off-topic CovidTalk

I don't think he was lying - saying something he knew to be false. I think
we was telling us what the science was saying. But he hasn't been in the
public eye so he was unprepared for the excoriating he got. He liked being
invited to speak on the news shows so he backed off from the science a bit
to be more accepted. Wearing a mask certainly doesn't hurt so it's not a
lie to suggest people wear a mask at all times.

While I'm on the subject...

How are people being infected?

We see the numbers of new infections daily. But we are not being told how.
Is it passive contact? For example; I'm infected and I'm walking my dog without
a mask. You walk past me wearing a mask. Assuming I don't sneeze or cough
as we pass can I infect you during those few seconds we pass outside on the street?

What about the same scenario in a store? I'm infected and not wearing a mask – you
pass me in the canned good isle. Assuming I don't sneeze or cough as we pass can
I infect you? What if we both are not wearing a mask? Can you get the virus from me
by passing me in a supermarket isle?

Here in California our governor has mandated those in church cannot sing or chant.
I wonder how many people in California have contracted the virus in a church that
allowed singing.

These are, I think, legit questions. I would love to know the science of transmission
of this virus. Not what is possible but exactly how people who got the virus got the virus.
It looks like they're NOT getting asked and IF they are? People don't want to say:

COVID-19: Contact tracing fears, rumors vs. how it really happens

If all that is true? Why not some kind of an anonymous contract tracing website so people can stay anonymous? There's got to be a way to do that.

Then there's this:

How to Get People to Actually Use Contact-Tracing Apps
 
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jax_rox

Staff Member
Moderator
They were quite strict and very safe. Temperature checks for everyone,
masks, lots of sanitizing stations. All of the on-screen talent were DLR
employees.

Hopefully some sort of rapid testing will allow us to go back to work more safely... I would have thought that the inability to insure would have been a greater hurdle to get back to production.

I've been with Broadcast Services for several years now. Part-time for
a while then day-hire. I've done work in Tokyo and Euro Disney and quite
a bit of shooting in Florida parks. But mostly special events and live broadcast
events for the Anaheim parks. I love it!
Man, I wanna do that job! Haha

I found this quite interesting:
CDC on Masks from May 2020

Locally, our medical experts changed their views on this after a wide-ranging study published in The Lancet at the start of June showing that masks in conjunction with social distancing measures (which were the most important) could effect greater reduction in spread (though the study suggested N95 masks were by far the most effective).

Other ‘pundits’ have suggested that the general thinking previously was that outside of a clinical setting, masks could do more harm than good as they can be uncomfortable and people may not wear them correctly and inadvertently either infect themselves or render them useless.

How are people being infected?

This is a great, and important, distinction. Luckily here our contact tracing is very good and the public health decisions made are informed and influenced by that data. Our new mask mandate is in great part, I think, due to workplace transmission for those who are still working. The other big transmission is family-to-family where masks are not really used anyway.

For example; I'm infected and I'm walking my dog without
a mask. You walk past me wearing a mask. Assuming I don't sneeze or cough
as we pass can I infect you during those few seconds we pass outside on the street?

As far as I’m aware it depends on the mask - I.e. an N95 mask would do a better job stopping the mask-wearer being infected by you. Otherwise, if a cloth or other mask, it protects others from the wearer... therefore a mandate is necessary as it’s

  • Impossible to know who is sick and therefore who will need a mask as transmission can occur in Asymptomatic and presymptomatic cases, and:
  • By mandating mask-wearing, it ensures people are protected from those who are Asymptomatic or presymptomatic (and therefore do not know they’re sick)
Or at least that’s the discussion going around here..

Interestingly, though, with the local contact tracing (and to be honest, there are far fewer cases locally, even despite our new lockdown than in most parts of the US), there is little to no transmission from stores or simply being out and about. Why that is could have many potential reasons...

If all that is true? Why not some kind of an anonymous contract tracing website so people can stay anonymous? There's got to be a way to do that.
There are apps, but not sure about their effectiveness...
 
