DVD industry in crisis as sales slump

If they could shut down the torrent sites that would help a lot. Amazing how they can't seem to get Google to remove these pirate websites from the search list. Why can't the governments stop these guys or at least do more to stop them. If the movie industry has not been able to stop the pirates I don't think the movie industry will do much better.
 
Last edited:
If they could shut down the torrent sites that would help a lot. Amazing how they can't seem to get Google to remove these pirate websites from the search list. Why can't the governments stop these guys or at least do more to stop them. If the movie industry has not been able to stop the pirates I don't think the movie industry will do much better.

For the same reason they don't sue the gun companies when someone gets shot... They are providing a service and people are using it illegally, even though that is the basic premise of a torrent site, technically the torrent site is not doing anything illegal.... all the users are.
 
For the same reason they don't sue the gun companies when someone gets shot... They are providing a service and people are using it illegally, even though that is the basic premise of a torrent site, technically the torrent site is not doing anything illegal.... all the users are.

I know you are right in why they are getting away with it. I just figure that will only last so long. Sooner or latter some judge will decide that this is a special case that needs a different set of rules. Just because someone may use the site legally is not enough justification to let this amount of piracy to not be stopped. I am sure that sooner or later they will get the boot. The problem is that even if the US does do something you have the rest of the World that could continue with the illegal activities. But at minimum these sites should be shut down if they can do it without the Supreme Court saying they can't. I am sure the Movie and Music industry have lobbists that are trying to get laws passed to stop piracy in a proactive way.

If internet speeds increase by ten fold or more in the future piracy may be an even larger problem. I can imagine a day when downloading a movie is as fast as downloading a mp3. Shutting the Torrents down today will help for a while but then a whole new problem will start when files can be transfered at super high speeds and Bit Torrent is not needed anymore.
 
Last edited:
My hypothesis is that the big corporate machines will use all their influence to get the government(s) to go along with new legislation that will intrude on privacy to make sure that illegal downloads are curbed.

As has been poured over in another thread a long while ago, when the old people in congress have a grasp on what downloads even are and how the Internet works are long gone, then these issues will get addressed and a lot more regulation will occur. Funny how big corporations hate regulation when it curbs their activities, but will want regulation and government intervention when it's hurting their bottom line... Not unlike the irony of people wanting to download music and movies illegally for free, but then want a job in the industry.
 
"Piracy might kill the big industry but it will not prevent people from making music, films or computer games."

It wll greatly decrease the number of high quality ones however. It's VERY rare for someone to make an excellent film with no budget. You might stumble across good actors, a good cinematographer, a good makeup artist, etc... etc... willing to work for next to nothing, but not very often. Even if you do find them they are only working for nothing or slave wages as a resume builder for paying gigs later. What if those paying gigs dry up? As they will if there is no hope of profit.

When I talk about the possible fall of the big industry, I'm not talking about the death of the whole filmmaking business. However I believe that movies with $237 million budget will eventually be a thing of the past.
I think in the future there'll be numerous "independent" studios producing films and not only six "big ones" dominating the market.
Nevertheless, filmmakers and musicians will have to find ways to bring their products to the people without losing money. For bands that's actually significantly easier because they can play shows and sell their records afterwards (apart from selling them in stores/online); maybe filmmakers could try to make going to the cinema as attractive for cineastes as going to shows is for the fans of a band (like live discussions, meet-the-director, whatever). I know this sounds kinda odd, but if you don't want the film-/music-pirates to ruin everything you will have to offer the people something they can't get online.
There'll always be ways to make a living at doing this, but I don't think there'll be many more multi-millionaire directors/actors/musicians.
 
When I talk about the possible fall of the big industry, I'm not talking about the death of the whole filmmaking business. However I believe that movies with $237 million budget will eventually be a thing of the past.

I fear that's the FUTURE.

Who pays to see movies in theaters, and pays to see the same movie more than once? Where is the big money? The fat market is teenagers, it's in explosions and uber-animation, and Megan Fox (BIG-name draws). And that costs BIG bucks. The middle-range of well-written, well-produced and well-directed, creative, fresh-idea films is dying out (already has died out?), and will leave consumers with two extremes when it comes to movie choices: a few outlandishly expensive blockbusters and a vast sea of shoe-string-budget indie productions forever consigned to meager DVD sales and begging for a few scraps from On-Demand providers.

I'm not very optimistic about the future.

-C
 
Okay, I am reading the comments here and nodding.

I am not rich, famous (or want to be). But here is my two cents (& it is worth about two cents).

