Frustrated with the indie film scene

well, that's the price to pay as indie filmmaker, we sacrify soo much with no little of return, it's scary. Now, $120k in development, how much money does he think he can get a return (hoping there is some name actors)....

Have you thought of replacing their faces digitally? (since technology is there now) hehe, or change their voices to be someone else's (like a named star)

Believe me, even right now i"m in post production of a genre movie, I am still VERY skepitcal of it's success (because we are trying to put a PLOT into a genre film that might be boring with no named stars)... but I just keep it going, let's see how bad it will sank. but never give up and forget about the past, move on, let the bitterness go or it will influence on you in the future.
 
Financial stress ... Marriage stress ... running two other businesses ... outlook worse than when I produced the first movie ... I honestly don't think there is a chance for ANY of us to produce that "next great movie." Don't let that stop you (I'm just bitter)
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I remember the bitter phase -- trust me it does pass. And, after the first big fall it takes a massive amount of effort to dust yourself off and start again. Especially when you start adding up the personal cost -- and trust me, your marriage and sanity are worth more than any film.

Where I just don't agree is that it is impossible to make it.

Since I stopped seeing production as my primary goal and have concentrated on writing, I have had turned down three options on one script (currently discussing terms with a forth company) and have made significant in roads into mainstream professional screen writing. A process that has also been about making sure that the next time I get into production the script right.

I've also taken the time to rebuild a new production company from scratch, working towards the point where I'd have all the production equipment I need to make a feature film. A point I finally hit four weeks ago.

It's taken nearly two years to reach this point, but none of that time has been wasted.

I'm not in a hurry to get back into production, because the trick in this business is to get everything right and not everything right now.

When I used to teach actors about the business I used to start the year with my "reality check" lecture. In this lecture I'd explain the realities of rejections:

It goes like this, if you audition then your life will feel like this: No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, NO YOU SUCK!, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, YOU MUST BE KIDDING ME!, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No... Yes

There is always a yes at the end of the list, if the list is long enough and if you learn as you go along, but most people can not deal with enough rejections to get to the YES or they lose confidence and blow every chance they get.

Film making is exactly the same. We have a limit to how much reject we can take before we quit, but real question is why we started in the first place. My take on it now is you have to have an equal measure of confidence and critical awareness -- or to use an older term, humility.

I've got a lot of compulsive gambler blood in my family and a lot of Irish rebelliousness as well, so I'm not predisposed to either cutting my loses or towing the line. I also believe that there is a formula for success in low/no budget film production and anyone who really wanted to make it, could find most of the information scattered amongst the posts in this forum.

But, the key elements are as follows:

a high concept genre film (preferably with two names)
script written by someone who understands structure, and that matches current Hollywood baseline standards
a director who can make the most of the format available, rather than trying to make DV look like film
and finally
a producer who accepts sole and total responsibility for creating a demand (an audience) for their product
 
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We thought about trying to get the story produced off-Broadway (and even thought it would make a pretty hilarious puppet show). I'll talk to the Director about slapping DeNiro's face onto one of our principle actors .. I think that would go over well (like a fart in church).

Seriously, if I could do it all again (same storyline ... actors ... etc) I would have foregone ANY stress about quality/unkeeping the seriousness of the movie. The Waiter in the movie would have gone on a killing spree after catching our lead actress in the shower (soaping down another actress). My chances of it selling increase 1000% and THEN I can make an artsy movie (which, by the way, I've already written and I really think its GREAT ... ) I think this is the advice I would give any new/first-time filmmaker. Go for shock first!

I was the "never give up" guy a year ago (I seriously was ... look at my old posts). I was SURE we would make ONE festival and spent every hour on Without A Box checking in. One by one we got nixed and one by one I realized all the mistakes I made ($100 at a time).

Maybe I'll do porn.
 
Clive,

Was responding to mdifilm and your post must have come in. Thanks for your insight. I've been "following" what you've been doing for a while and am very impressed with your talent. As it is right now, MY talent is better spent in commercial work/design, etc. It has afforded me a very comfortable lifestyle (cars, boats, homes, hot tubs) and I will always look BACK on "Waiting on Alphie" as a trememdous life experience. BUT ... I will not make another indie film with someone else's money even WITH named actors.

It increases your chances but is NO guarantee (I have two friends who directed movies with named actors in the SAME position I'm in).
 
As it is right now, MY talent is better spent in commercial work/design, etc. It has afforded me a very comfortable lifestyle (cars, boats, homes, hot tubs) and I will always look BACK on "Waiting on Alphie" as a trememdous life experience. BUT ... I will not make another indie film with someone else's money even WITH named actors.
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I can respect that. And, I hope it brings you everything you want from life.

