Deferred compensation contract
- Thread starter chlsy8
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I don't sign deferred pay contracts; they NEVER pay anything. First, it's a pig-in-a-poke; the concept sounds great and everything else looks good no paper, but there's absolutely no guarantee that it will be a quality product. Most of the projects don't have a chance at distribution - even the good ones. The ones that do get distribution never pay because of creative accounting; we've all heard the stories about films like "Forrest Gump" that have yet to make a profit - yeah, right....
I have a very simple policy - you pay, I play.
I have a very simple policy - you pay, I play.
I'm saying, based upon my experience, that I have never once gotten a penny out of a deferred contract, that I have never gotten the promised DVD copies of the project which were promised in the contract, and (with one exception) there has never even been a follow up phone call or email to even say thank you for all of the free work I put into the project, be it a short or a feature, once it left my studio, nor has any subsequent work or even a decent referral been brought to me by any of those people.
One project made it to distribution negotiations, and the first stipulation by the prospective distributor was that all previous other contracts became null and void, which obviously negates myself or anyone else involved receiving any compensation unless the director paid us out of his own pocket from his portion of the distribution proceeds.
I'm sorry if that twists your panties into a knot, but that has been my experience with "deferred" contracts.
If you want my experience, talents, expertise and access to my studio and all of its related equipment (which cost me tens upon tens of thousands of dollars - how much do you have invested in your career?) you have to pay me for it, I'm worth every damned penny and a hell of lot more.
One project made it to distribution negotiations, and the first stipulation by the prospective distributor was that all previous other contracts became null and void, which obviously negates myself or anyone else involved receiving any compensation unless the director paid us out of his own pocket from his portion of the distribution proceeds.
I'm sorry if that twists your panties into a knot, but that has been my experience with "deferred" contracts.
If you want my experience, talents, expertise and access to my studio and all of its related equipment (which cost me tens upon tens of thousands of dollars - how much do you have invested in your career?) you have to pay me for it, I'm worth every damned penny and a hell of lot more.
You only have 100 points so you need to decide how many
people are going to get points and then divide them up. There
is no "standard" that anyone can give you. This is your personal
decision.
If you have 20 people you can give them each 5. You can divide
50 points among 5 people and then 50 among the other 15.
That is absolutely NOT what Alcove is saying. No need to jump
directly into a defensive posture. The harsh truth is deferred
deals never pay off - the only people who do not know that are
complete novices and producers who deeply and truly hope their
movie will be the exception. Everyone who has some experience
knows 100% deferred pay means they will never see a dime.
That's does not mean all these low budget films should never be
made. It means you should seriously consider not offering a 100%
deferred pay contract. Ask people to donate their time if you
cannot afford to pay. Sure, you will run across a lot of professionals
who do not work for free - but you will also find many dedicated
people with skill and experience who will gladly donate their time
and talent for the right project.
As a crew member I respect a producer who asks me to donate
my time much more than one who tries to get me into this
carrot-on-a-stick situation. Perhaps other appreciate the honesty,
too.
Now here's the good news; when your movie makes money you
send each person a nice check. they worked with you because they
believed in you and your project and you treated them well and with
all professional respect during the shoot. You fed them well, you
didn't over work them and you didn't play the false hope game with
them. Then you made a great sale, made some good money and
you send them an unexpected check.
There is a producer that I work with on a fairly regular basis. Yes, solid paid work, but she will also call for the occasional freebee. And I will do that freebee because I know that I will be working on top-notch material with some really terrific people.
Haha!
I concur, I don't put any stock in deferred work. It throws up a flag for a lot of people because, like others have said, the people offering are novices, swindlers, or a bit naive. The people that ask you to work for free usually treat you a little better and are more grateful in the long run than the guys offering deferred... they usually treat you like you've already been paid, or even overpaid.
No harm working for free, I do it plenty and so do a lot of other great people I work with. It's all about the approach and the mentality of the people.
deferred payment is the biggest scam in the industry.
i know of no other business where it is used, except sales (and at least there
is a chance of making money in sales).
directorik's answer covers it perfectly.
i am a professional and expected to be treated like one and anyone offering me
deferred payment option is disrespecting me and i let them know that in
no uncertain terms (usually involving abusive language).
i am happy to be asked to work for free (which i may or may not do)
because then everyone knows where they stand.
cheers
i know of no other business where it is used, except sales (and at least there
is a chance of making money in sales).
directorik's answer covers it perfectly.
i am a professional and expected to be treated like one and anyone offering me
deferred payment option is disrespecting me and i let them know that in
no uncertain terms (usually involving abusive language).
i am happy to be asked to work for free (which i may or may not do)
because then everyone knows where they stand.
cheers
Thanks for all the inputs guys
I post this from my genuine thoughts that this might give the contributors some security since I truly think this movie is going to make money - while in the meantime I don't have the money to pay - the budget will go to equipment rental, food, transportation, etc.
Since deferred compensation is so disgusted by everybody, (which I had no clue) I might just ask people to work for free.
