Does anyone think festivals are a racket?

[Nate North]

After producing my first independent feature film, I heard a lot, and recieved a lot of mail about film festivals. At first I thought my work had been noticed and someone was offering me a free plane ticket out of respoect for my 8 months of hard work and 40k spent on the film.

But then as I read on, it turned out that I was supposed to pay them, just to screen my film, which might or might not be included, Then I would pay all my own expenses and stay at an overpriced hotel the festival promoters have a kickback deal with. If I was one of the lucky ones, the festival promoters would then show my movie to large crowds of paying customers, make several thousand dollars just off the one showing, then they won't even return your screening deposit.

I came to find all film festivals are like this, with the exception of ones you have to be invited to. I'm also very skeptical about all the Hollywood talent agents that are supposed to be in the audience. How much bigger is American Idol than any one film competition, and yet not even one real celebrity has emerged in however many terrible years that it has been on.

Maybe I'm just ranting here, does anyone have any thoughts or opinions on whether festivals are exploiting indie filmmakers?

 

[Cracker Funk]

Did you really just say that not one celebrity has emerged as a result of American Idol? Forget the winners, the runners-up have done quite well.

So, for a small-time filmmaker, if festivals aren't the way to get people to notice your movie, what's the alternative?

 

[Uranium City]

It depends on what your goals for having a film play at festival are.

Some folks submit to festivals because they enjoy having their film play as part of a larger event where a community comes together to celebrate new films. You can talk with others about your film afterwards, you can talk with other filmmakers about their films, etc.

Others submit to festivals with the hopes of it leading to better things for their film.

Many submit for a combination of these reasons and others.

 

[directorik]

The vast majority of film festivals are run by film enthusiasts who
really love movies and want to provide a showcase for movies that
cannot find an audience. Since it costs money to rent space, print
programs and fliers, buy space in newspapers and hire people like
projectionists and ticket takers they need to charge an entry fee.

The vast majority of film festivals do not attract agents, producers
or distributors.

The vast majority of film festivals do not get a kickback from the
hotels - they get advertising money or "in kind" services.

The vast majority of film festivals do not attract large audiences.

The big ten are nearly impossible to get into. They get the vast
majority of submissions and choose the smallest number of submitted
movies. Most of their programs consist of invited movies.

Then there are the scams. And they are out there. Those that solicit
filmmakers to submit and those that are "pay to play".

 

[Cracker Funk]

Everything Uranium mentioned are exactly the reasons why I, personally, am submitting to festivals. It's a combination of the hope that someone with influence (or $) will take notice, combined with the fact that I expect to just plain have fun.

directorik mentioned the fact that most festivals do not attract agents, etc., and I've been aware of this for a while. Yet, as I asked before, what's the alternative for a small-time filmmaker? It may be a one-in-million chance that anything actually happens, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

Do you know how many people post crappy videos of themselves singing on Youtube? LOTS. What are the odds that any of them will ever have a singing career? Impossible, right? Try telling that to Justin Bieber.

 

[Cracker Funk]

While we're on the subject. Here's an interesting article a FB friend of mine just linked. Surely, none of these festivals attract agents, or whatever, but I'll bet they're a lot of fun to attend.

http://livability.com/top-10/top-10-small-film-festivals

 

[Alcove Audio]

The rock 'n' roll band culture has been doing free gigs and pay-to-play for decades. You are attempting to build a following. To build that following you have to get your product in front of an audience. So festivals are just one aspect of marketing your film. You hope that your project stands out from the others. Since there are so many festivals having an award doesn't mean what it used to 20 years ago, but an award or even an "Official Selection" attached to your project may be a factor when someone is trying to decide if they want to buy/rent/stream your film. And if they like it they may recommend it to friends. And who knows, they may look for more of your projects. And when many of your projects develop a following perhaps a producer will offer you serious funds. That's the dream, anyway; and, just like with bands, one in ten thousand will get the shot, and one out of a hundred of those may actually have some real success.

 

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

Most of the reasons have been mentioned above.

The opportunity to be there while an audience watches your movie. How do they react, did what you were going for work?

Networking opportunities. At the last festival I was in I met a very good LA editor who loved my movie, and said "I would love to cut one of your films, for free if I have to, call me anytime".

The opportunity to see many other films made on the same "level" as yours. How does yours stack up, what do you need to do better, what are you doing well.

The credibility it gives you. The title of my film followed by a long list of "Official Selection of..." lends a certain gravitas to me, and to my film. I'm not Joe Shmuck making movies in my backyard with a handicam for youtube. I made a film judged as good enough to be included in the program of one or more festivals. Awards are even bettter. When I now approach crew, talent, investors, etc... I can with a straight face say "I'm an award winning filmmaker".

You never know WHO is in the audience. It may not be Harvey Weinstein, but it might be the guy who owns a string of 27 car lots looking to invest in the movie business.

 

[indietalk]

But then as I read on, it turned out that I was supposed to pay them, just to screen my film, which might or might not be included, Then I would pay all my own expenses and stay at an overpriced hotel the festival promoters have a kickback deal with. If I was one of the lucky ones, the festival promoters would then show my movie to large crowds of paying customers, make several thousand dollars just off the one showing, then they won't even return your screening deposit.

