Is Story really that important?

[gibbo]

First of all, I'm a newbie and I don't really know what I'm talking about, I'm just externalising my thoughts in a way. But, don't let that stop you from putting me in my place

I've been seeing the old "Story is most important" being mentioned quite a bit in the books I read, interviews and articles that I've seen. But is this really the case?

Is Plot just as, or even more important that Story?

I ask because I was thinking that there are plenty of great films with a simple story that succeed because they are plotted well, obviously by good directors. What about this very basic story outline:

A group of soldiers infiltrate enemy lines to rescue another soldier after his brothers were killed in duty - Sounds pretty stock standard, right? but with a great Plot it becomes Saving Private Ryan.

Or:

A young college student decides to start a social networking site. Many people wrote this off: "A movie about facebook???!?! WTF??!?! - but with a great plot it becomes The Social Network.

And what is Pulp fiction about? What's the story about?

Seinfield is another example: A show about nothing (no story)

There are plenty more examples out there, I don't need to type some more in, but feel free to add some if you like.

So basically, I do believe that Story is important, yeah I do. But, I mean, I feel that Plot is at least as important, if not more so, than Story. There are plenty of TV shows and films with no real story, or nothing spectacular that are great. There are also plenty of movies and shows with good stories that are failures. Of course it works the other way too, and we could argue that acting or other aspects are just as important as well but for the sake of this thread, and to illustrate my point, can we keep it on plot vs story?

I have other stuff in my head that I want to say in relation to this but I just can't find the words to express what I mean, but it's all there in my head (sounds crazy?).

Anyway, I appreciate your input!

 

[Abraxas Studios]

Goodness.
Bad as I am about splitting hairs, even I couldn't cite the difference between "story" and "plot".

Forgive me while I investigate (to the likely benefit of those with the sense not to expose their deficiencies).

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/story
–noun
1. a narrative, either true or fictitious, in prose or verse, designed to interest, amuse, or instruct the hearer or reader; tale.
2. a fictitious tale, shorter and less elaborate than a novel.
3. such narratives or tales as a branch of literature: song and story.
4. the plot or succession of incidents of a novel, poem, drama, etc.: The characterizations were good, but the story was weak.
5. a narration of an incident or a series of events or an example of these that is or may be narrated, as an anecdote, joke, etc.
6. a narration of the events in the life of a person or the existence of a thing, or such events as a subject for narration: the story of medicine; the story of his life.
7. a report or account of a matter; statement or allegation: The story goes that he rejected the offer.
8. news story.
9. a lie or fabrication: What he said about himself turned out to be a story.
10. Obsolete . history.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/plot
–noun
1. a secret plan or scheme to accomplish some purpose, especially a hostile, unlawful, or evil purpose: a plot to overthrow the government.
2. Also called storyline. the plan, scheme, or main story of a literary or dramatic work, as a play, novel, or short story.
3. a small piece or area of ground: a garden plot; burial plot.
4. a measured piece or parcel of land: a house on a two-acre plot.
5. a plan, map, diagram, or other graphic representation, as of land, a building, etc.
6. a list, timetable, or scheme dealing with any of the various arrangements for the production of a play, motion picture, etc.: According to the property plot, there should be a lamp stage left.
7. a chart showing the course of a craft, as a ship or airplane.
8. Artillery . a point or points located on a map or chart: target plot.

Hmm...
Disappointingly somewhat circular, eh?

Further (dubious) elucidation:
Ain't helpin': http://www.learningnerd.com/the-difference-between-plot-and-story

Maybe I'm just dense, but doesn't this contradict what the previous article just stated?: http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/difference-between-plot-and-story/

A d@mn fine line: http://tech.mit.edu/V118/N29/sight.29a.html

There may be two half-decent nuggets in here:http://io9.com/5197310/whats-the-difference-between-story-and-plot
"Usually, there's an implication that "story" involves more of an emotional component, or some kind of magical alchemy, that's not present in mere plot."
and...
"So maybe a good plot is something that takes you from A to B to C without wrecking your suspension of disbelief, and keeps you guessing about what's going to happen next. And maybe a good story is something that delivers you at a destination, and in the end you understand how the journey all led up to this point."

LOL! I'm not the only one that can't keep the two straight!: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_difference_between_story_and_plot

Okay, I'm rubber stamping this particular hair splitting issue a big fat WHATEVER!

