movie-talk Joker

sfoster

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I found it flabby - overall needed to be trimmed by about 15 minutes.

Also that damn cello! I get that it's depressing and sad and everything else. But by the 5th time it came on, I was ready to throw things at the screen. There's plenty of other instruments/ways to signify that.

The actors were terrific though.

I'd give it a solid B - I expected better.
cello is my favorite string instrument so i didnt mind 😄
and yeah it felt like a longer directors cut of the film (which i also didnt mind)
 
Also that damn cello! I get that it's depressing and sad and everything else. But by the 5th time it came on, I was ready to throw things at the screen. There's plenty of other instruments/ways to signify that.
I strongly disagree. It might be due to my complete love of cello but what the cello did in this case was represent Arthurs journey. From a dark place to complete madness. I think the sharpness of it ramming into your skull by the end just completed the story. It worked great as a tool of making you unsettled. But that's my personal experience with the movie I respect you have a different view of it.

I loved the part where you were left guessing if it's real or did he imagine it. And I think the main actor completely carried the whole movie by himself. I can't believe I haven't heard of him before but man he's amazing.
 

mlesemann

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I think the sharpness of it ramming into your skull by the end just completed the story.
And that's exactly what I hated. There's nothing in the world that can be "ramming into your skull" that I would ever like. But I've seen reviews that love the score, so of course this is just my view.

I'm surprised that you haven't heard of Joaquin Phoenix before, as he's been nominated for 3 Oscars.

Joaquin Phoenix IMDb
 

sfoster

Staff Member
Moderator
I strongly disagree. It might be due to my complete love of cello but what the cello did in this case was represent Arthurs journey. From a dark place to complete madness. I think the sharpness of it ramming into your skull by the end just completed the story. It worked great as a tool of making you unsettled. But that's my personal experience with the movie I respect you have a different view of it.

I loved the part where you were left guessing if it's real or did he imagine it. And I think the main actor completely carried the whole movie by himself. I can't believe I haven't heard of him before but man he's amazing.
I suggest you check out Gladiator.
It won best picture and it was really great with the joker actor playing a villain. Thats where he really shines imo.
 

directorik

IndieTalk's Resident Guru
And I think the main actor completely carried the whole movie by himself. I can't believe I haven't heard of him before but man he's amazing.
Hopefully this movie will spark an interest in him Sweden/Lithuania. Here in the States
he is a pretty big star. And (as you can see) well deserved.
 
Hated it. Well made. Great performance. But,.... where was the brilliance of the Joker (the man)? A mentally ill guy gets a gun and learns how to kill. Really? Where was the thin line between insanity and genius??? All I saw was the former. This guy seemed so inept.

Mean Wall Street thugs? Ha ha ha. Sure, I could picture condescending, disrespecting smart asses, but as bullies on a subway?

That Joker dance routine. If I saw that one more time, I was to throw my hands in the air. That's really the most he could offer? Again, I wanted to see some of his insane creativity, but didn't get that.

The movie itself was slow, depressing, and had a level of verisimilitude that went against the kind of escape and enjoyment that one might seek from a DC movie. This is all just my opinion, but I'm kind of sad that young people are seeing this and getting inspiration from it. I took my 13 and 21 year old boys to see it. They seemed to like it.
 

sfoster

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Hated it. Where was the thin line between insanity and genius???
Ah youre one of those guys... go into a movie with so much preconception that you cant enjoy it for what it is.
If you had never heard of the joker or read any comic books maybe you could have enjoyed this film.

I think that your expectations ruined the experience for you.
I didnt see the joker as inept I saw him as a smart and capable person that was crippled by doubts and mental illness.
 
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Ah youre one of those guys... go into a movie with so much preconception that you cant enjoy it for what it is.
I knew I would get flamed for posting against the grain, but I think it's important to be a voice of dissent on this one. After all, there are two sides to a controversy (JOKER has one). Feel free to label me. For the wrong reason, I might add.

I just went to see the movie because it was out, not because I looked forward to it or had any expectations, just like I did with AD ASTRA. (Lame story and non-resolution, btw.) I don't have a lot of stake in it. I don't care that much for cartoony Avengers or Justice League series, but they are amusing time killers. The kind of movies I like are ALIEN, TERMINATOR, and NEAR DARK.

