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sfoster

Staff Member
Moderator
Ah... Well I do know it got interest right away... I was pulling from memory instead of looking it up. My mistake.

For screenwriters who can really EXECUTE? I do think it's only a matter of coming up with a great concept... For breaking into Hollywood that is. If you're going Indie, one can obviously do anything they want... Yet? Having said that? If I were going to be making an Indie film, I sure as hell would try to NAIL the concept down so that the story itself is KING.

Along the road of my journey in this business? I've helped more screenwriters than I can count... Many of them have obtained representation and even won competitions but none (none that I've helped) have actually sold a spec yet and my personal opinion is simply because of their concept... We've basically seen IT already.

It's even HARDER today... In fact? I have a difficult time getting screenwriters wanting to break in to the business to believe that their concept is EASILY as important (and sometimes MORE important) than the execution. You can still sell a shitty execution with a great concept... LOL. I KEEP SEEING IT HAPPEN every year.

I wrote a couple of articles about high concept for ScriptMag.com a few years back... Maybe more. As it turns out, according to ScriptMag's editor? Those two articles by far get sometimes a third to half the traffic the entire site gets even after all these years. Because of those two articles? I receive anywhere from 1 to 25 DMs in Twitter on a daily basis of screenwriters asking me to read their scripts. They want to know if their script is HIGH CONCEPT.

So instead of reading them... I just do not have the time to read all those... I ask them to just pitch me their logline.

More than half the time? I never hear back but when I do? We've seen it before. Once I tell them the truth... Sounds derivative of such and such movie and based on your logline, we've probably seen something very similar to it before? In my opinion, it would be a difficult sell.

Just today alone, I had 3 filmmakers ask me to watch their short films on YouTube. All were way too long for what the story was about. But I watched each one of them and told the filmmakers what I thought. So far? One disagreed with me and proceeded to try and sell me on WHY he was right and I was wrong.

I could very well be wrong... I like what I like. But I'm also a producer and a writer. I read professional specs all the time. Even a lot of those are SHIT in my humble opinion. Why? They are executed well but they are movies we've already seen.

I guess what I'm saying is simply this... You can even try to help someone and trust me... I try to be NICE about my critiques and I actually put quite a bit of thought into them as well but 90% of the time? All I get are arguments about WHY the choices they made about their story are good enough. They will even CONFIRM to me that what they've created is something we've already seen before by telling me it's easily as good as such and such movie... LOL. Most of the time? It's a very weak knockoff of such and such movie.

I take all of it with a grain of salt though because I think we all know that most of the people getting involved in filmmaking or screenwriting won't stick with it for the duration. Unfortunately, I have no crystal ball to know who those people are so I try to be honest and NICE as I critique their material and remember... They came to ME. I never seek them out.

My guess is that a lot of filmmakers and screenwriters feel so good about their material that they really think getting someone in the business to read or watch is going to confirm their opinion. And? I get that. I really do. But I also think I have an obligation to be honest with them. So I am. All the time HOPING they stick with it (assuming it really is what they want to DO).

So this is another long-winded reply from me simply to say... That unless there is a way to skim the cream off the top? A new website putting people together is fine and dandy but it doesn't guarantee anything except getting collaborators together.

Like @directorik said somewhere above about working on projects that MATTERED TO HIM? No matter HOW you find those projects... You're going to have to be the judge of whether the material matters to you or not. Usually? By either reading the script and or FEELING the passion of the filmmaker or writer of the material and getting inspired.

Interesting stuff really. appreciate the dialogue.
One of my favorite movies is "The Man From Nowhere" and its so fucking basic that you will roll your eyes.
Plot: Lil girl gets napped. Man kicks ass to save her.
But damn its so well made I love it

And you know you can start a commodity business and say "I'm gonna make the best damn ketchup and people will spit out heinz if you try to serve it to them after they've tasted my ketchup!" and you can be successful.

You say the key is an original concept but you also say nobody you've helped has ever made it. IDK what to make of that TBH.

I've written a bunch of plots and short screenplays in the last month. Here are a few of them.
1) If a ghost can haunt a house, a shark can haunt a pool. If you swim alone in this pool, a shark will swim over and kill you.
2) A coven of witches are attacked by a robot from outerspace
3) A 11 y.o. girls family is murdered in front of her. She becomes violent in the foster home, gets a gun from the secret safe in her parents old house, goes for revenge.