First of all, how much are we talking here? The $40 entry fee, or are you talking hundreds, or thousands, to be considered? There is a notorious festival that can ask for $400-thousands that should be avoided.

 

[Flicker Pictures]

Ditto on what others have posted...

Festival fees can certainly add up, and it really helps to submit to the ones that are geared toward your particular film/genre, but they are still mostly a great way to get your work seen in front of new faces and other filmmakers.

Always a good plan to have a budget put aside for those fees!

 

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

Their ARE Scam festivals out there to be sure.

The one getting ripped this Year is New Mexico IFF. The festival director got 500 submissions. He programmed 7 films, one of which was his, and two of which were made by a friend of his. He is getting shredded by Film Threat and on the WAB message boards. You can only pull that shit once as a general rule. The word gets out.

You just have to know the reputation of the festivals you submit to, and realize first year festivals always have a potential to be a scam.

 

[sonnyboo]

There s always the marketability of a getting into ANY film festival, big or small. Putting those laurel leaves on a postcard or when you eventually do want to talk to a distributor will help.

Film festivals represent an unbiased, 3rd party uninvolved in the making of the film who select your movie to play in front of a paying audience. That's a validation to the work, and a leg up on the movies who weren't picked.

The more film festivals a movie plays at, the more evidence you have that people liked the movie and were willing to pay to see it.

 

[spinner]

After producing my first independent feature film, I heard a lot, and recieved a lot of mail about film festivals. At first I thought my work had been noticed and someone was offering me a free plane ticket out of respoect for my 8 months of hard work and 40k spent on the film.

First, congratulations on the attention your film has received. Mores to the point, congratulations on your first film being good enough to be recognized at all. That doesn't always happen regardless of how much you spend to produce it.

But then as I read on, it turned out that I was supposed to pay them, just to screen my film, which might or might not be included,

What do you mean by pay them to screen your film? There are, more often than not, entry fees, so I am assuming that you don't mean those. I only know of a couple of festivals that don't have entry fees.

Then I would pay all my own expenses and stay at an overpriced hotel the festival promoters have a kickback deal with.

I don't know about the hotel thing, but you aren't saying you expect the festivals to pay for your accommodations when you are accepted into a festival, are you? I don't know of any festivals that do that.

I came to find all film festivals are like this, with the exception of ones you have to be invited to. I'm also very skeptical about all the Hollywood talent agents that are supposed to be in the audience.

Wow. One of these days, someone needs to explain to me some comparisons between indie films and California indie films. Out here in not-California-land, we NEVER expect there to be agents in the audience.

How much bigger is American Idol than any one film competition, and yet not even one real celebrity has emerged in however many terrible years that it has been on.

Didn't Jennifer Hudson win an Oscar? By the way, not an American Idol fan....

Maybe I'm just ranting here, does anyone have any thoughts or opinions on whether festivals are exploiting indie filmmakers?

No, I think maybe -- don't get mad now -- maybe your expectations are too high because of the luck that you've had with your film in terms of the attention you've gotten. I think you need to keep sending your film out because the more positive attention, possibly the easier it will be to fund and promote your next film. Film festivals, to my understanding, are the best way to get your film seen or noticed. Everything else is extra/lucky.

Being invited to a festival is great, I don't know of anyone who has been, but like directorik said, there are scams. You have to be careful. You can't just send off big sums of money to maybe have your film screened, like you were told. If a festival is going to screen you, won't they just tell you that you are an official selection? Doesn't that mean you will be screened? I've never heard of anyone having to pay to have a film screened after it has been selected for a festival.

For those of you who live in California, are film festival set ups/operations different than other places? Are they different in L.A./Hollywood?


-- spinner

 

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

"I don't know about the hotel thing, but you aren't saying you expect the festivals to pay for your accommodations when you are accepted into a festival, are you? I don't know of any festivals that do that."

I've had festivals cover my hotel room. The Hotel was a Sponsor, and they give the festivals free rooms for the filmmakers in exchange for the publicity, and the traffic they get from the regular festival goers.

I've had both kinds of invites.
Invited to submit for consideration Where there is no guarantee you will get in, but the entry fee is waived, and invited to screen, where they wave the fee, and tell you up front you will be screened.

 

[spinner]

"I don't know about the hotel thing, but you aren't saying you expect the festivals to pay for your accommodations when you are accepted into a festival, are you? I don't know of any festivals that do that."

I've had festivals cover my hotel room. The Hotel was a Sponsor, and they give the festivals free rooms for the filmmakers in exchange for the publicity, and the traffic they get from the regular festival goers.

I've had both kinds of invites.
Invited to submit for consideration Where there is no guarantee you will get in, but the entry fee is waived, and invited to screen, where they wave the fee, and tell you up front you will be screened.

That's cool. Maybe I should send out more submissions


-- spinner

 

[directorik]

It may be a one-in-million chance that anything actually happens, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

That’s why most of us do what we do.