I find myself in the odd position of seeing for the first time what a blessing it is that I have nothing more to lose by hanging in. In your position I'd probably fold as well.

Isn't life odd.

I do have one question though -- if you could make a commerically successful movie, something you really believed in, on a $1000 production budget, would you?

I guess I just want to know whether it's the money or the failure that is driving you out of the door.
 
It goes like this, if you audition then your life will feel like this: No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, NO YOU SUCK!, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, YOU MUST BE KIDDING ME!, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No... Yes

Yes i know that feeling when i was in London auditioning for commercials, TV, theatre and even chat shows! Nearly every audition was an absolute cattle market all competing for that one part and the more i was rejected the lower went my moral. But then i could be sat at home minding my own business then phone rings and theres my agent saying "hello Eddie Rex, you've got the part and rehearsals begin next week," and i would think woooo there is a God!

I am sure its the same with filmmaking, only i have not made a feature yet.

There is always a yes at the end of the list, if the list is long enough and if you learn as you go along, but most people can not deal with enough rejections to get to the YES or they lose confidence and blow every chance they get.

I am sure there is a yes out there somewhere for all of us and that "yes" is more likely to happen if your reputation is known to be good. I have only made a handful of short films but i noticed their all "well remembered," or is that me?

If a film is to be a commodity the content should be outrageous and shocking, for example when i saw the stage play "The Vagina Monologues" the play talks about the female anatomy, and was sold out on every performance. But with an eye catching title like "The Vagina Monologues" what do you expect!
 
If anything, Alphie, you could use the movie to show to producers as a "demo" to get a Deniro and Spacey version made? Throw some action packed flashbacks (think Usual Suspects) in there to get some diversity, and try and sell the rights to recoup a profit.

I went and saw a film called "Sidekick" about a comic book nerd who finds out a co-worker has telekinetic powers. He trains the guy, hoping to be his sidekick, and in the end, the guy turns out to be a villian. To top it off, they got Daniel Baldwin to play a supporting role.
They ended up selling the rights to remake the movie with A-listers, AND got to keep the original rights to the film (or so they say). Maybe you could get something going along those lines?

But yeah- never give up! Just lower your standards. :P
 
We actually did have a Producer's Rep willing to show the movie/script to "the right people" to get it made into a "big time" Hollywood production. And it was only going to cost us $10,500. The upside of any of this is that we DO have a finished movie on DVD so ... if for some reason I DO bump into Deniro down in Tribeca, I'm not handing him a script.

Clive, I want to make movies. I want to write (which I have) and produce (which I have) and direct (which I have) ... but the one thing I haven't done is MAKE A DIME doing it. If I were 19 and had no mortgage and no mouths to feed, I would be all over this modern-day filmmaking (and I'd be damn good at it). But for now it remains an EXTREMELY expensive hobby.

IF I win a million bucks in the scratchers ... 1) Pay back my investors; 2) Make a movie.
 
Alphie said:
I want to make movies. I want to write (which I have) and produce (which I have) and direct (which I have) ... but the one thing I haven't done is MAKE A DIME doing it. If I were 19 and had no mortgage and no mouths to feed, I would be all over this modern-day filmmaking (and I'd be damn good at it). But for now it remains an EXTREMELY expensive hobby.
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I couldn't have said it better myself. :clap:
 
Alphie! I'm sorry to hear that you've become a widow. I honestly didn't know you were based in South Africa; that's harsh. I wish I could help, but Bush has put a freeze on my Nigerian bank account.

(you obviously have too much time to ruminate on this!)
 
that's silly...I hope it gets some recognition to help you raise money for your next film...those scams are damned annoying.
 
Alphie,

Your right. There are no easy answers. I actually had a somewhat successfully indie project but am now convinced that to ever escape that "micro budget mold-50k and and less"..you can't do it without MAJOR distribution.

We have had some success with marketing and cross promotion. Our first project hasn't sold well but got into 3 festivals and won an award (Best film under $25,000 at Creation Arts Fest), Then our second project (www.squad77movie.com) did do much better and was cross promoted with talk radio, merchandise(video game, graphic novel spin offs, indie recording artists, ect) and has been accepted into both Festivals entered so far the most current being www.wysiwygfilmworks.com - It's also gained international tv broadcasts in New Zealand, Romania, Indonesia, and Australia..we're currenlty being reviewed by family distributor-if we caught a break it could help us escape the "micro budget" mold..if not we're still marching on shooting as creative of projects as possible. But I don't think you can really "make" it as an indie producer without MAJOR Distribution or help of somekind...I think everyone is trying to figure out that distribution puzzle.