Now I think two of those are pretty original but I'm also really excited about making #3. It's just a genre film of hitgirl from kickass though.
I think the first two are original ideas.

I told my dad #2 and he said it was like cowboys vs aliens lol. Some people are such harsh critics.
This is a fantasy sci fi with witches casting magic .. not cowboys. and The aliens are machines the aren't organic.
Yet there we go i was shot down for being unoriginal.

people hear #1 and they say sharknado. i dont get it.
#1 is about making people afraid to swim in pools alone. its about instilling fear of swimming pools. not random fucking sharnados
but that is the criticism i get

What do you think
 
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LOL. You don't know what to make of it? Well here's what I meant... They pretty much ALL learned HOW to EXECUTE. They pretty much all were IN LOVE with their concepts i.e., those were the concepts they wanted to sell. However, none of those concepts SOLD because in my humble opinion? They weren't good ENOUGH. They were derivative of other films we've seen. When a producer reads coverage and the coverage says PASS mostly because the material is like some other movie?

THEY PASS. LOL.

Having said that? Many of the people I've helped along the way were able to pick up representation and even a few writing gigs here and there so it wasn't a complete failure.

I have always told everyone I've ever helped that that I didn't think their spec was strong enough to actually SELL. I did say it would probably make for a decent sample of their writing but those screenwriters believed in their story so much that they just decided I was wrong. Which is fine. Like I said... I feel like I have an obligation to tell them the truth.

So I do.

The subtext of your reply however... At least to me? Intimates that maybe I'm not good enough to help them. LOL. Which also may be true. But YOU certainly don't know that. LOL. Be that as it may? You don't have to know what to think of it.

It is what it is.

I've read all your short script plot ideas... I think for short scripts, they're all fine. As possible features? That's an entirely different subject but had you asked for that kind of opinion? I would have been more than happy to give you my two cents.

Personally? I just don't see a lot of shorts get a lot of traction for the filmmakers. I think they are great as practice and learning and even a shitty concept (not that any of yours are) is probably worth getting both the practice and experience.
 
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sfoster

Staff Member
Moderator
They were derivative of other films we've seen. When a producer reads coverage and the coverage says PASS mostly because the material is like some other movie?

The subtext of your reply however... At least to me? Intimates that maybe I'm not good enough to help them. LOL. Which also may be true. But YOU certainly don't know that. LOL. Be that as it may? You don't have to know what to think of it.

It is what it is.

I've read all your short script plot ideas... I think for short scripts, they're all fine. As possible features? That's an entirely different subject but had you asked for that kind of opinion? I would have been more than happy to give you my two cents.

Personally? I just don't see a lot of shorts get a lot of traction for the filmmakers. I think they are great as practice and learning and even a shitty concept (not that any of yours are) is probably worth getting both the practice and experience.

I was curious about how 'original' you thought those ideas were.
For example witches vs a robot alien was in no way shape or form influenced by cowboys vs aliens yet i was shot down for being derivative of it lol.

Because if someone is going to be that critical you could just as easily come out and say DarkCity with kung fu.
Thats actually what I thought when I saw the matrix. Yet i still loved the matrix.
If youre going to be that critical and change this, change that, then anything is derivative of anything. movies have been made for over a century.

I am not an accomplished screen writer and none of those concepts were designed to be features, I've never tried to write a feature length script.
 
I think they're very original... Even the witches vs. a robot alien.

Out of them all however? I like the little girl assassins plot best... I think if done correctly? Could make a great feature spec.

I'm EDITING this just to add... Even if it didn't sell because those in the business found it a bit too risky? If executed WELL? Could be the kind of spec that gets you representation, writing gigs, and of course, general meetings.
 
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sfoster

Staff Member
Moderator
I think they're very original... Even the witches vs. a robot alien.

Out of them all however? I like the little girl assassins plot best... I think if done correctly? Could make a great feature spec.

I'm EDITING this just to add... Even if it didn't sell because those in the business found it a bit too risky? If executed WELL? Could be the kind of spec that gets you representation, writing gigs, and of course, general meetings.

Awesome that it's realistic and possible to be original in your eyes.
Some people are so critical that the bar is in the sky.

