• Wondering which camera, gear, computer, or software to buy? Ask in our Gear Guide.

Knock Down Sequence

W

wheatgrinder

Hi all,
I filmed and edited this last night as a test for some shooting I hope to do this weekend. Its a big knock down sequence at the end of a fight. Id like to know if it "works." (its NOT supposed to look "realistic" rather I'm going for over the top, super kung-fu thing.. with untrained kids!")

I shot this like it was a dialog, with OTS's. In post I did some time remaps etc, some of those fx's are a bit off. Sorry 'bout the "over the top" color, it was late and I just slapped a look on it.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="853" height="505"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/hvGT9Q2Yl1s&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x234900&color2=0x4e9e00&hd=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/hvGT9Q2Yl1s&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x234900&color2=0x4e9e00&hd=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="853" height="505"></embed></object>
 
Sort by date Sort by votes
I mean as far as a style choice it works. However, you did break the 180 guideline which will confuse the audience. And I am not a fan of mixing the handheld and tripod. But yeah it "works".
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I like the color! It reminds me of Amelie, although I doubt that's what you were going for.

A couple things I think that would make it better.

Something seemed a bit 'off' to me so I rewatched it a few times and as far as I can tell you 'crossed the line.' It looks like you stay in fine after that first OTD shot, so maybe just a reshoot from of the first shot from the other side of the line.

It could still be cut faster to make the cuts feel more smooth and matched.

If you're going for cheesy kung-fu style, I seem to remember there is a lot of closeups on the hands and feet for punches and kicks. Add some cheesy sound effects (the punches, grunts, a big wail as he flies back) and you've got a classic a la Drunken Master :)

You could also use your slide to mimic a dolly track shot so you are moving in on her face as she's about to hit him. It would be more dramatic.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Dang, your both right on crossing the line.. stupid noob!
I was going to add some cam movement in post to the tripod shot... Im realizing that when working with kids, speed is king. I can only keep 'em focused for about 10 mins. So I should just forgo the tripod going forward.

Does your distaste of mixing tripod and hand held extend to the entire scene or just sequences.. ??
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0 Downvote
Thanks again.. Broosky and Dreddy...

The fist and third shots are from the master, which I don't like anyway. As this is a test, I will get it right when I do the full costume shot this weekend. I know why I crossed the line. Lack of planning. I just had the idea for the sequence in my head, but never diagrammed or story boarded it. I suppose as you gain experience, keeping the line becomes 2nd nature, but for this noob, I have to remember to think of it for every shot. Ill add it to the list of things to check before pushing the record button.

I realize now that I need some examples to show the kids. My explaining it is slow. Any good suggestions, clips on youtube (kids remember)

I love the big fight in "They Live" I think Ill steal some ideas from that!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0 Downvote
Don't worry about breaking the rule. I've also learned the hard way that if you don't plan your shots, you will likely get something wrong. I get so turned around trying to remember where the line is.

I've been watching some of the Hollywood Camera Works DVDs and it's changed the way I think about shooting entirely. Must. Have. Dolly. Must. Have. Dolly. Want. Dolly. Want. Dolly.

I don't know if it becomes second nature, knowing where the line is at all times, if you're a professional. But what I do know is that a lot of pros plan their shots very carefully.

Another tip from the DVD is that story-boarding as a means of planning shots can lead to a lot of inefficient shooting and confusion. I'm very tempted to upload a clip from the DVD, an example of a scene and having all the shots diagrammed and broken down. It's very in depth.

But since that would probably be unethical, I'll just highly recommend that you buy them :)
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Thanks Dreddy, I try and find that DVD... Dolly, yeah, thats a perfect DIY thing..

In the current family film project (Fists Of Dough) I tried (am trying) this approach.

I didn't story board out much, just one or two key "looks" that I wanted to remember.

I went through the script and came up with a coverage plan for each scene. Some scenes have a little diagram of actors, the line, and the camera but mostly its just text on a 3x5 card.
Some scenes have as many as 5 setups but most are just two or three. Master, OTS and Reverse. I think now that Ill spend a few mins diagramming ALL the scenes, that way I can keep the basics straight, but story boarding for every shot is out for now..

After last weekend and this test shot, I realize that Im taking WAY to much time on the masters. I use VERY little footage from them, and the details that I agonized over getting right, are normally the natural cut points, so instead of the 12 takes of a master I seem to be averaging, Ill just go for "good enough" and get the OTS.. which seem to just go faster and easier..
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
With the kids Im trying to have them do fights as safely as possible, lots of distance for the long lens shots, and fight in SLOW MO. The hand held footage looks a bit strange when I speed it up in POST, Might have to forgo the act in SLOW MO.. or maybe image stabilize in post, then speed up, then reapply some hand held motion..

FYI: in the new tut on VideoCopilot Andrew shows a technique where you track the motion of some normal hand held video footage, but then apply that motion to locked down (or static in the case of the tut) footage. Simple idea, and looks much better than trying to use expressions, wiggle, or what not..
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I hear ya, storyboarding is a lot of work. I'll leave that to someone who likes drawing. :P

You are certainly taking on a big challenge since your talent has such a short attention span. Film is boring after all, not sure how you can make it more exciting :/

Isn't there an old saw about the number one rule of theatre being that you never work with children or animals?