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Another issue is the huge amount of conflicting information out there, and the highly polarized political situation. Wearing a mask doesn't really help, wearing a mask is essential. Lock-downs are essential, no they are not. This politician or pundit is a moron, that one is a genius. The debates rage on and on without any consensus, even among scientific types, some of who have even contradicted themselves. The political polarization puts some people in distrust of both sides, while others become raging fanatics of one position or another. So many of us have no idea who to believe.

I HATE wearing a mask. It gives me that "I can't breath" feeling, a sense of being too closed in, and it fogs up my glasses. On top of that, I can't see peoples faces. So I do not want to wear a mask. However, it does make some sense to do so when indoors and when packed tightly with others outdoors, although social distancing makes that situation sort of moot at this time.
I constantly hear about conflicting information, which is true to a point. But if you get your information from reliable sources and it makes scientific sense (that bit is important), you'll know it's fine. Problem is a lot of people get their 'news' or information from some crazy places these days. I mention this as even when the CDC and WHO were saying early on that masks weren't effective, it didn't take much to realize why they were compelled to say this. It was pretty obvious. Mask effectiveness with other viruses is well documented. And if the medical community wear them, you can be certain they're useful.

So why the lies you ask. Think of what would have happened if they'd said masks were essential to save lives - there would have been massive panic buying by the general public (who at that time weren't on the front lines so-to-speak) and that would have most likely resulted in more deaths for those in the medical field. Don't believe me? Look at the toilet payer crisis! How else would you deal with the immediate problem. The federal government certainly wasn't (and still aren't) going to help. So I can see why they felt they had to lie. At least until we had enough masks for the medical community. What makes me laugh is that those who don't want to be compelled by government are hypocrites of the highest order. They'll happily let government compel pregnant women to have babies they don't want to. And strangely they're fine with they themselves submitting to government commands, lets call these commands 'laws.' Such as driving on the correct side of the road, stopping at a red light, wearing a seat belt, slowing down when driving past a school, etc, etc, etc. So why not a piece of fabric in front of your face? Something that for me at least, is such a tiny, effortless thing to do.

Don't worry though, COVID-19 is not the end of the world. No, that's frightening concept is already lined up for us all - it's called climate change. But if we can get through this, and make major changes to the way we live and think about potential disasters, maybe we stand a small chance of slowing down that in the future. Just look at the government stimulus packages. You'd think the current administration was a European democratic socialist party, or even the right wing UK government by the way they were giving (redistributing) money to the population. Sure, it wasn't anything like the 80% of a person's current wage that many in the UK and Europe have been receiving. But it was a staggeringly socialist thing to do for a right wing administration. Because of that I am hopeful. There are fools in any country, but in the face of adversity good people stand up. Just look at the changes from the recent BLM protests. Be safe and well everyone.
 

sfoster

Staff Member
Moderator
This time the stimulus was a special agreement between citizens and the government that forced everyone out of work and requested we all stay home, and the government would have our backs during this crisis.

as long as stimulus is a temporary, anti-recession measure then it doesnt qualify as socialism imo.
show me stimulus during times of economic prosperity, that aren't desperate attempts to jump start the economy from a recession and now you'll have a point.

yes there was a single 1200 check but if you look at what really happened the vast majority of stimulus went to wall street and big corporations, not to American citizens lol. It was the biggest corporate giveaway in our country’s history. Funny you think it was some massive wealth distribution to the citizens bc all I saw was them catering to wall street. even the small business fund which really should have been the heart of this thing - did you see what happened?

they put a cap on it. the huge cows came to the troff and ate up 80% of what was in it.
then the small businesses go to it and theres only 20% left, its all capped out and they're left in the cold. i was disappointed with how our country handled covid but most of all that everything became divisive, even masks, that we cant trust our scientific leaders to be straight with us.