It should be of note that the one you like the most is the one that's least original.
Although its also the one thats not a screenplay.. just a plot format. maybe that makes it more accessible ?

the little girl assassin plot was influence by fucking tommy waseau of all people.
the dude is batshit crazy but I watched a youtube video of him and he said something that resonated with me.
~"every single scene should be its own short story." thats the approach I took when I wrote it.
 

sfoster

Staff Member
Moderator
The subtext of your reply however... At least to me? Intimates that maybe I'm not good enough to help them. LOL. Which also may be true. But YOU certainly don't know that. LOL. Be that as it may? You don't have to know what to think of it.

I was considering that possibility hahaha but no amount of help is going to give someone else originality of creative thought.
thats not your responsibility.
 
I've found that it's quite EASY to help someone think outside the box... Some people just simply do NOT want to do it. Another problem I've seen throughout the years is how screenwriters wanting to break into the business simply cannot be brutal to their protagonists. They are just way too nice to them and hence... Very little conflict.
 
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sfoster

Staff Member
Moderator
I've found that it's quite EASY to help someone think outside the box... Some people just simply do NOT want to do it. Another problem I've seen throughout the years is how screenwriters wanting to break into the business simply cannot be brutal to their protagonists. They are just way too nice to them and hence... Very little conflict.

I find many pretentious artists are intensely focused on what they put into their work and completely ignorant or apathetic about what the audience gets out of that work. I'm trying to get my shit together and start writing features so i can get an agent and start adulting. ive been a mess for a number of years now.
 
Well like I said... I don't mind helping. I don't mind telling people what I know to be true about writing screenplays and the business side but you always have to take everything you read or hear with a grain of salt because (especially in this industry) one size does NOT fit all. However, there are a lot of things ONE CAN DO to tip the scales MORE in their favor. It's just amazing to me how many people just think they can bypass all that because they are ready now.

I've had more than a few people come back to me after a few years of having helped them... They got representation based on a spec I had helped them on or had placed in competitions. Ultimately however, they were asked the inevitable question, "What else ya got?" Why? Because their new reps didn't think they could sell the spec that got them in the door.

Which I had already told them.

Most of these screenwriters went on to write several more... Hell, even 5 or 6 more specs. A couple got even more placings in competition but went nowhere because competitions simply do not seem to care about what can sell. They almost seem like they want to CHANGE Hollywood's mind on what they should make but that ain't gonna happen because this is a business. No producer I know of wants to make a movie that doesn't make a profit.

But like I said... Many have come back to me saying, "Okay... I'm ready to listen now."

Huh? LOL. I was never the one that sought them out. They asked for my help but now after a modicum of success (getting repped), they come back like I've been chomping at the bit to help them again.

Nope.

That's another reason this industry gets annoying sometimes... Some people seem to have an interesting sense of entitlement.

But yeah... I'd either take one of the concepts you already like a lot and believe you can commit to for several months and turn it into a feature spec or come up with one that you like a lot and can commit to. After awhile? They become like pieces of virtual real estate always out there working for you when you least expect it. I get at least a call a month on some spec I wrote years ago. Once you get a few in the system? Shit happens eventually.
 
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sfoster

Staff Member
Moderator
Well like I said... I don't mind helping. I don't mind telling people what I know to be true about writing screenplays and the business side but you always have to take everything you read or hear with a grain of salt because (especially in this industry) one size does NOT fit all. However, there are a lot of things ONE CAN DO to tip the scales MORE in their favor. It's just amazing to me how many people just think they can bypass all that because they are ready now.

I've had more than a few people come back to me after a few years of having helped them... They got representation based on a spec I had helped them on or had placed in competitions. Ultimately however, they were asked the inevitable question, "What else ya got?" Why? Because their new reps didn't think they could sell the spec that got them in the door.

Which I had already told them.

Most of these screenwriters went on to write several more... Hell, even 5 or 6 more specs. A couple got even more placings in competition but went nowhere because competitions simply do not seem to care about what can sell. They almost seem like they want to CHANGE Hollywood's mind on what they should make but that ain't gonna happen because this is a business. No producer I know of wants to make a movie that doesn't make a profit.

But like I said... Many have come back to me saying, "Okay... I'm ready to listen now."

Huh? LOL. I was never the one that sought them out. They asked for my help but now after a modicum of success (getting repped), they come back like I've been chomping at the bit to help them again.