I post this from my genuine thoughts that this might give the contributors some security since I truly think this movie is going to make money - while in the meantime I don't have the money to pay - the budget will go to equipment rental, food, transportation, etc.
Since deferred compensation is so disgusted by everybody, (which I had no clue) I might just ask people to work for free.
PAYMENT DEFERRED
Distressing to hear that there is little chance of being paid. I am really really new to all this and I make models and was hired on to create a miniature set for stop animation. I am hoping to learn more and to ultimately work more on projects like these.
I guess I will sconsider that at least this was good experience and hope that from this maybe I can get hired on my someone who sees my work and then pays me for it lol.
Any suggestions ? I am basically a miniaturist who makes real life lookign models. But I signed one of these deals already .
J
Distressing to hear that there is little chance of being paid. I am really really new to all this and I make models and was hired on to create a miniature set for stop animation. I am hoping to learn more and to ultimately work more on projects like these.
I guess I will sconsider that at least this was good experience and hope that from this maybe I can get hired on my someone who sees my work and then pays me for it lol.
Any suggestions ? I am basically a miniaturist who makes real life lookign models. But I signed one of these deals already .
J
Everyone works for free to build their experience and portfolio. It's great
to work for free. What we are saying on this thread is a producer offering
"deferred" pay or points will most likely never pay. Not because they are
scamming people but because most movies never make any money. Every
producer who offers to pay you later has every intention of paying you
later. But they almost never make enough money to pay you.
So work for "deferred" pay or points, just do so with full understanding of
what it means. That's why as a producer I never make the promise. I ask
people to donate their time as a favor to me. And I treat those people as
if they are doing me a big favor. That's what I prefer as crew so I do that
as a producer.
Learn for your current project - just don't expect to ever see any money
at all.
the way i'm selling my feature, is that people work for free.
But should the super lottery ticket cash in, people who helped for free,
are guaranteed a part of the payout. But I always let them know upfront,
that they should never expect to see anything.
So i don't call it deferred pay, i call it a percentage payout of the movie should
it against all odds ever make a profit.
But should the super lottery ticket cash in, people who helped for free,
are guaranteed a part of the payout. But I always let them know upfront,
that they should never expect to see anything.
So i don't call it deferred pay, i call it a percentage payout of the movie should
it against all odds ever make a profit.
thank's very much for the input, I am very new to all this and I had the stars in my eyes a bit. lol
I really hope that my model making will continue until I can do it full time, we'll see, but in the world of 12th scale I can always help lol. I am enjoying to project and definitely want the experience.
I really hope that my model making will continue until I can do it full time, we'll see, but in the world of 12th scale I can always help lol. I am enjoying to project and definitely want the experience.
Yeah best not to bait potential crewmembers with money that they'll never see. A 23-year old just out of film school might feel more confident telling his parents that he/she is working for deferred pay, as opposed to free, but in propagating the "deferred pay", or "points" myth, indie filmmakers are not helping the cause of indie filmmaking, they are hurting it. The sooner anyone entering the indie filmmaking world knows the realities of the business, the better off we all are.
For a sobering account of the economics of indie films from the POV of an investment adviser who delved into it to to educate investors who read his blog to gain advice on various investment opps, one of them being film:
http://www.yourinvestmentadvise.com/filmmaking.htm
I always compare filmmaking with Pro Sports. Both are very competitive and difficult to make a living at. In sports, athletes accept that they will have to log MANY hours for free before they see a paycheck, if ever. A lot of them even pay to play. I play ice hockey in NYC in a recreational league. Over the summer we often have minor-pros drop in to hone their game as it is the off-season. They want to stay sharp and hopefully get to the next level, and they pay their game-fee just like everybody else.
It's great if you can offer some pay to crew and actors, but if you can't you can't. Just be honest with them. Your best bet are talented crew who have been in secondary positions and are looking to move up. That AC who works on features/commercials who has been shooting shorts or whatever content on his/her downtime as a DP and would kill to shoot a feature. Etc, etc. You get the gist.
For a sobering account of the economics of indie films from the POV of an investment adviser who delved into it to to educate investors who read his blog to gain advice on various investment opps, one of them being film:
http://www.yourinvestmentadvise.com/filmmaking.htm
I always compare filmmaking with Pro Sports. Both are very competitive and difficult to make a living at. In sports, athletes accept that they will have to log MANY hours for free before they see a paycheck, if ever. A lot of them even pay to play. I play ice hockey in NYC in a recreational league. Over the summer we often have minor-pros drop in to hone their game as it is the off-season. They want to stay sharp and hopefully get to the next level, and they pay their game-fee just like everybody else.
It's great if you can offer some pay to crew and actors, but if you can't you can't. Just be honest with them. Your best bet are talented crew who have been in secondary positions and are looking to move up. That AC who works on features/commercials who has been shooting shorts or whatever content on his/her downtime as a DP and would kill to shoot a feature. Etc, etc. You get the gist.