I understand why he would lie - he said that in his own words in the video i posted. dont need his explanation repeated lol. he already said it.
but heres the thing they could have said cloth masks at home work - make your own. and how many lives would have been saved?

did you see how short the first wave of this virus was in hong kong? do you know how many people died bc these assholes didn't tell the truth.
no i do not agree that it was okay to lie to everyone and condemn a bunch of their own citizens to death. i think they are immoral and untrustworthy.
and i do not like or respect him AT ALL. in fact if i were in charge i would consider doing an act of retribution against him for abusing the trust of our country during such a vulnerable time. i would most certainly appoint a different surgeon general and expect more from my own damn people. but thats just a fantasy. im an atheist i would never be president 😄
 
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>He straight up admits he lied.

He explained and then the reporter goes to say: "...The people would have listened..."

Have you been paying attention? Some people listen. Some do not. It doesn't take a lot of people who don't listen to cause a big mess like the one you're in.

We had our cases down to about 50 in our country with all of them in a controlled quarantine. Within 2 weeks, it's up to 3500. I'm sure it doesn't seem like much to you, but it's proving to be a very tricky advisary.

I wasn't paying attention to your news over there, but when this all started, didn't your leaders say, "Don't go out and panic buy" or words to that effect? It still happened, so, while the people would have listened, too many would have gone about and done exactly what shouldn't have happened.

That being said, should he have lied? In a perfect world, absolutely not. When you have good, straight shooting leaders that the people trust, you're more able to tell the general public the truth. Unfortunately, the reality is your leaders don't have the best reputation to be trustworthy. Without that trust, how do you convince people to make actions that are against their own best interests, but for the interests of their fellow man and the community. On top of that, Trump is a bit of a wildcard. I'm not sure if I was in Fauci position, I wouldn't hedge my bets and do what he did. In that environment he probably thought that misleading the public for the greater good by making sure those most responsible for keeping those sick alive aren't thrown under the bus. Covid in USA is a mess. Imagine how high your deathcount would have climbed if the doctors and nurses went on strike. Can you imagine the follow-on economic devistation that would have come with that?

Sure he lied. He's the least of your problems over there. He's probably one of your best chance to get out of the mess you're in.

I'm glad our leaders over here have the public trust. They haven't always been right. They've made mistakes, owned up to it and back stepped and fixed them the best they can. They've been clear in their communication on not only what's happening, but why. Their decisions haven't served everyone as well as others. One thing our leaders are doing is leaving politics out of it. Doing what's needing to be done in which they see is in the best interests of our country. Our national leaders have been supporting our state leaders, even those of the opposite political party.

I don't think Fauci had the same support as what our medical advisors have had over here.

Has Trumps politicking been in your best interests? I guess history will be the judge.
 

sfoster

Staff Member
Moderator
>He straight up admits he lied.

He explained and then the reporter goes to say: "...The people would have listened..."

Have you been paying attention? Some people listen. Some do not.

yeah ive been paying attention and the most reasonable question is WHY would they listen when their leaders lie to them ?
dont trust them as far as i can throw them and i have a bad back.
 
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sfoster

Staff Member
Moderator
Would this guy lie to us during covid? I DONT THINK SO.



David Palmer for president. Are you in good hands?
 
David Palmer for president. Are you in good hands?

..and Jack Bauer is his medical advisor... you don't obey, he comes for you, damn it! I'm sure there'd be more compliance... truth, lies or whatnot.

yeah ive been paying attention and the most reasonable question is WHY would they listen when their leaders lie to them ?

On one hand, I would assume people are smart enough not to... but on the other, he did get voted in, so, I really don't know. No one has time to fact check everything that comes from his mouth, whether it be fake news or a Cafeffe... By the way, what is that? Some kind of half Giraffe, half Coffee political superhero?

Back to us.. The public didn't trust our leaders coming into this covid. It's a popular opinion that they botched up a national bush fires emergency a few months earlier. They earnt the public trust through the covid crisis. I'm sure it helped that we have this Island all to ourselves.
 
I wasn't paying attention to your news over there, but when this all started, didn't your leaders say, "Don't go out and panic buy" or words to that effect? It still happened, so, while the people would have listened, too many would have gone about and done exactly what shouldn't have happened.