Nope.

That's another reason this industry gets annoying sometimes... Some people seem to have an interesting sense of entitlement.

But yeah... I'd either take one of the concepts you already like a lot and believe you can commit to for several months and turn it into a feature spec or come up with one that you like a lot and can commit to. After awhile? They become like pieces of virtual real estate always out there working for you when you least expect it. I get at least a call a month on some spec I wrote years ago. Once you get a few in the system? Shit happens eventually.

Not just this industry, it's a whole generation. you lose that sense of entitlement though as the world beats you down and you suffer failures.
Once I get 3-4 short scripts refined to the point I'm ready to shoot and I can start those in the pipeline I'm gonna set to work on writing a feature.

I dont have a life at all so I need to direct some short films to stay active
 

directorik

IndieTalk's Resident Guru
This has been a fascinating discussion between sfoster and Unknown.

To be a little more clear on my point: I never said, nor suggested, that
making a movie was easy. What I tried to say (but not with any clarity it
seems) was that today a filmmaker can make a movie and get it in front
of an audience in a way that was not available just 10 years ago. It is no
longer prohibitively expensive to do both those essential aspects of
filmmaking.

I never said, or suggested, a filmmaker can make exactly the movie they
want to make. A creative writer/director can do something amazing with
almost no money – just creativity, passion and drive.

Now Telkk's new business model for the film industry suggests any
filmmaker with any idea will be able to find the right professionals and
raise the financing to make (or collaborate) on the projects that only
matter to them the most. Sounds exactly like what sfoster needs.

Hell, I would love that. ONE; to be able to make projects that only matter
to me the most and, TWO; to be able to work on projects that only matter
to me the most.

So I am rooting for this new business model for the film industry.

Like Unknown Screenwriter, I tend to be very skeptical of this new business
model. If for no other reason than I don't believe everyones movie idea is
good enough. But also because of my experience in this industry. The current
business model isn't as exclusive and limiting as most think it is.

If this new business model doesn’t allow every person with a great idea to get
a movie financed then it's no different than what is already available. One will
have to “break in” to this model, too.

But I don't know. Because Telkk isn't able to offer up all the details right now.
Just speculating. And waiting for the launch of this new business model for
the film industry.
 
To be a little more clear on my point: I never said, nor suggested, that
making a movie was easy. What I tried to say (but not with any clarity it
seems) was that today a filmmaker can make a movie and get it in front
of an audience in a way that was not available just 10 years ago. It is no
longer prohibitively expensive to do both those essential aspects of
filmmaking.

I never said, or suggested, a filmmaker can make exactly the movie they
want to make. A creative writer/director can do something amazing with
almost no money – just creativity, passion and drive.

I know your postings well enough (I used to be on here all the time many years ago albeit under a different username) to know what you meant. It certainly ain't easy to make that perfect version of the movie in our mind's eye.

But with the accessibility of everything we need to make movies today? A lot of shit does hit the fan. And a lot those projects start off as amazing, inspiring projects but somewhere down the line, they just don't get it done. That's the tough part and I think we all know that. Hell, all one has to do is dig into both Netflix and Amazon Prime to see plenty of movies with A List Talent that didn't get it done either so when I say all this? It's not to be judgmental or disheartening. In reality? I would love to see everyone do well with their projects. That would be AMAZING.

I too would love to see Telkk's business model bring it all together for Indie filmmakers. I am here rooting for him and his partners. Unfortunately? At least for me? It's gonna have to be one of those SEE IT TO BELIEVE IT deals. Why? Because there are simply SO MANY VARIABLES involved. Being able to line them all up just right?

I gots to see it...
 
It should be of note that the one you like the most is the one that's least original.

Why should THAT be of NOTE? I keep feeling that you're TRYING to TELL ME SOMETHING. If so? Just spit out. LOL.

I don't think that needs to be of any NOTE at all. Original is in the EYE of the BEHOLDER. I look at things with an eye toward them actually being fleshed out as features and commercial. That's where my head is at. That's how I judge even ideas for shorts. Not that you're going to actually flesh any of your plots out as feature scripts. But out of everything I've read of yours thus far? In my humble opinion, if done as a feature spec? It would have the best chance of getting your foot into the door. Just sayin' based on my own experience.