Plot is what is happening in the movie, what you can see happening

Story is, well, the story behind what is happening in the movie.

For example; a man breaks in to a building to defuse a bomb, that is the plot, the story is that he's doing it because his daughter is in the blast radius of the bomb and he's supposed to be keeping her safe.

Hope that clears it up for you

 

[brianluce]

Someone...please...delete this thread.

 

[learnfilmonline]

Packaging the movie with attachments, and distribution is more important. I know some may not agree, but I look at it as anyone can create a good story, but can anyone get star talent, and agent, and a distribution deal? Hmmm?

 

[gibbo]

Thanks for the replies guys!

Hmmm... I think that maybe I am missunderstanding Plot Vs. Story here. This is my definition:

Story is just that, the story, the premise, the narritive etc...

Plot is the way the story is plotted, using the word "plot" as a verb - Not so much what happens, but how it happens, giving it a sort of personal or emotion edge. (?)

I hope my definition is close, if so, then maybe I haven't been explaining myself correctly, My point is that ANY story can be made into a great movie if someone plots it correctly... David Fincher with The Social Network is a prime example here. As is Rodrigo Cortez with Buried. I'm also tempted to say Stephen Spielberg with Duel as well (not a bad story, just nothing special by any means)

So, to the people that say "You need a great story, story is everything, get a great story get a great story" Even the BEST story in the world, plotted terribly, will turn into a steam pile of dog vomit. On the other hand, a Plain Jane story that is not all that ground breaking, when plotted well, will be much more enjoyable and emotionally engaging than the "best story/bad plot". And I'm not trying to draw distinctions between bad story/good story/simple story/complicated story.

There are many other examples of mediocre stories being plotted well, the above examples are just off the top of my head. This is why I draw the conclusion that Plot is more important that Story.

I didn't really mean that Story is not important, because without a story there is no plot, just a blank piece of paper. One relies on the other.

Those are largely semantic distinctions you draw. Plot is generally considered one of the primary elements of story -- as is character.

Overall though, simple stories work better in movies/scripts in general, but along with the simplicity should go some potential for dramatic tension. For example, "A story about a big shark in the Atlantic" is not dramatic but a "A story about a big shark attacking beachgoers" is.

Even if you expand on the story of the big shark attacking beachgoers, it's still nothing special. That's my point entirely. It's the way it's plotted that makes it special.

And it also sounds like your idea of "story" is actually called a tagline. You described the "story" of The Social Network as "a young student decides to start a social network." But that's not the story, that's the tagline.

I chose to go with the loglines as I didn't see the need to put up a whole story outline or expand on it more than that. Even expanding on the story more reveals it to be something not so special.

On second thoughts maybe the social network isn't a good example, it's a pretty amazing story what that kid did and what he achieved.

Don't confuse simple with good/bad. You can have a simple, bad story just as easy as a complicated, bad story. A good story will be good. It doesn't matter if its complicated or not.

Forgive me, I never meant to implie that.

I don't think story is important - but context is.. and I imagine it's pretty difficult to create context without story..

Does that make sense?

Sort of, can you elaborate a bit?

Someone...please...delete this thread.

Oh? And why is that?

 

[brianluce]

Packaging the movie with attachments, and distribution is more important. I know some may not agree, but I look at it as anyone can create a good story, but can anyone get star talent, and agent, and a distribution deal? Hmmm?

Well sure, but why not just say the most important thing is doing a billion dollars of box office and setting the table for great merchandising and perhaps a theme park ride.

I don't know quite what you mean by "Anyone can create a good story", if you think it's easy, you're mistaken, assuming that by "Good" you mean something that can sustain and engage a reader for 120 pages or a audience for 100 minutes.

The other thing is a good story is the best way to attract star talent, get distro, and that theme park ride. That is the main thing people like Russel Crowe and Ridley Scott look for: Story.

 

[brianluce]

Thanks for the replies guys!

Hmmm... I think that maybe I am missunderstanding Plot Vs. Story here. This is my definition:

Story is just that, the story, the premise, the narritive etc...

Plot is the way the story is plotted, using the word "plot" as a verb - Not so much what happens, but how it happens, giving it a sort of personal or emotion edge. (?)

I hope my definition is close, if so, then maybe I haven't been explaining myself correctly, My point is that ANY story can be made into a great movie if someone plots it correctly... David Fincher with The Social Network is a prime example here. As is Rodrigo Cortez with Buried. I'm also tempted to say Stephen Spielberg with Duel as well (not a bad story, just nothing special by any means) ?