No offense but herd mentality is herd mentality... People are PEOPLE the world over. As soon as Covid 19 hit? The entire WORLD went into panic buying which is why I had to wait a month before I went out and bought some friggin' toilet paper and even then? There wasn't much to choose from. LOL. I'm still using Sam's Club brand.

Just try yelling FIRE anywhere where there's people out and about and you'll quickly find yourself in a stampede.

In my neck of the woods? Even the regular, basic painting masks were all gone and this was WITH the lies. People are PEOPLE.

Don't believe me?

Coronavirus panic: Why are people stockpiling toilet paper?

That was written on 04 March 2020.
 

jax_rox

Staff Member
Moderator
In my neck of the woods? Even the regular, basic painting masks were all gone and this was WITH the lies.

I’m optimistic and hopeful that COVID will be a breakthrough point in US politics... guess we’ll see what happens
 
I'm neither a democrat or republican... I lost faith in our government many many moons ago having been in the Navy for 21 years.

As bad as it may sound to some? I don't vote. I could care less about local politics and since the presidential election is based on electoral votes? I don't waste my time which is my right. As we all have, I've been on both sides of the fence when it comes to administrations and while some might say my views are a bit askew? I've never really seen a whole hell of a lot of difference between the two sides. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. It is what it is.

I have too many friends and associates on both sides of the fence so caught up in all of it that to me? Standing on the sidelines? That extreme concern ends up engulfing many of them to the point that that's ALL they can think or talk about which to me? Takes their quality of life down a few notches.

Don't get me wrong... I feel for both sides.

Unfortunately? In my brief experience on this earth? I haven't seen that much change in either government or politics and I doubt that I will in my lifetime.
 
This time the stimulus was a special agreement between citizens and the government that forced everyone out of work and requested we all stay home, and the government would have our backs during this crisis.

as long as stimulus is a temporary, anti-recession measure then it doesnt qualify as socialism imo.

did you see how short the first wave of this virus was in hong kong? do you know how many people died bc these assholes didn't tell the truth.
no i do not agree that it was okay to lie to everyone and condemn a bunch of their own citizens to death. i think they are immoral and untrustworthy.
and i do not like or respect him AT ALL. in fact if i were in charge i would consider doing an act of retribution against him for abusing the trust of our country during such a vulnerable time. i would most certainly appoint a different surgeon general and expect more from my own damn people. but thats just a fantasy. im an atheist i would never be president 😄

I do agree with most of what you said, but I was just pointing out that the stimulus package was a democratic socialist thing to do (remember democratic socialist governments are pro capitalism. I lived with several of those (Labor) governments in the UK, and we never once became communist. And like social security, and publicly funded libraries, police, roads, army, street lights etc - all are examples of the same socialist principles. Just saying).

As for the lying about masks, I was saying I understood why they did it. Not that I agreed. I started wearing masks as soon as we heard about cases here. As I knew they were lying. Just not sure how I would have handled the situation, without affecting the safety of medical workers on the front line. Sadly, more than anything, this initial mixed message, added to the continual mixed message from this administration, haven't helped convince certain fringes of society. But I do not, nor never have believed in the "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" way of thinking, so don't distrust them at all. I stay educated, and base my behavior on medical/scientific facts first, governor decrees second. The fact that they have come out and explained why they did lie is important too and is more than many would have done.

As I've said, I don't agree with how they did it, but I simply don't know how I would have done it better. And so can't condemn them outright or else I would feel hypocritical. I've always thought one must have at least a different solution to an issue before one can condemn it fully. I disagree with them, but am still trying to figure how they would have done otherwise. Would be interested to know what you would have done to solve that issue, without causing panic-buying and creating a crisis in hospitals at the time?
 

jax_rox

Staff Member
Moderator
the stimulus package was a democratic socialist thing to do (remember democratic socialist governments are pro capitalism.

