Is this allowed? (Re: Continuity Editing)

L

liezl

Hey guys, I've got a very "newb" question...

Following continuity editing, are the following allowed:

1. A long shot from behind a character cuts to a full shot from in front of the same character.
2. A full shot of two characters in dialogue cuts to a medium shot of the same two characters still engaged in dialogue.
 
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There is always a line of action. Can't really answer the question without knowing the scene. Seriously, you should get that book I recommended. It'll be the best money you ever spent.
 
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liezl said:
How does the 180 degree rule apply if there is only one character/subject in a scene?
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It's much more forgiving with one person. You can probably break it much more easily without DPs and filmgeeks ramming it down your throat that they 'saw that.'

But ya, there's a line of action. It's there to allow the audience to get a good bearing on where the actors are in relation to the geography as well as spatially in general. If you jump the line, and the 'eye lines' and BG changes too dramatically, the viewer is confused.

But then you have folks who swear by the 720 degree rule, and the 15 degree edit point rule...two lesser known rules that frequent the underground and gorilla scenes.

Ummm. That last part was a joke. Just see'in if you're paying attention.
 
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Know the rules before you break them, and break them for a reason. Otherwise you will be labeled inexperienced instead of innovative.

Filmmaking is experimenting.
 
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Though all is true about understanding rules, etc..

Learning and internalizing this lesson is much easier "hands on" .. go take some simple shots, say a conversation between the salt and pepper shakers. Set up the shots in accordance with what you believe you know about the 180 deg rule.

Typical coverage would be..
with the line of action between Salt and Pepper..

master 2 shot
Over The Shoulder and reverse OTS..

Spice it up with some POV and CU, remaining on the same side of the line of action for every shot.. even if just inches..


Take the footage it into your NLE and try and edit the sequence. It will all SNAP into place in your mind.
 
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Cracker Funk said:
Also, I'm afraid I have to respectfully, strongly, disagree with this.
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We each have our own way of learning.

Most of you suggest studying the written word by research
and using an on line search tool. I prefer to learn by doing.
My point was only my own, personal opinion. If liezl - or
anyone - chooses to research using google or read books or
learn more about editing before shooting I see no problem
with that. I learned by shooting and then editing and looking
at what I did, then changing it until it was what I wanted.

I was only offering my thoughts based on my method. If I
came across as dogmatic I apologize. My intent was to offer
an alternate way to learn - not force anyone to do it that way.
 
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Ernest Worthing said:
Yup, wat Directorik and M1chae1 said.

The only thing i can do is give you more info which is that anything less than 30 degrees looks like a jump cut. Anything more and you should be safe.

And remember more than 180 and ur breaking the 180 degree rule.
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lol. No-one got the joke, but I did. :)

Now, another question:

Is angle a matter of concern?

What if the camera is behind the actor looking down at him,

next shot is in front of him looking up.

No difference?
 
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Cracker Funk said:
I don't think you were being dogmatic at all. I hope it didn't seem like I was.

Just different viewpoints. I think that's healthy discussion.
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I'm glad to hear that.

Then what do you strongly disagree with? Not my
method - it's just a different viewpoint. You think
very much about how it's going to cut together - I
don't. No disagreement there. Just different ways
of making our movies.

I've never bought into the "know the rules before
you break them" method. I started making film long
before I read any books on any rules. I was breaking
rules I didn't even knew existed. On my very first
"serious" film I crossed the line in a dialogue scene. I
had no idea there was a rule, I had no idea there was
a term for what I did - but I did know something didn't
work. And I did it a few more times before I figured
out what looked better. It was YEARS later I learned the
"rule" and what the term was.

But for those who do follow this method, I have no
disagreement at all. Study, study, study and then shoot.
Me? I don't do that. I shoot and then I figure it out.
 
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I don't think having a strong disagreement is tantamount to being dogmatic. Yes, I do strongly disagree with your suggestion of shoot-first-figure-things-out-later. I think "dogmatic" is a strong word. Can't we have strong opinions without them being dogma?

Whatever. We digress. I guess the main point to take from this discussion is one we can agree on -- to each his own.

EDIT: Okay, I figured out a better way to state my (strong) opinion, without it sounding (too) dogmatic.

Look, I'm all for doing things your way. Do what works for you. But I don't think that means you should go into things blindly.

directorik, you figured out the 180 "rule" by trial-and-error. That's great. For me, though, the whole point of any kind of education is to learn from other people's trials and errors. To me, education is like this -- look, I've been through this, here's what worked for me, here's what hasn't. Now, go out on your own, take the info that I've given you and expand on it.

We would have no technology if everybody just figured things out on their own. One person teaches another person what they have figured out. The student then takes that info and makes it better, passing their lessons on to the next generation. If we all followed your methods, we'd still be using stone tools.

It's no different for filmmaking. If we all just learned everything ourselves, we'd still be making "Birth of a Nation". (I don't mean that as a socio-political commentary about the content of the movie; I'm only talking about the filmmaking methods). Passing along knowledge is good. Reading about the 180 "rule" in a book is good. In the end, the act of absorbing as much information as we can find can only serve to further the creative possibilities available to us filmmakers.

I guess I can admit to being dogmatic about one thing -- every noob should buy this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Bare-Bones-Camera-Course-Video/dp/0960371818
 
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What makes the human species so unique and diverse, is our adoption of trade and invention. With this includes teaching. If we all had to start from 0...we'd never make it to 100. But because of the above driving forces, we're already at 1000.

There's no reason to go it alone, or reinvent the wheel.


:)
 
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ROC said:
lol. No-one got the joke, but I did. :)

Now, another question:

Is angle a matter of concern?

What if the camera is behind the actor looking down at him,

next shot is in front of him looking up.

No difference?
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Hahhahaha.

For everyone in general who is interested:

That shot is fine and used a lot. You've seen shots like this before. For example, a character is heading towards and object on the floor. He is shown from behind with the camera looking down at him and the object as he moves closer to it. it cuts to the POV of the object, looking at the character from the front and below.

And in general, yes angles are a concern. imagine half a dome if you will on one side of the line when you think abt camera angles.

But angles are very subjective and should be used in accordance with whatever you want to achieve. Eg. showing a person from a high angle and then a low angle while remaining on the right side of the line can still be jarring if you keep cutting from one to the other repeatedly. but perhaps that is what you want. maybe the character is receiving mind boggling information and you want the audience to feel uncomfortable and jarred as well.

If you dont want that effect but still want to change from a high to a low angle, do it smoothly with a crane move. or connect the angles by an interim mid level shot etc.

Angles should not be used just because they can be anywhere on the right side of the line. The "correct" angle should be used for whatever you are trying to convey.
 
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Cracker Funk said:
Okay, I figured out a better way to state my (strong) opinion, without it sounding (too) dogmatic.
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Sorry about the misunderstanding. I meant to suggest
that perhaps I was being too dogmatic which caused such
a strong disagreement. I never meant to suggest I felt
you were being dogmatic.

The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress. -Joseph Joubert, essayist (1754-1824)
 
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