PS: Check this out, I found a taste of it for you on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuEh_HDb9Dc
This is how I've been trying to diagram my shots now. It's especially helpful when dealing with the moving camera to think in keyframes. Set up your keyframes and then just figure a way for the camera to get from one to the other. (I'm starting to think that a moving camera is one of the biggest parts of that coveted 'film' look).
I hope that doesn't sound like nonsense. When did this stuff start making so much sense to me?!
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
That Andrew Kramer! He's done it again.

The safety issues are hard, true. Going slow-mo and speeding it up sounds like your best bet, but maybe those should be tripod zoom/slide shots?
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I think the saying is from vaudeville days and is something like "don't go on stage AFTER children or animals!" Reason being if you try and "out do" a kid, you look like a Jerk. And if its an animal, your going to step in something :)

Thanks for that link, I love the idea of a notation system for blocking.. Ill incorporate that idea next time I pick up a pencil.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I know this a test , but I didn't even notice the 180 degree thing. For me it works , but that's just me.

One thing that is a bit jarring is the cut between the shot of him sitting on the ground and the shot of him falling down. A little abrupt.Personally , I think it could have been one shot. Or a shot of the girl looking down at him thrown in the middle might work better. What's seems to be lacking is a little bit of presence for the one , big , powerful punch to register and then render him motionless. I think that's what you were going for here.

But that's just me wheatgrinder , all in all I like the clip.:yes:

BTW how did you do the shot of him being flown in the distance after the punch ? Was someone pulling him from behind...
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Thanks FrostBlue,
Yeah, I feel that way too about that cut with him siting and falling.. I believe its called a jump cut, which is a bad thing (sometimes). It is the same shot, just a little further down the time line. I cut it there, in an earlier edit where I cut back to the girl standing over, and ended with him on the floor, when I changed it around to how you see it now, I forgot to undo that cut, and just moved the other bit over.. When I watched it, I kinda liked it like that and left in in there. We could argue if the 30deg rule was met in the different zooms between the cuts.. but meh..



flying through the air was fun. I had him sit on an office chair, his sister pulled it from behind.. framed the shot to avoid seeing the chair... In post (AE) I added the "vertical" movement.. he starts higher ends lower.. For that I scaled up the video, dropped some key frames and adjusted the position... The take was much longer, but because the way that speeding it up in post made it look "funny" I reduced the "flight time" to avoid too much attention to that ..

FYI: The flying bit was the main purpose of this test shot. I had the idea driving home from work and had to try it out.. (I have great Kids by the way!)
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I got the feeling you were going for a jump cut there...

wheatgrinder said:
Thanks FrostBlue,
We could argue if the 30deg rule was met in the different zooms between the cuts.. but meh..
Click to expand...

I approach things a bit intuitively and then check the technical details...So I dunno...Its sometimes funny how one idea or subject can be visualized in different ways by different people...Makes so many things a matter of opinion and taste in art /craft works.

wheatgrinder said:
flying through the air was fun. I had him sit on an office chair, his sister pulled it from behind.. framed the shot to avoid seeing the chair... In post (AE) I added the "vertical" movement.. he starts higher ends lower.. For that I scaled up the video, dropped some key frames and adjusted the position... The take was much longer, but because the way that speeding it up in post made it look "funny" I reduced the "flight time" to avoid too much attention to that ..

FYI: The flying bit was the main purpose of this test shot. I had the idea driving home from work and had to try it out.. (I have great Kids by the way!)
Click to expand...

The flying bit was very successful , I think , great job without any cables...awesome
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I thought the shooting was good but the editing jarred a little. I've never edited a fight scene, but it must be hard. I guess it's just a case of a couple of miliseconds longer or shorter from on each shot. Nothing that can't be fixed. I can't tell if the shots were too long or short though, they just felt out to me.

*

If you break the 180 degree rule is it sometimes possible to invert/flip the shot in post?

*

Apart from that, it works.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0 Downvote
There is a subtle "time distortion" (speeding up and slowing down) that I tried to achieve.. it might be too subtle and just be coming of as odd and jaring.. Sound FX's could do a lot to smooth it out..

"Flopping" in post will work, and happens a lot, I understand that some continuity errors (like this one in LOTR: "When the Nazgul confront Arwen across the river, they draw their swords in their left hands. In the next shot this changes to their right." are due to flopping to fix a line crossing problem.. So "Yes" flopping will fix it..'. however, since fighting is all about the HANDS, switching from a lefty to a righty might be even more awkward than the line cross :)
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
This was my first edit of a fight sequence. I have tested the long lens stunt but not as part of a sequence. I'm just thinking of it like a dialog. Which Iv done exactly ONCE, and that was last weekend.

Another issue I have with this is the "landing" it works, and you know what happened, but it should be cut on action, and its not, so it kinda feels flat to me..
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
OK watched it again.

- The landing: We need to show the milisecond that the dude connects with the 'wall'.
We see him whistling through the air, see him slumped against the wall, but don't see the crunch, a shot that needs to come in the middle. I would shoot that...

Home Alone II meets Enter the Dragon
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top