At the risk of getting too political, I would have thought that stimulus is simply basic economics.

At least - for any government that doesn’t want its economy to completely collapse.

I would have thought that would be a really good reason to keep the extra unemployment benefit in place post-July, personally...
 
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At the risk of getting too political, I would have thought that stimulus is simply basic economics.

At least - for any government that doesn’t want its economy to completely collapse.
Couldn't agree more with you. I'm just defining what the redistribution of wealth is. By saying its more of a democratic socialist thing, I'm also trying to say, don't be scared of the words I use. We have socialism everywhere in our society. Let's embrace it and understand it - in the context of democratic socialism. BTW Europe's had and has many democratic socialist governments and rival parties, and it's still pro-capitalism. The USA has a knee jerk reaction (harking back to the post WW2 cold war) of anything that resembles socialism. Thinking immediately its communism. Forgetting the political socialism of the pre-WW2, post depression era USA, and all the wonderful things we got (and still have) because of that. Just saying.
 
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sfoster

Staff Member
Moderator
it’s not fair for me to say what I would have done in February since I have all these months of hindsight.

But I will say I think trust in institutions is vital for navigating a crisis like covid. And when trust is broken it is gone for an entire generation of people
 
No offense but herd mentality is herd mentality... People are PEOPLE the world over. As soon as Covid 19 hit? The entire WORLD went into panic buying...

I'm not going to take offense. You're saying what I was meaning in a more graceful way.

Unfortunately? In my brief experience on this earth? I haven't seen that much change in either government or politics and I doubt that I will in my lifetime.

In my opinion, it's the ability for the average Joe to vote combined with unforseen changes in technology and society that causes a lot of the political problems with democracy.

At the risk of getting too political, I would have thought that stimulus is simply basic economics.

At least - for any government that doesn’t want its economy to completely collapse.

I would have thought that would be a really good reason to keep the extra unemployment benefit in place post-July, personally...

Economics is far from simple at the best of times. Right now, it's even more complex. There's always unknown factors, that's just a part of economics, but most countries in the world are still trying to recover financially from the strain of the global financial crisis a little over 10 years ago. The debts incurred by many countries to try to maintain financial stabilty meant there are less buffers available than normally would be available for times like this. This also bombined with shrinking taxes from economies contracting doesn't help things... but what's also an issue are interest rates. They're one of the most common tools to accelerate and slow down economies. They've been at record low rates for some time now. That tool isn't availabel to try to stimulate economies. So that leaves stimulus packages.. but those leave a real risk of high inflation, which can hurt the very people who needed the help in the first place.

Adding to the complexity, if you strain national borrowings too much, you'll end up running into forced austerity programs, like what happened in Greece.... or even worse, bankrupted the banking systems and potentially governments.... which almost happened in 2008/2009 when Ireland was almost the first domino. As you've seen in Greece, there's a real risk for governments to do massive damage which the public will be paying down that debt and having to live with a lower quality of life for generations.

Couldn't agree more with you. I'm just defining what the redistribution of wealth is. By saying its more of a democratic socialist thing, I'm also trying to say, don't be scared of the words I use. We have socialism everywhere in our society. Let's embrace it and understand it - in the context of democratic socialism. BTW Europe's had and has many democratic socialist governments and rival parties, and it's still pro-capitalism. The USA has a knee jerk reaction (harking back to the post WW2 cold war) of anything that resembles socialism. Thinking immediately is communism. Forgetting the political socialism of the pre-WW2, post depression era USA, and all the wonderful things we got (and still have) because of that. Just saying.

A lot of people don't realise that unemployment benefits, free medical (at least in my country), public housing, public education and stimulus packages are some of the benefits of socialism. While it's not entirely accurate and overly simplistic, the more efficient your capitalism is, the more opportunities appear and your tax base becomes larger. The more tax you collect, the more you have to spend on social programs to benefit those less fortunate. The more you tax to spend on social programs, the less efficient capitalism becomes. Considering the world is an always moving target, getting it right is a tricky balancing act.
 
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