JOKER crossed a line for me. It's possibly the movie that the people in Colorado were fearing it might be. It reminds me of the mentally ill shooters that make up the news as of late. It reminds me of ANTIFA and class warfare. The redeeming value is its message about the importance of social services for those in need.

I really liked BATMAN BEGINS and THE DARK KNIGHT. I did not like THE DARK KNIGHT RISES, where Bane stokes an Occupy Wall Street type of movement. The Joker stokes a similar "kill the rich" movement.

All of that aside, I like a good villain story. A well written character will have you liking him, when you probably shouldn't. The Joker's character tone is similar to Travis Bickle, in TAXI DRIVER. Both are troubled outcasts that concoct a plan of attack. The Joker has very little plan; he falls into it. Travis' setup is pretty amazing, having the multiple guns and a wrist slider. He tries to commit his sin and is thwarted in the assassination attempt. Instead, he uses that firepower to free the hooker (Jodi Foster) from her pimp goons. For the wrong reasons, he does something right.

The characters in these two movies are similar, but Joker has no confidante or kinship character to protect of fight for. I didn't feel for him, personally, aside from him being randomly picked on. I didn't feel the motivations in his character.

Examples of dark characters I did like? Early Grayce (Brad Pitt) in KALIFORNIA. What made him work was his relationship to David Duchkovny's character. (kinship confidante). I actually wanted Robert De Niro's character to escape, in HEAT.
 

sfoster

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I just went to see the movie because it was out, not because I looked forward to it or had any expectations
If you didnt have any expectations then why are you complaining that the joker wasn't a genius?
Where does that even come from, who said anything about juaquin's character being a genius...

I think the only reason you would say something like that is because you have preconceptions about what the joker character is supposed to be and you brought those into the movie. I wasn't flaming you for not liking it just pointing out that you might have enjoyed it more if you didnt know anything about the joker or want the film to conform to what you expect the joker to be.

kinship is a great writers tool but i think TP wanted to portray loneliness here.
I actually prefer the sequels for terminator and alien hahaha so we are a little different taste but i will say batman begins is one of my top movies overall
 
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If you didnt have any expectations then why are you complaining that the joker wasn't a genius?
I meant expectations of the movie. It threw me for just how dark it got. You are correct that I have some expectation of the Joker as a successful criminal. Genius aside, I guess I wanted a "Save the Cat" type of reason for me to follow his character. All John Wick needed was a puppy to propel followers through 3 or 4 movies.

I might be reading too much into this movie. That fact that it was well done, has me taking it seriously - like thinking about its ramifications on real life. It's already a big success.
 

sfoster

Staff Member
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I meant expectations of the movie. It threw me for just how dark it got. You are correct that I have some expectation of the Joker as a successful criminal. Genius aside, I guess I wanted a "Save the Cat" type of reason for me to follow his character. All John Wick needed was a puppy to propel followers through 3 or 4 movies.

I might be reading too much into this movie. That fact that it was well done, has me taking it seriously - like thinking about its ramifications on real life. It's already a big success.
If you love movies its great to have a new one to talk about.
Hmmm I felt sympathy for his character and I was rooting for him to kill that 3rd wallstreet guy 😄

How did you feel in that scene, did you want the guy to get away and live?
Maybe making joker too sympathetic could be get the creators too much criticism from hollywood.
 

mlesemann

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Moderator
I felt sympathy for his character
I felt sympathy for his mental illness struggles and the loss of social services but that's all. I found him obnoxious, nasty, and unsympathetic.
And not especially bright.

The Wall St guys were obnoxious twits but no threat to his life. So that sequence lost me completely.
It was basically Bernie Getz, for those of us who were around NY that long ago. And Getz certainly got no sympathy from me.
 

sfoster

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I felt sympathy for his mental illness struggles and the loss of social services but that's all. I found him obnoxious, nasty, and unsympathetic.
And not especially bright.

The Wall St guys were obnoxious twits but no threat to his life. So that sequence lost me completely.
It was basically Bernie Getz, for those of us who were around NY that long ago. And Getz certainly got no sympathy from me.
yeah his mental illness struggles is like 70% of the film though right?
It was so painful when he tried to do standup comedy and had his fit on stage. definitely felt bad for him.
then when his mom says he was always a happy child and never sad and had that guy abusing him... mom telling him "dont you have to be funny to do standup?"

the way his wayne "father" was treating him, how his coworker pretended to be a friend but set him up to get in trouble, etc
I thought it was loaded with a ton of sympathetic moments.