We know it’s a one in a million chance. But what other choice to
we have? Do we NOT enter a festival because we might be one of the
999,999 who don’t get the deal? Or because we might be among the
4,782 films that did not get accepted into Sundance?

The vast majority of film festivals do not propel the filmmaker to
the big time - even the winners. The vast majority of filmmakers
do not make movies that are good enough to propel them to the big
time.

So do your research. Good advice for everything, isn’t it? If your
ONLY goal when entering a film festival is to get airfare, lodging
and expenses then only submit the right film to the right
festival. If your ONLY goal is to have your film screened to an
audience of agents and distributors then submit the right film to
the right festival.

None of my movies have ever screened at any of the BigTen. I have
sat in a theater of 10 people as my movie screened. I have flown
across the country to attened a screening of my movie to 350
people and less than 20. I’ve had “sales agents” relentless pursue
me to pay them to represent my movie after they saw it and LOVED
it. I’ve had distributers offer me a check on the spot for
distribution rights. I’ve done Q&A’s with 20 people and with 200.

I have spent a LOT of money in submission fees and travel/lodging
and I have learned a lot about the festival racket. As long as a
filmmaker goes into it with knowlege and information entering can
be really fun.

How much bigger is American Idol than any one film competition, and yet not even one real celebrity has emerged in however many terrible years that it has been on.

It’s clear you hate American Idol. I’m completely neutral about it.

However, several of the American Idol winners and runners up have
made huge sales and won many awards. “real celebrity” is so
subjective I can’t begin to comment on how you define it. But
several have won multiple Grammy’s, one has won an Oscar and
Golden Globe, a few have had success on Broadway. I suspect the
millions of Carrie Underwood fans (11,500,000 albums sold, 5
Grammy’s) would disagree with you that she is not a “real
celebrity”

 

[Nate North]

Thanks

A lot of good points here. From what you guys are saying my expectations are a bit high. Several sites I visited mentioned possible talent scouts on the same page they were collecting suspiciously large fees. Nothing too crazy, just a few hundred bucks for a panel of "Industry Insiders" to watch my film and provide notes. Then they can reject the film for any reason with no refund. I just mentally pictured some guy sitting in a hotel room with a wastebasket full of unopened DVD's and a pile of hundred dollar bills on a table. From one of the comments it sounds like something very similar to my vision has indeed happened.

Gonzo made some excellent points about the value of festivals. I guess taken at face value they can be a good thing. I was mainly bothered by the way that so many festivals market themselves as a way to get your film out. I don't really thing too many people are getting their film into distribution via this method, so I think in some cases it's false advertising.

Another angle on this is that if you produced something truly remarkable, and 2k people see it, there's probably a better chance than any of us imagine that someone who could greenlight a picture would hear about it. If you're a beginning filmmaker it seems these festivals offer false hope, but for people at the top of their game, I'm sure it's worthwhile expense to push a new indie release. I'll be there next year or two I think.

 

[Nate North]

@directorik

That’s why most of us do what we do.


The vast majority of film festivals do not propel the filmmaker to
the big time - even the winners. The vast majority of filmmakers
do not make movies that are good enough to propel them to the big
time.

I think this is the crux of the issue with the entirety of film. It is so hard to make a truly good movie that almost none of us has ever done it. I don't think I have yet. I have seen hundreds of complete failures, and only a few successes. And most of what I call indie successes are projects that had millions in initial funding. At the >$100,000 range failure is at 99.9% across the board except for documentaires, and horror. Documentaries aren't driven by high production values (well mine is but that's a different story) and horror films are just playing power chords for a drunk 20 year old audience. (which I guess makes Mick Garris Angus Young in this metaphor)

I'd say the only real hope anyone has of breaking into the industry via festival or otherwise is to demonstrate a really unusual talent for the artform. Up to the present it's been very difficult for even someone truly gifted to get a vision across before funding. Even as an independent director myself, I can glance at a movie and know if I'll watch it in 10 seconds. Because of the camera. I'm so used to seeing through a CineAlta or similar for every tv show and movie that anything feels wrong and cheap. Like trying to listen to a cassette tape, when you've had a million cd's laying around for 20 years.

At this point I don't see the value in making another film unless I can come up with around 100k just for the camera rig.

I think I should probably go find the equipment section of the forum and post there, maybe someone will have a used cinealta 950.

Ps. I do seem to remember Carrie Underwood singing some song that didn't make me physically ill. That's the highest mark a country singer can recieve!

 

[Owen]

At this point I don't see the value in making another film unless I can come up with around 100k just for the camera rig.

I agree with using quality gear but not making another film because you can't use a 100k rig seems a bit silly. Why not hire a 100k rig? Or buy a red rig for 50k? Or a 30k dslr rig? These can produce amazing quality in the right hands.

Owen

 

[hepabst]

Being an artist is not easy. We are compelled to do things that don't make sense. Making a film on a zero budget surely doesn't make sense but we do it because we are artists.

Artists and business usually don't mix very well.

My greatest desire as a filmmaker is to have the "Common Man" experience my work. So I submit to festivals. I've only been screened once.