THANK YOU that actually does make me feel better. I know the experience is invaluable to an artist who never went to school. My art is just miniatures and mini sets as for animation and clay. One day who knows, but in the mean time I'll keep my day job lol. It is wearing on me though....working 16 hour days and having maybe nod ay off or just one. lol but that the price ya pay
the Right Thing
I'm producing and directing a doco, I have told everyone there is no money but what we are raising through crowd funding and sponsorship. We have a 5 person crew myself included. We have two other producers staying home. We have two composers. So in all, there are 9 people involved.
I hear what you all are saying, and I still feel I should provide a contract, if not deferred payment, than a points/percentage pay out. We are going to do our best to sell the documentary during production or in or after post.
Everyone understands we may never see any money, and that we've budgeted so far to cover all the costs included, meaning that no one other than myself and a producer who are putting whatever money we can in, will be out of pocket, aside from the time committed that stops them from taking paid work during that period.
Given that I still want to provide a contract that states the percentage/points each party is entitled to, would you all consider that insulting? I want to do the right thing by everyone.
Thanks for considering my post.
I'm producing and directing a doco, I have told everyone there is no money but what we are raising through crowd funding and sponsorship. We have a 5 person crew myself included. We have two other producers staying home. We have two composers. So in all, there are 9 people involved.
I hear what you all are saying, and I still feel I should provide a contract, if not deferred payment, than a points/percentage pay out. We are going to do our best to sell the documentary during production or in or after post.
Everyone understands we may never see any money, and that we've budgeted so far to cover all the costs included, meaning that no one other than myself and a producer who are putting whatever money we can in, will be out of pocket, aside from the time committed that stops them from taking paid work during that period.
Given that I still want to provide a contract that states the percentage/points each party is entitled to, would you all consider that insulting? I want to do the right thing by everyone.
Thanks for considering my post.
Add me to the list of folks who will never, ever work for deferred payment. As others have said, it's a guarantee not to get paid.
Low-/no- budget films can be made with volunteer crew, but it needs to be stated clearly up front what your intentions are and what the commitment terms are. There is one thing in your statement above, though, that caught my eye and is something of which to be cautious:
"... since I truly think this movie is going to make money..."
Not to be harsh, but... of course you do. That's pretty typical, because this project is your baby and you cannot help but to believe in it. Look at the larger picture, though, and accept the reality that most indie projects - especially from those who have no established recognition in the industry - will never go that far. And hey... if you do happen to turn it around and monetize it, you deserve a huge congrats for beating the odds!
What's important is to avoid becoming a craigslist stereotype, by which I mean a filmmaker who tries to get free labor by touting an unlikely potential that the filmmaker feels is a real winner. There are ads all over craigslist looking for folks to help make movies and TV shows for free, but instead of inviting people to flex their creative muscles and take part in a fun round of indie filmmaking, they pump it up by dangling carrots that are immediate turn-offs for anyone with senses of taste and smell. Only those who don't have those senses are willing to bite into the spoiled produce.
Avoid things like:
"Build experience." Well, duh. This means nothing to seasoned pros. Everything we do builds experience, so it should go without saying. The only ones that are attracted by this bait line are folks who have no clue.
"You'll get to work with some really talented folks." Well, I'd hope so. I'd hate to be on a project with a bunch of untalented hacks and wannabes. However, if I don't think that you're taking this seriously enough to want me on the crew without bullshitting me, I'm not going to take you seriously as a filmmaker.
"Could lead to other opportunities." Look, every gig I take is another notch in the belt, another line on the resume.
"This will look great on your resume." Really? If it gets shelved, never goes anywhere, or screens only to a handful of locals... who is going to care about that credit on a resume for a potential crewperson?
"In return, you'll get a free copy of the DVD." A free copy of the finished film won't put food on my plate, and doesn't give me much motivation to hop on board. If you want me to work for free, just tell me instead of hiding behind the illusion of sentimental swag.
"You'll be part of something amazing!" Don't care. Folks who do this, do it for the love of the craft. Pay or not, it's an industry that we choose to be in. To make this experience rewarding, simply be honest about the time commitment and production expectations. Don't try to sell me on what a great time I'll have.
Just poke around the film jobs on craigslist. There are a million of these.
You want to make a movie, and you have a shoestring budget. If you try to build a community of folks who love making movies and have some time to donate, not out of sympathy and not out of false promises, you'll end up with a winning team. That attitude should also carry throughout the production and post-production process. Heck, I jumped onto a 7-day film festival a couple of weeks ago, just because it sounded like fun (not because of a sales pitch from the producer, but because the 7-day challenge was intriguing). No pay, but the producer did feed the crew... which I'm glad to see is something you've budgeted for.
Side note: I took a paid gig recently on a pilot show (who the hell shoots pilots anymore?!). The producer originally wanted me to work on deferred payment. I didn't say no; I said, "Hell, no." He agreed to pay my day rate. He did not feed the crew... unless you count cold demo food from the cooking segments that had been sitting out for a couple hours. Never again.