Also the most unrealistic part of the film that you can do standup one time and end up on television lol.
people do stand up for 25 years trying to get on tv. basically might as well as had him get a winning lottery ticket.
 
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Maybe making joker too sympathetic could be get the creators too much criticism from hollywood.
I don't mean sympathetic to attackers. Of course, they are going to get ten fold retribution. I wanted to know about Joker more. He's got to be sympathetic about something or possibly someone. That would be revealing.

Without it being the girl friend, what if there was a kid who related to him on his level? During one of his clown stints, he means a lot to someone. He repeatedly visits the kid in the hospital. He is actually funny to that person and it brings him joy......then it gets torn away. The child is better and living back at home. Joker continues to visit. Imagine the child's parent being some rich person who pays thugs to follow him and beat him up, so that he has to stay away from the only person who understands him. That would be more motivating than a random encounter. Just an example.
 

sfoster

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I don't mean sympathetic to attackers. Of course, they are going to get ten fold retribution. I wanted to know about Joker more. He's got to be sympathetic about something or possibly someone. That would be revealing.

Without it being the girl friend, what if there was a kid who related to him on his level? During one of his clown stints, he means a lot to someone. He repeatedly visits the kid in the hospital. He is actually funny to that person and it brings him joy......then it gets torn away. The child is better and living back at home. Joker continues to visit. Imagine the child's parent being some rich person who pays thugs to follow him and beat him up, so that he has to stay away from the only person who understands him. That would be more motivating than a random encounter. Just an example.
that would have been a nice moment before he got fired
 
then when his mom says he was always a happy child and never sad
I think the point of that was that his mother was mentally ill and never understood that his uncontrollable laughter is a condition. She just literally thought he's so happy and laughing all the time. You can see that few times throughout the movie where she scolds him for laughing without realizing he can't control it. He also in one of his outburst said "I haven't been happy a single day of my entire life" or something among those words to his mom which just exposed how removed from reality his mother was - believing he was always happy.

the way his wayne "father" was treating him,
I assumed he imagined the whole incident thing. Sure he followed him to the bathroom, confronted him, he told him how it is - your mother is crazy, she was acting nuts, you're adopted yada yada but I believe he imagined the smacking part for few reasons. One - he made himself a victim throughout the movie all the time, feeling sorry for himself so he made up another reason why Wayne was the bully, two - the scene cut straight to him in his apartment in the exact same stance as moments before when he got hit. Three - he never had any marks on his face from the hit even tho most likely it would have been broken or at least bruised for week(s). Yet the day after - not a mark. [/QUOTE]

how his coworker pretended to be a friend but set him up to get in trouble, etc
I don't think this was real either. Or at least not the way it really happened. The way the co-worker approached him and just handed the gun like it's candy. Never asked for it back. Was super friendly to him while being a complete ass to other men. That's weird and felt out of place like not quite right.

Also the most unrealistic part of the film that you can do standup one time and end up on television lol.
people do stand up for 25 years trying to get on tv. basically might as well as had him get a winning lottery ticket.
He got on the show to be a laughing stock tho? The part where he did stand up and everyone laughed including his "girlfriend" was in his head. Because in the tape they played on the show you can hear the background being completely silent while he was struggling to get the jokes out while in his memory everyone was laughing and he was smashing it. Someone sent in a video of his failed stand up in a bit to mock him, then the show made more jokes about how horrible he was, then people loved that and called in asking him to be invited to the show so they could laugh even more at him. Entertainment for the bullies. That's the most realistic part of the movie if anything. 😄

I think a lot of people are disappointed in the movie because they simply did not get the style of it. Days after I've seen it I'm still thinking what was real and what wasn't. Was the movie all just Jokers memory told from his perspective while he's in that mental institution that we saw at the end? Therefore everything and anything could be made up aka his life being multiple choices just as he always said. And we will never know because it's a choice viewers will make individually. I just feel sad that so many people won't fully get the point and take it at face value expecting another pompastic superhero-supervillain movie.
 
I don't mean sympathetic to attackers. Of course, they are going to get ten fold retribution. I wanted to know about Joker more. He's got to be sympathetic about something or possibly someone. That would be revealing.

