is working with a great deal more.
  • In this particular case, we have a medium close visual perspective, LDS could source a loud crack gunshot SFX and layer it with a bit of low frequency boom, to make it more cinematic but not appear too distant.
  • He could then wrap the whole thing up with some quite close perspective reverb.
  • Also, a more realistic balance between the gun being cocked and the gunshot itself.
  • You can bend reality a fair bit depending on what you are trying to achieve artistically but having the gun's mechanism appear to be pretty much the same volume as the gunshot itself is bending reality well beyond breaking point, especially in this case, as the gun is visually much closer to the audience when it is being fired than when it is being cocked.
Fantastic.
LDS, you get that?
Loud crack + low frequency boom.
Not near, not far. Range appropriate.
"Close perspective reverb" wrap.
Balance your cock and shot. :D No, seriously.
Don't futz this up or you'll become Typhoid Mary proof that "those few who do believe and care, often either don't want ... to spend the time and effort to learn how to do it themselves, unless exceptionally luckily, that actionable direction happens to be incredibly quick and easy!"
And even though I know you primarily think of yourself as an actor and find yourself sort of forced into this director/producer/editor gig, in the grand scheme of things this isn't that difficult and mostly just costs you time and attention - while being just north of "incredibly quick and easy!"

Don't let APE down. Don't prove his pessimism justified. :no:

It's all you, man. :yes:
 
Appreciate the time and effort you put into to costume, light and get some general quality into the test.

Id say go bigger with everything. Its dramatic action, its supposed to be better than real.
Make the flash 10x bigger.
Add a case eject
Add smoke
Animate the slide. its pretty easy and only takes a few frames.
Cut a frame or two from between the trigger pull to the recoil\flash, this will add a lot of "energy"
 
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