Is Story really that important?

G

gibbo

First of all, I'm a newbie and I don't really know what I'm talking about, I'm just externalising my thoughts in a way. But, don't let that stop you from putting me in my place :D

I've been seeing the old "Story is most important" being mentioned quite a bit in the books I read, interviews and articles that I've seen. But is this really the case?

Is Plot just as, or even more important that Story?

I ask because I was thinking that there are plenty of great films with a simple story that succeed because they are plotted well, obviously by good directors. What about this very basic story outline:

A group of soldiers infiltrate enemy lines to rescue another soldier after his brothers were killed in duty - Sounds pretty stock standard, right? but with a great Plot it becomes Saving Private Ryan.

Or:

A young college student decides to start a social networking site. Many people wrote this off: "A movie about facebook???!?! WTF??!?! - but with a great plot it becomes The Social Network.

And what is Pulp fiction about? What's the story about?

Seinfield is another example: A show about nothing (no story)

There are plenty more examples out there, I don't need to type some more in, but feel free to add some if you like.

So basically, I do believe that Story is important, yeah I do. But, I mean, I feel that Plot is at least as important, if not more so, than Story. There are plenty of TV shows and films with no real story, or nothing spectacular that are great. There are also plenty of movies and shows with good stories that are failures. Of course it works the other way too, and we could argue that acting or other aspects are just as important as well but for the sake of this thread, and to illustrate my point, can we keep it on plot vs story?

I have other stuff in my head that I want to say in relation to this but I just can't find the words to express what I mean, but it's all there in my head (sounds crazy?).

Anyway, I appreciate your input!
 
Sort by date Sort by votes
Those are largely semantic distinctions you draw. Plot is generally considered one of the primary elements of story -- as is character.

Overall though, simple stories work better in movies/scripts in general, but along with the simplicity should go some potential for dramatic tension. For example, "A story about a big shark in the Atlantic" is not dramatic but a "A story about a big shark attacking beachgoers" is.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
brianluce said:
Those are largely semantic distinctions you draw.
Click to expand...

I agree. Story isn't story without plot. A movie can't really have a story without having a plot, and vice versa. And it also sounds like your idea of "story" is actually called a tagline. You described the "story" of The Social Network as "a young student decides to start a social network." But that's not the story, that's the tagline.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Don't confuse simple with good/bad. You can have a simple, bad story just as easy as a complicated, bad story. A good story will be good. It doesn't matter if its complicated or not.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Murdock said:
Just off the top of my head I can think of 8 stories that are in Pulp Fiction. Not including the main 3. Each are parts of a greater whole but could stand by themselves as a short story.
Click to expand...

When discussions like this occur, PULP FICTION is always brought up. PF is an exception to the rule with its non linear structure and multiple story threads. Most of us are better off not trying to be Tarantino of Chris Nolan and sticking with traditional structure.

And btw, Tarantino didn't invent that style of story, in fact a lot of what Tarantino does is derivative -- but he pulls from obscure sources, or at least sources obscure to most film goers. I love the guy, but I don't believe he's the dazzling outside the box genius some claim him to be.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0 Downvote
Goodness.
Bad as I am about splitting hairs, even I couldn't cite the difference between "story" and "plot".

Forgive me while I investigate (to the likely benefit of those with the sense not to expose their deficiencies).

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/story
–noun
1. a narrative, either true or fictitious, in prose or verse, designed to interest, amuse, or instruct the hearer or reader; tale.
2. a fictitious tale, shorter and less elaborate than a novel.
3. such narratives or tales as a branch of literature: song and story.
4. the plot or succession of incidents of a novel, poem, drama, etc.: The characterizations were good, but the story was weak.
5. a narration of an incident or a series of events or an example of these that is or may be narrated, as an anecdote, joke, etc.
6. a narration of the events in the life of a person or the existence of a thing, or such events as a subject for narration: the story of medicine; the story of his life.
7. a report or account of a matter; statement or allegation: The story goes that he rejected the offer.
8. news story.
9. a lie or fabrication: What he said about himself turned out to be a story.
10. Obsolete . history.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/plot
–noun
1. a secret plan or scheme to accomplish some purpose, especially a hostile, unlawful, or evil purpose: a plot to overthrow the government.
2. Also called storyline. the plan, scheme, or main story of a literary or dramatic work, as a play, novel, or short story.
3. a small piece or area of ground: a garden plot; burial plot.
4. a measured piece or parcel of land: a house on a two-acre plot.
5. a plan, map, diagram, or other graphic representation, as of land, a building, etc.
6. a list, timetable, or scheme dealing with any of the various arrangements for the production of a play, motion picture, etc.: According to the property plot, there should be a lamp stage left.
7. a chart showing the course of a craft, as a ship or airplane.
8. Artillery . a point or points located on a map or chart: target plot.

Hmm...
Disappointingly somewhat circular, eh?

Further (dubious) elucidation:
Ain't helpin': http://www.learningnerd.com/the-difference-between-plot-and-story

Maybe I'm just dense, but doesn't this contradict what the previous article just stated?: http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/difference-between-plot-and-story/

A d@mn fine line: http://tech.mit.edu/V118/N29/sight.29a.html

There may be two half-decent nuggets in here:http://io9.com/5197310/whats-the-difference-between-story-and-plot
"Usually, there's an implication that "story" involves more of an emotional component, or some kind of magical alchemy, that's not present in mere plot."
and...
"So maybe a good plot is something that takes you from A to B to C without wrecking your suspension of disbelief, and keeps you guessing about what's going to happen next. And maybe a good story is something that delivers you at a destination, and in the end you understand how the journey all led up to this point."