As just a short though? As I said before... Any of your ideas work as both practice and experience. I personally just don't see shorts as a way into the business... Not that that's what you're attempting... I don't know that but that's one of the aspects I use to judge.
 

sfoster

Staff Member
Moderator
Why should THAT be of NOTE? I keep feeling that you're TRYING to TELL ME SOMETHING. If so? Just spit out. LOL.

I don't think that needs to be of any NOTE at all. Original is in the EYE of the BEHOLDER. I look at things with an eye toward them actually being fleshed out as features and commercial. That's where my head is at. That's how I judge even ideas for shorts. Not that you're going to actually flesh any of your plots out as feature scripts. But out of everything I've read of yours thus far? In my humble opinion, if done as a feature spec? It would have the best chance of getting your foot into the door. Just sayin' based on my own experience.

As just a short though? As I said before... Any of your ideas work as both practice and experience. I personally just don't see shorts as a way into the business... Not that that's what you're attempting... I don't know that but that's one of the aspects I use to judge.

😄 😄 😄 the conversation is an exploration. i'm not smart enough to just spit it out bc i need the journey to get there first.
there are definitely examples of shorts that get people into the business. "Whiplash" for example. a short that turned into an amazing film and gave the guy a serious career

i think what is of NOTE is ... the best ideas have all been done. Someones family is murdered and they get revenge. fucking awesome.
Who can disagree that it makes for an amazing movie?? for that reason alone it has been done a bunch of times.
and for that exact same reason no "original" idea can match it.. its just too cool of a concept, so cool that we have seen it decade after decade after decade. so cool that its the concept that you say i should go with too. and I don't even disagree!!

especially since I concur that those other shorts wouldn't make good features. thats not what they were designed to do :)
Fuck I just want to film a shark eating someone that is gonna be awesome! lol.
 
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LOL. There are examples of shorts that get people into the business... I grant you that but it's still like winning the lottery. What YOU'RE telling me is very much what wannabe screenwriters tell me all the time when I tell them I don't think their spec can sell. They IMMEDIATELY point out the movie (usually the movie that their spec is derivative from) that is similar to their spec. While all that is fine and dandy? It doesn't change the fact that we're playing the lottery here.

This time however... Based on your usual comments? I've looked it up:

WHIPLASH

Please make note of this paragraph:

Right of Way Films and Blumhouse Productions helped Chazelle turn 15 pages of his original screenplay into a short film starring Johnny Simmons as Neiman and J. K. Simmons (no relation) as Fletcher. The 18-minute short film received acclaim after debuting at the 2013 Sundance Film Festival, winning the short film Jury Award for fiction, which attracted investors to produce the complete version of the script. The feature-length film was financed for $3.3 million by Bold Films.

Key notes to take away from here are that Right of Way Films and Blumhouse Productions got into the mix RIGHT AWAY and helped Chazelle make the short. LOL. Sorry, but to me? That's simply NOT going to happen to most of us. When it does happen? It's GREAT! But because of your comment, should we all be looking to make a short to help us break in? You didn't sound so empathetic to the girl from Australia. Maybe you just like arguing both sides of the equation.

I'm all for ANYONE making a short film but at the same time? Most of the people I've known who make shorts, features, and write specs really do have a lot of HOPE for their first and beginning projects and while there is nothing wrong with that? I've also seen some of these people walk away from after having completed their projects completely disillusioned.

Why? Because they really don't know the reality of what they're doing or the reality of this business.

And I believe you're WRONG. Not all the best ideas have been DONE. I think a lot of good and great ideas have been done but there is a hell of a lot of room for more and they do in fact exist. You just gotta find'em.

But hey... To each his own but that is WHY I've always said the concept is at least as important as the script. USUALLY MORE IMPORTANT.

And I've seen quite a few revenge movies that you mention that are quite terrible and never made their money back. LOL. So yeah... I can easily disagree that the concept makes for an amazing movie. It's certainly NO GUARANTEE of a great movie and out of the approximately 30 plus producers I know? I don't think I could pitch them what you said in a way that's going to make them sit up and take notice. The ONLY way to make that an amazing movie since it's been done so many times before is to do it like it's never been done before. Or as a spec? Write it as it's never been written before.