In 1975 I went into the recording studio and cut an LP called One St. Stephen (feel free to google or yahoo it). I broke even with LP sales on the costs of the LP and studio time. LP was bootlegged in Europe/England by several thieving companies -- they made money; I did not. But I learned a lot & had fun making this LP. I moved on to other experiences shortly there after. Now, anyone, any where can record a quality CD for peanuts if they have the desire and the talent. Such is technology. YOU can make it big if you are LUCKY...

In 1980's I was a founder and elected as director of a professional realist artist's group; associated with many top names in contemporary fine art of the 1980's & 90's, I won awards and had quality shows at some pretty impressive galleries, plus national exhibitions. This is not mentioned for bragging, but for what I learned from so many fantastic artists/creative people that I meet in the climbing up of that ladder -- out there in the thick of it. Plus the years of enjoyment; creating magic realist paintings/drawings (stuff from my head) until I burned out on the 'alone' time it takes to make 'realist' fine art. Today there are many more creative artists harking their talents and that 'marketing' is a mad house. Technology enables new markets and schemes for the hustlers... and awards for the really great and very LUCKY.

In the late 1990's I turned to film-making. I stumbled often and hard, made many new friends, (and a few enemies due to ego(s) & BS -- such a drain), had fun learning the many aspects of quality story telling from script to screen. For me, movie-making is the ultimate creative art -- the more I learn; the more I realize the less I know (about film-making, storytelling and life in general). No boredom there and that love of working with actors and other creative types (from scriptwriting to the final edit -- trying to do the best I can; for the sake of making something from nothing). BUT. With technology being what it is, there is always someone a head of you, unless you are very, very LUCKY (and in most cases, being good at film-making can help).

I am not rich. I am not famous. I have never been lucky (when it came to wealth). But I have had a very enjoyable life making stuff that did not exist before my feet were on the Earth (LOL). I am 60 but can pass for 35 years of age; being active (in mind and body) is the secret, (positive vibes and good genes)...

SO in conclusion, my two cent point is this: if your only interest is making money in a creative field like music, fine art or film making/screenwriting, etc., YOU better be lucky, have your foot in someone's door (or up their ass) or be very rich to begin with (or have a rich relative) cause there are NO free rides. You have to pay your dues. AND even when you pay your dues, be prepared to end up with only the experience(s) you have gained. Cause we all pay some sort of tax and we all die in the end. It is not he (or she) who has the most toys that wins, it is he (or she) that lives the longest and has the most (positive/pleasurable) experiences while living...

Make something for the pleasure of making something. If you are good. If you are lucky. Heh. Good for you. If you are not... Okay, I am reading the comments here and nodding.
 
I fear that's the FUTURE.

Who pays to see movies in theaters, and pays to see the same movie more than once? Where is the big money? The fat market is teenagers, it's in explosions and uber-animation, and Megan Fox (BIG-name draws). And that costs BIG bucks. The middle-range of well-written, well-produced and well-directed, creative, fresh-idea films is dying out (already has died out?), and will leave consumers with two extremes when it comes to movie choices: a few outlandishly expensive blockbusters and a vast sea of shoe-string-budget indie productions forever consigned to meager DVD sales and begging for a few scraps from On-Demand providers.

I'm not very optimistic about the future.

-C

With all due respect, I'm afraid I don't share the same doom-and-gloom outlook. Conversely, I think we have reason to be optimistic.

First, let me state that I know a lot of people are being hurt by the slump in DVD sales, and for them, the future does not look so bright. I don't think that means there will be a dearth of quality cinema, however.

The idea of Hollywood catering to teens first is nothing new -- they've been doing it ever since "Star Wars". Furthermore, the advent of the multiplex has made it possible for Hollywood to turn a solid profit on a movie, not by making a quality product, but by getting big-name stars and blanketing us with advertising. But it's not like this just happened last week. It's been this way for three decades, and last time I checked, quality movies are still being made (and seen in theaters). Sure, we have to wade through all the mindless crap, but good cinema is still out there.

The reason I think we should feel optimistic is because of the ever-shrinking digital divide.

20 years ago, a movie like "District 9" would've never happened. First of all, the original short couldn't have been made, so Blomkamp would've never had the opportunity to get the attention of Peter Jackson. And secondly, even if somehow Blomkamp were able to get Jackson't attention, they wouldn't have been able to produce the feature on as such a (comparitively) small budget as they did.