LOL! I'm not the only one that can't keep the two straight!: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_difference_between_story_and_plot

Okay, I'm rubber stamping this particular hair splitting issue a big fat WHATEVER!
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
rayw said:
Goodness.
Bad as I am about splitting hairs, even I couldn't cite the difference between "story" and "plot".

Forgive me while I investigate (to the likely benefit of those with the sense not to expose their deficiencies).

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/story
–noun
1. a narrative, either true or fictitious, in prose or verse, designed to interest, amuse, or instruct the hearer or reader; tale.
2. a fictitious tale, shorter and less elaborate than a novel.
3. such narratives or tales as a branch of literature: song and story.
4. the plot or succession of incidents of a novel, poem, drama, etc.: The characterizations were good, but the story was weak.
5. a narration of an incident or a series of events or an example of these that is or may be narrated, as an anecdote, joke, etc.
6. a narration of the events in the life of a person or the existence of a thing, or such events as a subject for narration: the story of medicine; the story of his life.
7. a report or account of a matter; statement or allegation: The story goes that he rejected the offer.
8. news story.
9. a lie or fabrication: What he said about himself turned out to be a story.
10. Obsolete . history.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/plot
–noun
1. a secret plan or scheme to accomplish some purpose, especially a hostile, unlawful, or evil purpose: a plot to overthrow the government.
2. Also called storyline. the plan, scheme, or main story of a literary or dramatic work, as a play, novel, or short story.
3. a small piece or area of ground: a garden plot; burial plot.
4. a measured piece or parcel of land: a house on a two-acre plot.
5. a plan, map, diagram, or other graphic representation, as of land, a building, etc.
6. a list, timetable, or scheme dealing with any of the various arrangements for the production of a play, motion picture, etc.: According to the property plot, there should be a lamp stage left.
7. a chart showing the course of a craft, as a ship or airplane.
8. Artillery . a point or points located on a map or chart: target plot.

Hmm...
Disappointingly somewhat circular, eh?

Further (dubious) elucidation:
Ain't helpin': http://www.learningnerd.com/the-difference-between-plot-and-story

Maybe I'm just dense, but doesn't this contradict what the previous article just stated?: http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/difference-between-plot-and-story/

A d@mn fine line: http://tech.mit.edu/V118/N29/sight.29a.html

There may be two half-decent nuggets in here:http://io9.com/5197310/whats-the-difference-between-story-and-plot
"Usually, there's an implication that "story" involves more of an emotional component, or some kind of magical alchemy, that's not present in mere plot."
and...
"So maybe a good plot is something that takes you from A to B to C without wrecking your suspension of disbelief, and keeps you guessing about what's going to happen next. And maybe a good story is something that delivers you at a destination, and in the end you understand how the journey all led up to this point."

LOL! I'm not the only one that can't keep the two straight!: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_difference_between_story_and_plot

Okay, I'm rubber stamping this particular hair splitting issue a big fat WHATEVER!
Click to expand...

I'm worried about you.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
brianluce said:
I'm worried about you.
Click to expand...
I ain't never come home dead.
I ain't never starved to death.
My kids are on the AB honor roll.
I show up to work on time and get done considerably faster than peers with one of the greatest proficiency ratings.
I express interest in the well being of others.

I worry about you worrying about me.
HA!
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Nevermind...

BTW I agree with you Brian. Tarantino is good at finding little quirky things
and presenting them in a nice way. He's alsom good at finding music that way.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0 Downvote
There's a quote attributed to E.M Forster that, fwiw, makes the only useful distinction between story and plot that I can think of.

Only reference I found in the short time I spent digging:

E. M. Forster formulated the difference most memorably. He observed that if we write “The king died, and the queen died,” we have a narrative, but if we write, instead, “The king died, and the queen died of grief,” then we have a plot. The second assertion has established a link of cause between the two events.
Click to expand...

http://litera1no4.tripod.com/plot_frame.html

Seems simple enough.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Pulp Fiction's theme is what unites the disparate threads. I'd say the theme was about the risks of violence as a way of life. It's not a deep theme, so it's not a deep film, but it is indeed extremely stylish.

I prefer True Romance, written by Tarantino but directed by Tony Scott. The theme is about the American quest for coolness. Everybody is in the film is either already cool, trying to be cool, or failing at being cool. Christian Slater's mentor is Elvis, the King of Cool. Patricia Arquette even tells him at one point, "You're so cool." I think it's a really smart film about how Americans see themselves. It has both story and theme.

My point being that if you don't have story, then hammer on theme. That's often the approach taken by art house cinema, or European and Asian film. Americans are addicted to explanations, so Hollywood cinema is narrative-centric, but don't feel you have to go that route. If you throw out story, make sure to replace it with something just as strong and compelling.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Well yeah, you can't have story without plot. The examples you gave were ideas that have been done a lot before or aren't that great of a premise, like Saving Private Ryan, and The Social Network. But it's the plot within the mediocre premise that makes it good. It's good to do more original premises though, if you have any in mind.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
rayw said:
I ain't never come home dead.
I ain't never starved to death.
My kids are on the AB honor roll.
I show up to work on time and get done considerably faster than peers with one of the greatest proficiency ratings.
I express interest in the well being of others.

I worry about you worrying about me.
HA!
Click to expand...

I worry about you worrying about me worrying about you.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top