So go make your shark short and good luck with it
 
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sfoster

Staff Member
Moderator
LOL. There are examples of shorts that get people into the business... I grant you that but it's still like winning the lottery. What YOU'RE telling me is very much what wannabe screenwriters tell me all the time when I tell them I don't think their spec can sell. They IMMEDIATELY point out the movie (usually the movie that their spec is derivative from) that is similar to their spec. While all that is fine and dandy? It doesn't change the fact that we're playing the lottery here.

This time however... Based on your usual comments? I've looked it up:

WHIPLASH

Please make note of this paragraph:

Right of Way Films and Blumhouse Productions helped Chazelle turn 15 pages of his original screenplay into a short film starring Johnny Simmons as Neiman and J. K. Simmons (no relation) as Fletcher. The 18-minute short film received acclaim after debuting at the 2013 Sundance Film Festival, winning the short film Jury Award for fiction, which attracted investors to produce the complete version of the script. The feature-length film was financed for $3.3 million by Bold Films.

Key notes to take away from here are that Right of Way Films and Blumhouse Productions got into the mix RIGHT AWAY and helped Chazelle make the short. LOL. Sorry, but to me? That's simply NOT going to happen to most of us. When it does happen? It's GREAT! But because of your comment, should we all be looking to make a short to help us break in? You didn't sound so empathetic to the girl from Australia. Maybe you just like arguing both sides of the equation.

I'm all for ANYONE making a short film but at the same time? Most of the people I've known who make shorts, features, and write specs really do have a lot of HOPE for their first and beginning projects and while there is nothing wrong with that? I've also seen some of these people walk away from after having completed their projects completely disillusioned.

Why? Because they really don't know the reality of what they're doing or the reality of this business.

And I believe you're WRONG. Not all the best ideas have been DONE. I think a lot of good and great ideas have been done but there is a hell of a lot of room for more and they do in fact exist. You just gotta find'em.

But hey... To each his own but that is WHY I've always said the concept is at least as important as the script. USUALLY MORE IMPORTANT.

And I've seen quite a few revenge movies that you mention that are quite terrible and never made their money back. LOL. So yeah... I can easily disagree that the concept makes for an amazing movie. It's certainly NO GUARANTEE of a great movie and out of the approximately 30 plus producers I know? I don't think I could pitch them what you said in a way that's going to make them sit up and take notice. The ONLY way to make that an amazing movie since it's been done so many times before is to do it like it's never been done before. Or as a spec? Write it as it's never been written before.

So go make your shark short and good luck with it

Shittttttttttt I looked the director up on IMDB and did a little research this time hahaha. thats interesting from wikipedia.
All I can say to that is touche lol. okay I'll just stop commenting on film history :censored:

Anyway I think you take one of the best ideas that has been done - and you write it as its never been written. in total agreement there.
make a few original ones too. get about 5 screenplays then try to get an agent. that is my personal path right now im aiming for to break into the industry. not through shorts. i think the shorts help improve my writing and dialogue though.

I gave my best advice that i possibly could to try to help Jesse from australia.
 
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The shorts DO and WILL improve your writing and dialogue... Absolutely. Like I said... I would NEVER and WILL NEVER discourage anyone from doing ANYTHING in this business. In fact? Most of the time? I just keep my mouth SHUT when they tell me their plans. Why? Because I don't want to burst their bubble.

However... If they come to me for some help? For a critique. For notes? Anything like that? I feel like I have an obligation to tell them what I really think. To be honest. On a forum like this? I also feel obligated to tell it from my perspective but make no mistake... It's ONLY MY PERSPECTIVE. I am fully aware that there are people out there way more talented than I who, with a little luck? Could do very well in this business.

There's always gonna be somebody who gets an idea and makes a movie or writes a screenplay that someone in the business is going to LIKE and become their CHAMPION just like Right of Way Films and Blumhouse Productions did for Chazelle. I've never personally had that. Everything I've done and or accomplished has just been from learning, writing, hard work -- rinsing and repeating. The only way I know HOW to DO IT. If somewhere along the way... Someone who can really make things happens reads something of mine and decides to champion that script? I will consider myself LUCKY.

Make no mistake... Luck can play a part too.

Your idea is solid. 5 original specs that, after reading them, do NOT seem derivative of other major films we've seen? Well executed? Is a good plan if you want to break in as a screenwriter.

I honestly wish you the best of luck with it too...
 
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