But if you really wanna talk shoestring budget, let's look at the prospect of a first-time filmmaker trying to break into the industry, with no real budget. In the days of film, you've got your occasional go-getter like Kevin Smith and Robert Rodriquez, who are able to scrape every penny together to purchase just enough film stock to make their dream a reality. But that is one major hurdle to clear -- being able to afford film stock. Well now that hurdle has been permanently removed. Without the huge burden of having to purchase film stock, I predict the coming decades will see a major influx of new and talented storytellers.

The big guys, making movies for teens, will continue to dominate the market, as they have for a long time now. But that doesn't mean the little guy will vanish. Besides, not all blockbusters are crap. To name a few, from this year, I personally think "The Social Network", "Scott Pilgrim vs. the World", "Shutter Island", "Inception", "Toy Story 3", and "The Town" are all pretty darned good.
 
Poor hollywood .. only 9 billion in sales last year

What-Is-Hollywood-Hiding-4.png
 
CF, thanks for the reply.

Perhaps I overstated the case for pessimism. Nevertheless, I'd continue to argue that most signs point in the direction of squeezing out the indie filmmaker who hopes to make a living producing good-quality movies.

Yes, Blomkamp made the big-time. But if you intend to recommend his career-path a a template for success, catching the eye of a Jackson or his equivalent, that's all fine and good, but hardly something even the most talented indie people can count on.

Yes, you can make a movie cheaper than ever before. And there is a proliferation, explosion almost I'd say, of "shoe-string budget" films available. But every sign points toward a DEGENERATION of opportunities for a professional career for those individuals, a deep regression in the potential to make enough money to fund your NEXT feature, and still put food on your family's table. Everybody with a DSLR is now a potential Fellini or Spielberg, and nobody is.

And do you really think "Inception," "Toy Story 3," "Shutter Island," etc. are examples of little guys telling good stories? BIG NAMES. BIG SPECIAL EFFECTS. BIG ANIMATION BUDGETS. Shooting and marketing ANY of those admittedly "well-told" stories without the A-List actors, without the big-budget special effects, without the animation quality, none of which would be available to you or me or most folks on this forum, would be impossible, imo.

Talent will USUALLY (not always) win out in the end, but the apparent opening up of horizons for indie filmmakers thanks to the digital era is more chimera than fact, in my opinion. The good news is that if you don't spend any money making your movie, you're not out much when it doesn't fly.

Cheers!

-Charles
 
Cracker Funk,

Doom and gloom? Only if you want it to be. Seems everyone wants an excuse for failure... or not making something they say they want to make, (moi? I am using 12 year old, four, DVcam cameras and shooting what I can).

Keep in mind... Kevin Smith was lucky, he had $28,000.00 and hit Sundance at the right time... 1994.
Robert Rodriguez was lucky, with $7,000.00 and the time was 1993. They both busted their butts with marketing... and played the system (of 1993/94).

Were they talented? Absolutely. Believed and fought to get their art seen? Absolutely. But talent and fighting to get your art seen only goes so far these days. Look at the numbers of 'indie' film makers around us. Got to be LUCKY. AND. At the right place and at the right time.

Because.

There is a lot of talent out there. AND. Technology is a double edged sword. YES. New tech toys and equipment CAN make story telling easier, for all who weld the equipment... (and can afford the equipment) add the ($$$$) need for marketing, name talent, (millions of reasons for possible failure in progress)...

Because.

Looking down the road at Independence Day 2 and 3, the next batch of big budgeted super hero flicks from Thor to the Avengers to the next batch of X-Man, new two-out-every-week action blockbusters with NAME talent... plus those mind bending John Carter of Mars, Avatars 2, etc. on the can't-wait-to-see films... Hells bells, I can't wait to see those films... but it won't stop me from trying to make my own stories a reality on the screen, (small or large). Break even, loose cash or make one dollar profit. Still LOL.

Because.

It is what I do (with opened eyes). Call me cursed. An idiot or a stupid old fool. To be in film for big dollars or fame, hey, your better off being a celebrity plumber (really laughing out loud now) like JOE THE PLUMBER.

Be real. Keep your dreams, but be realistic. Films (even RED cameras) cost big money (beyond my meager pocket/poker change). Hey, by-the-way, any rich person out there want to invest in my next feature? Got 28 scripts ready for reading... LOL, but they are very good scripts (!!!!) and I can do them on the cheep too...

Oh well, now I am up to (my) four cents...
 
CF, thanks for the reply.

Perhaps I overstated the case for pessimism. Nevertheless, I'd continue to argue that most signs point in the direction of squeezing out the indie filmmaker who hopes to make a living producing good-quality movies.