We've been enabled to do a third feature (docu in progress) and hopefully another one after that. But I think there are a few key factors that have kept us somewhat in the "game".

1. Genre..we're faith based filmmakers and that's a very specific audience and genre. Fox Faith is launching their own distribution arm..Sony recently put "Facing the Giants" into theatres. There is already a built in audience. If your not creating something that already has an audience waiting, it's tough. Even within our niche, the major studios are now wanting to produce and distribution their own faith based films and avoid having to pick up "indies"..the fewer indies they let in the door, the fewer "filmmakers" they let thru the gates. Plus the studios have more $, which means higher production values to keep an edge. There are gatekeepers and they don't want too many people becoming part of the club. A few slip thru every year to keep peoples hopes alive. I was interviewed by a New York reporter not long ago and asked some questions about this new studio movement and if the Christian audience would buy into it. I said, maybe if it's not studios making all the films and actually men of faith behind it. The audience will figure out whether or not the filmmakers are authentic and that will determine whether the Fox Faith and other movements like it are huge successes or flops. It's been well documented that family friendly clean films sell better than R rated movies. Really, it's like there are two profitable ends of the spectrum in indie. Family movies and porn(which I'm personally against), or some other niche. Hollywood controls everything in between. I don't think you can beat the studios at their own game.

2. Someone in the business told me that since it's so relational of a business, you should invest your money into actually attending conferences/events and meeting the right people(more benifitial for writers). It was an interesting approach, not sure I 100 percent agree, but a interesting thought nontheless. I'm sure most people would rather just make a product and believe it would somehow catch fire.
 
Very well said, reeceracer. Obviously all of this gets filed in the "lessons learned" folder in the file cabinet of my life. Would I go through all of this again? Not a chance. If someone approached ME with $500,000 would I make the move I want to make (with NO strings attached) ... you betcha.

I was actually toying with the family movie market. I was working on titles in the 'Tween Screen genre. Capturing those audiences that LOVE silly family movies (ie Home Alone). I think specifically making 'G' rated movies with a message and targeting to 8-12 year-olds would do very well.
 
Hmm...

Well, I'm no pro like most of the guys on this board and I haven't gone through any of these trials and tribulations yet (hopefully won't...knock on wood), but I can just give you some feedback as someone who loves a great film.

So in watching the trailer, the quality did seem great. But I wasn't pulled in at all. I kept wanting to be, but I wasn't. I wonder if you reworked that trailer and then tried and remarket the whole thing if that may help. It just seems that when folks buy your film or rent it online...they want to see a good trailer.

Just my thoughts...
 
There is not much to be said of the quality of films in theatrical release. I worked for a big studio over the summer and as their product menu become more and more formulaic, so too does that of the indie film. The problem is competition in the marketplace. I think indie companies still try and produce edgy product, but they have to base their aquisitions on their marketability. This is not always a bad thing, but it does push out the quite family drama and other films less unique in content, regardless of the quality of the script.

DOES ANYONE HAVE RECCOMENDATIONS ON NEW FILMS???

I heard about an up and coming film that may be an entry at Sundance. The trailer looks cool. It is bizarre and edgy, but still has that marketability, especially with teen audiences. It will be interesting to see if it does well in theatrical release. I know there has been some word of mouth on the internet. Check it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBmiN7Jemdc
 
Wow phoebz, you really love that trailer don't you. Four out of your five posts today link it. What connection do you have to the movie?
 
Not personally, my friend cut the trailers and gave me the script to read. It's an honest, unbiased recommendation, in that I really enjoyed what I read; a bizarre, loaded addition to the Indie genre’s younger, 20 something audience. I put the link on my signature now, so it won't seem like a shameless plug. I just think the film is an interesting example of how Indie films are trying to remake certain popular genres that exist in the catalogue of big box-office releases and make them edgier, sexier, and darker, while still appealing to the same target audience. I think Elvis and Anabelle, if it were being produced by a big studio, could easily be marketed to a large teen base as a new breed of teeny-bopper flick. Unfortunately, they would have to cut together some trailers that didn't involve necrophilia, which is a rather large plot key in the film. Hence, why it has taken the indie route. Anyway, I am looking forward to seeing it, and I am curious to see how Max Minghella handles the part. He has chosen some pretty interesting films and I thought he was good in Art School Confidential.

In the future, I always think it’s helpful in these discussions to bring in examples of films we've recently seen or heard about. ReeceRacer's example of "facing the Giants," I found particularly interesting. But I apologize if you feel my contribution to these forums has been rather one-note.
 
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