So much semantic quibbling, call it whatever you want, but a good movie or novel has a cool idea told well. Not a boring idea told well, not a cool idea told in a boring way, but a cool idea told well. It's so simple to say and next to impossible to do.

 

[learnfilmonline]

Well sure, but why not just say the most important thing is doing a billion dollars of box office and setting the table for great merchandising and perhaps a theme park ride.

I don't know quite what you mean by "Anyone can create a good story", if you think it's easy, you're mistaken, assuming that by "Good" you mean something that can sustain and engage a reader for 120 pages or a audience for 100 minutes.

The other thing is a good story is the best way to attract star talent, get distro, and that theme park ride. That is the main thing people like Russel Crowe and Ridley Scott look for: Story.

I can see your viewpoint. I just never had problems with coming up with good stories. It was always all about the other stuff, funding, distro,etc. I'm gaining major momentum in the business with TV pilots, and some Hollywood connects, because I focused more on the system. Check out A&E Saturdays noon Flipping Vegas, I worked on that pilot before lions gate bought it. And i'm in talks now with some major networks on another Tv pilot. So brianluce, I'm just talking actual real experience not something you think would work. The big boys in Holly world all looking for good packaged systems. Now please don't miss understand me on saying story is not important. Of course story helps. But think about it? You don't go to McDonalds cause they have great burgers. You go cause you like the fast system they use. Indy filmmakers really need to grasp that Hollywood is a business looking for people that know how to market, and make the movie work. Not how artsy, and good the story is. I don't want to take you guys off topic, keep chating about your plot and all which is important when your just talking about story. But I take it that all of you want to work in the business at higher levels. Why not play like the big boys get in, then change the game. Just my 2 cents.

 

[brianluce]

I can see your viewpoint. I just never had problems with coming up with good stories. It was always all about the other stuff, funding, distro,etc. I'm gaining major momentum in the business with TV pilots, and some Hollywood connects, because I focused more on the system. Check out A&E Saturdays noon Flipping Vegas, I worked on that pilot before lions gate bought it. And i'm in talks now with some major networks on another Tv pilot. So brianluce, I'm just talking actual real experience not something you think would work. The big boys in Holly world all looking for good packaged systems. Now please don't miss understand me on saying story is not important. Of course story helps. But think about it? You don't go to McDonalds cause they have great burgers. You go cause you like the fast system they use. Indy filmmakers really need to grasp that Hollywood is a business looking for people that know how to market, and make the movie work. Not how artsy, and good the story is. I don't want to take you guys off topic, keep chating about your plot and all which is important when your just talking about story. But I take it that all of you want to work in the business at higher levels. Why not play like the big boys get in, then change the game. Just my 2 cents.

An unfortunate conflation of artsy and story in this post.

If you;re telling us we should be focusing on getting reputable actors and directors and distro deals attached to a script then please share. That's normally what is meant by "Packaging", and it doesn't happen without some sort of good spec or pre existing media -- such as a comic or bestseller. Packaging is something done at the highest levels of the industry -- it's the dealmaking where greenlights are born. If you got some IT shortcut perhaps you could share it here.

And I don't eat at McDonald's.

 

[learnfilmonline]

An unfortunate conflation of artsy and story in this post.

If you;re telling us we should be focusing on getting reputable actors and directors and distro deals attached to a script then please share. That's normally what is meant by "Packaging", and it doesn't happen without some sort of good spec or pre existing media -- such as a comic or bestseller. Packaging is something done at the highest levels of the industry -- it's the dealmaking where greenlights are born. If you got some IT shortcut perhaps you could share it here.

And I don't eat at McDonald's.

I'm working that angle right now. And yes that's what I'm telling you.

 

[Jamster]

Yes.

No actors or writers around 'cept us by the looks of it Steve...

And yes I agree - someone delete this thread plllleeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaasssssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeee!!!


Or I'll start a "are directors necessary?" Thread...

 

[gibbo]

No actors or writers around 'cept us by the looks of it Steve...

Obviously...

That's why it's in the Newbie section

And yes I agree - someone delete this thread plllleeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaasssssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeee!!!


Or I'll start a "are directors necessary?" Thread...

ha! why delete it? You're the 2nd person to say that without giving a good reason...

It's a perfectly legitimate discussion and something I'm interested in - you don't like don't read!