Yes, Blomkamp made the big-time. But if you intend to recommend his career-path a a template for success, catching the eye of a Jackson or his equivalent, that's all fine and good, but hardly something even the most talented indie people can count on.

Yes, you can make a movie cheaper than ever before. And there is a proliferation, explosion almost I'd say, of "shoe-string budget" films available. But every sign points toward a DEGENERATION of opportunities for a professional career for those individuals, a deep regression in the potential to make enough money to fund your NEXT feature, and still put food on your family's table. Everybody with a DSLR is now a potential Fellini or Spielberg, and nobody is.

And do you really think "Inception," "Toy Story 3," "Shutter Island," etc. are examples of little guys telling good stories? BIG NAMES. BIG SPECIAL EFFECTS. BIG ANIMATION BUDGETS. Shooting and marketing ANY of those admittedly "well-told" stories without the A-List actors, without the big-budget special effects, without the animation quality, none of which would be available to you or me or most folks on this forum, would be impossible, imo.

Talent will USUALLY (not always) win out in the end, but the apparent opening up of horizons for indie filmmakers thanks to the digital era is more chimera than fact, in my opinion. The good news is that if you don't spend any money making your movie, you're not out much when it doesn't fly.

Cheers!

-Charles

No, every movie I cited was intended as an example of quality cinema being made by the commercial Hollywood system. Every so often, studio productions with big budgets and big names produce -*gasp*- quality results.

The vast majority of indie productions lose money. It's been that way for quite some time, now. I don't see how the situation has become worse.

The only part of this industry that I think might die off could be the direct-to-DVD market. For some people, this is a livelihood. But I won't be losing any sleep over it. Sorry, but the average direct-to-DVD movie is crap, pure crap.

In my experience, the shoestring budget movies that have been worth watching are those that have made their way through various festivals, caught someone's attention, and gained theatrical distribution. I see no reason to believe those types of films would somehow disappear. Typically, I think those kinds of movies are made by people with a strong desire to break into the industry, and any potential profit is an afterthought.

The direct-to-DVD model of business is profit first, and perhaps that's why it's all crap. So, yeah, I can see how a particular segment of this industry might suffer a huge blow, but I don't equate that with a loss in quality cinema being made on shoestring budgets.

Also, I'm not recommending Blomkamp's method for breaking in to the industry as the best model. It worked for him, and it might work for anyone else who is really talented with CGI, but it won't work for most people. I only pointed it out as one example of how a visionary storyteller can get their movie made and seen, in a way that wasn't possible 20 years ago.

The model of success I think more people should imitate is one that a lot of Indietalkers seem to have grown tired of hearing me talk about, so I didn't mention it at first. I like the Duplass brothers' model for success. Just grab a damn camera, and make a damn movie. Nevermind that you don't have a crew. Nevermind that you don't have a budget. Nevermind that you can't light your set the way the pros do. Just tell a good story. It worked for them, and I think it can work for other people, too.

don, Kevin Smith and Robert Rodriquez were not lucky. Everything that happened to them was because they made it so.
 
CF,

I apologize for misunderstanding your point about your list of successful movies.

I agree with your advice.

I agree it's still possible to succeed even in your position, or mine, or anyone else's here.

I don't mean to suggest everyone give up trying. If ever there was a Don Quixote spirit worthy of admiration, it's here on this board and other similar indie gathering places.

My point is simply that the tunnel to success for us is narrowing, and I don't currently see any relief. And anyone who doesn't see that is at a handicap if they're trying to compete. It means harder work, and it means being even more creative with what resources we have.

-C
 
CrackerFunk wrote "don, Kevin Smith and Robert Rodriquez were not lucky. Everything that happened to them was because they made it so."

CrackerFunk, every person to ever get a greenlight on a project will admit to being lucky (on getting that greenlight) no matter who they are or what they did to get that greenlight. I did not imply that Kevin Smith and Robert Rodriquez didn't work for recognition or deserve it. Kevin Smith and Robert Rodriquez will admit that luck was a part of their road to their early success(es). You should read what Robert Rodriguez wrote about getting his VHS copy of the movie, El Mariachi into the right hands. To deny luck as a factor in low budget film making success stories is to deny reality. Kevin Smith has mentioned luck and timing many times when discussing his successes (and failures).