Without it being the girl friend, what if there was a kid who related to him on his level? During one of his clown stints, he means a lot to someone. He repeatedly visits the kid in the hospital. He is actually funny to that person and it brings him joy......then it gets torn away. The child is better and living back at home. Joker continues to visit. Imagine the child's parent being some rich person who pays thugs to follow him and beat him up, so that he has to stay away from the only person who understands him. That would be more motivating than a random encounter. Just an example.
Oh god no. That's the most cliche story line ever - no offence. Been done and overdone and will be done in the future 100x. They made a point to show that Joker never had normal human connection apart from his mother. I don't even think he's capable of forming those bonds. It was displayed few times in the movie like for example the comedy show he was at. He took notes of what made people laugh, when to make eye contact, he laughed at all the wrong times just because he couldn't get it. Subtle sociopathic - psycho tendencies.
 

sfoster

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Moderator
I think the point of that was that his mother was mentally ill and never understood that his uncontrollable laughter is a condition. She just literally thought he's so happy and laughing all the time. You can see that few times throughout the movie where she scolds him for laughing without realizing he can't control it. He also in one of his outburst said "I haven't been happy a single day of my entire life" or something among those words to his mom which just exposed how removed from reality his mother was - believing he was always happy.
He had a single mom that was completely out of touch with him, never understood him for a single moment.
IDK how you can dismiss that as just the point that is mom is mentally ill.

It was such a huge and fucked up part of his childhood that the arkham clerk didnt even want to hand him the folder about it!!
Definitely made me feel bad for him.

I assumed he imagined the whole incident thing. Sure he followed him to the bathroom, confronted him, he told him how it is - your mother is crazy, she was acting nuts, you're adopted yada yada but I believe he imagined the smacking part for few reasons. One - he made himself a victim throughout the movie all the time, feeling sorry for himself so he made up another reason why Wayne was the bully, two - the scene cut straight to him in his apartment in the exact same stance as moments before when he got hit. Three - he never had any marks on his face from the hit even tho most likely it would have been broken or at least bruised for week(s). Yet the day after - not a mark.
Interesting... well first I would have to disagree that he made himself a victim.
I didn't see that happening. The one time he is CLEARLY imagining is when he pretends he is in the audience of the show and gets called up to stage and the audience loves him and murry loves him, etc. It's quite far from making himself the victim when we see he is imagining.

I would have to watch again to look at the camera laughs and the bruises but I am skeptical.
He got punched extremely hard in the face and fell to the ground in the subway when those wallstreet guys attacked him, he never had a black eye though did he? are you saying the subway didnt happen either bc the whole movie is based around that lol.

and the coworker didnt like him and knew it would get him fired. thats why he gave a gun to him and didnt ask for it back.
it was his way of getting rid of him.

and even though he was on the show to be a laughing stock - do you have any idea how many standup comedians bomb?
People bomb ALL The time. even good comedians bomb. you can go out tonight and see your local standup and someone will bomb

it actually is no big deal it definitely wouldnt get you on tv imo. but thats fine.
 
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They made a point to show that Joker never had normal human connection apart from his mother. I don't even think he's capable of forming those bonds.
he imagined an elaborate relationship that gave him just that.
He wanted to bond with someone.

That's the most cliche story line ever - no offence. Been done and overdone and will be done in the future 100x.
No problem. I'm guessing that if I came up with something wholly original, you wouldn't like it, because that would still be me trying to add more humanity and motivation to the character. I understand that a lot of people find the Joker alluring just as he is.
 
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he imagined an elaborate relationship that gave him just that.
He wanted to bond with someone.
Hm that's a possibility. The way I saw it she was a bumper for him.
to assure his jokes were funny. To "take care" of his arousal after the killings. To lift his ego when they stopped at the magazine and she was praising the Joker and such. Like she was only in the picture as a tool for him to use in that moment and then put back into a box if that makes sense? Maybe it was his messed up way of wanting bonds maybe it was just another of his imaginations to make him feel "the man".

And hey, Scoopicman and sfoster I absolutely did not mean to offend anyone I just got excited after few glasses of wine while writing my point of view. Which is the part that I loved about the movie, you might have seen it one way and I could have processed it completely different way! It all goes down to our own experiences, outside influences etc etc. and I am sorry if I came off as condescending. But I do strongly believe this movie meant to do that to viewers - create multiple choices with everyone seeing it their way.
 
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