Keep in mind that I also wrote (in the same above comment about Kevin Smith and Robert Rodriquez) previously "Were they talented? Absolutely. Believed and fought to get their art seen? Absolutely. But talent and fighting to get your art seen only goes so far these days. Look at the numbers of 'indie' film makers around us. Got to be LUCKY. AND. At the right place and at the right time."

You can't have any kind of success without a product in hand (whether it be a screenplay or finished movie on DVD-R or on some viewing format -- in Robert Rodriquez's case in 1993, on VHS). So make something. Something as good as you can. And maybe, if it is good enough in the eyes of a viewer with clout, you will get lucky and get recognized. But without a certain amount of luck. Just won't happen. No matter how hard you wish upon a star.

But yes, you have to have a 'product' in hand.
 
don, Kevin Smith and Robert Rodriquez were not lucky. Everything that happened to them was because they made it so.

I agree that both of these guys are talented, but if you think it was just that that made them famous, then you are naive as to the ways of the world.

Was it Kevin Smith's talent that brought that guy from Sundance to his screening at the IFFM in New York who personally got the film into the hands of Amy Taubin at the Village Voice and into the Sundance Film Festival? No, it was luck. Even Kevin says so in his books and DVD's.

If you've ever read RR's book REBEL WITHOUT A CREW, then you'd know that it was the 2 agents at ICM that created the demand for his film EL MARIACHI with the studios because RR had already sold the home video rights to the Spanish home video market and had to get out of that contract to sign with Columbia. The agency felt they could sell the idea of a "$7,000 film" to the public and they did.

There are a lot of talented filmmakers who never make it, even with great films. Luck and fate do a play a role in everyone's career.


Again, I don't think the end of the Hollywood system is nigh. It's just about to change and shift, probably in the most radical way in 100 years, but I cannot forsee what it is going to become. It will be good for some new people and bad for some of the old guard. And vice versa. It's just change, for the better or worse, depending on where you are. A little luck and fate determines which is which for each person regardless of talent.
 
"Naive" is just about the last word anyone would use to describe me. I don't think it's such a great idea to assume that just because someone disagrees with your outlook on life that they're naive.

You ever hear someone talking about how long it toook them to find their keys, after losing them? You know how someone will often say, "Wouldn't ya know it -- they were in the last place I looked!"

I sure hope so. If you continue to look, after finding them, you're rather stupid. People who say this are implying that luck was not on their side. If luck were on their side, they would've found them in the first place they looked, not the last. But of course, luck has nothing to do with it.

Just because Kevin Smith says he got lucky, that doesn't make his perception reality. Am I supposed to believe that if that Sundance guy hadn't shown up on that fateful day, Kevin Smith wasn't going to do anything else to get his movie seen? That's it. That's all he's doing. Just that screening. No more promotion. Not gonna send it to any more festivals.

It's as if you're saying, "Wouldn't ya know it -- a Sundance guy saw the very last screening of the movie". But that's false logic. The screenings and promotion would have continued.

I believe Sarah Connor said it best: There's no fate, but what we make.
 
I don't think sonny was saying you were naive for disagreeing with him, just that to say their success was ONLY due to their talent would be naive.

I don't think this is the time or place to get into a philosophical discussion on what luck is, but I get the impression everyone else thinks that talent will only get you so far. Call it luck, karma, a big break, a happy coincidence… there are supremely talented people who never get that chance to prove themselves to the people who matter.

Of course, none of it would ever have happened at all without that raw talent, passion and dedication, and the making of the film itself is more about that than luck - the external forces and actors are not so much at play here. Nobody's saying they weren't supremely talented, but it's a much more logical conclusion that they didn't have some God-like level of control over the situation.
 
I totally agree with CF here. People with drive will accomplish something regardless the circumstances. Some may be "lucky" and hit a hole in one on the first swing, but a driven person will keep swinging away until it's in, even if it's 80 over par. Too many people fail their first attempt and give up. Some give up after the fifth (etc) saying "I guess it wasn't for me", when try number 6 would have landed something huge. When someone is driven to accomplish something, it will happen regardless of time and budget. History is full of people like this. It sounds a little cheesy because I'm sure you've heard it too many times, bit how many potential filaments did Edison try before finding tungsten, the one that worked? The saying is a thousand.

Now, when it comes to movies, you can have a driven person who is also unaware that his film is a load of crap. Lot's go around thinking their project is the next Star Wars and will change the industry forever, when in reality it's more like a Plan 9. It takes a GREAT movie and a driven person to make it happen. Can't hide behind luck, to quote another character, Harvey Dent said he "Made his own luck."

Of course, he also was burned horribly and went insane :)
 
Back
Top