Audio Editing Evaluation

[Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC]

If I post a clip next week on vimeo, will I be able to get an evaluation on whether or not a heavy wind can be removed from a scene?

If it cannot, the whole damn scene will have to be ADRed.

I will upload it this coming week.

I removed the music already so it is easier to pin point.

 

[rocksure]

"Uniformed"? He wears a uniform?

BTW, not a good idea to trash someone you have been working with, especially in a public forum. As far as I can remember he didn't say one bad word about you.

With the raw data I could probably do a very nice pass at the dialog. It would be smooth and - aside from the accents - intelligible. This would be especially true if I have access to all of the audio from the unused takes. It takes time and patience to do all of the things that a dialog/sound editor does - checkerboarding, NR, EQ, etc. It takes even more time to learn how a dialog/sound editor does his/her job.

As far as tone is concerned grabbing bits and pieces to create a continuous ambience rarely works well, especially in an active outdoors environment. You really need to record at least one minute tone (I prefer five minutes) on the day of the shoot; it will not be the same tone if recorded at a later date.



Actually, when sound was first introduced, the production sound mixer was given the power to yell "Cut!" if the sound was bad. This held true until WWII. A few of the new crop of directors - Tarrantino for example - have given this power back to the PSM.

The PSM should cut a scene for poor sound quality, say if there is a major technical problem or a loud sound like a plane or motorcycle or lawnmower is actually obscuring the dialog. And as to having big name stars being upset by calling a take for technical reasons the truly talented, truly dedicated stars understand; they'll be even more upset if they have to reshoot because someone FUBARed on a technical level. There's a world of difference between calling attention to a serious technical problem and screwing up during a take (your Bale example).

Other than major audio problems a competent PSM keeps notes on the audio log for all other audio issues - a dropped prop, a mumbled line, a distant plane, etc. As to making "eye contact" with the director or crew member they have their own job on which to concentrate, sound is YOUR job as PSM. If the issue is serious enough it's your job to make the call, not have someone else confirm it for you. BTW, if the rest of the crew has headphones like they are supposed to they will hear what's going on for themselves.

At the low/no/mini/micro budget level you have to make all sorts of compromises; sometimes that means letting some audio issues get by as you do not have the time, personnel, budget, etc. This is mostly because the PSM is also swinging the boom and has to concentrate on that part of the job more than the others, so things will get by. As an audio post guy I understand that, which is also why I preach such incredible on-set production sound discipline.


I have no idea of your actual skill level, but based upon your attitudes I would hesitate to work with you. You are just as uniformed - oops, I mean uninformed - and misguided as the person you are trashing so publicly. At least he is asking for advice and taking his public beating like a man.

Well summed up I believe.

 

[anzel2002]

Can some one tell me how I personally trashed Mike C. I just do not see it.
And really? AA
A typo? not even a typo , to harp on that ,twice , thats just , well what ever

Christian Bale is the truly talented, he is the truly dedicated star, so I suppose he does understand. And that was just randomly caught on tape. Or course everyones temperament is different. Who knows how things are day in and day out.

And a plane or motorcycle or lawnmower is plainly obvious that there is a sound issue going on, You wouldn't need a PSM to tell a competent director or actor there is a problem at that moment. And if something dropped , why would you stop a take, the lines/performace following may be stellar, but I will keep your advice in mind, since I inquired

And you briefly have seen/heard my skill level and even in that mess of a post production mix you commented: "it's not too bad, I fix this kind of stuff all the time. If you want solid intelligible dialog (apart from the accents) most of it is already there. This is audio post 101, and not that hard. The "difficult" part is acquiring the proper tools (software, speakers, room, etc.) and the experience."

Well anyway, I live in NYC, you cant go a week in the spring and summer and fall without seeing a film crew some where ( law and order etc) so I will definitely take notice and watch the hierarchy etc, and see who is calling the shots etc director , AD, sound guy etc, . But thinking back , the sound cart is usually yards away from the action, so I don't even know how he would call cut anyway. Not to mention all the car and driving scenes that take place, I don't think he is calling cut in those scenes either. But once again I will keep your advice in mind since I asked.

 

[knightly]

But it was a funny typo

I think the point's been made. You've defended your work, and no one is arguing with you.

I also find the accents really difficult to hear through, but if the director likes the actor for the role, we work with what we've got.

 

[anzel2002]

Ok fine
and thanks to Kessler for his feedback, and info on gear
he seems to know his gear pretty well
even tho he seemed inexplicably pugnacious towards me for some reason

 

[Alcove Audio]

Can some one tell me how I personally trashed Mike C. I just do not see it.

When you call someone "Uninformed" and "Misguided" in a public forum I would construe that as unnecessary negative comments directed at someone with whom you have worked. Calling his work "a mess" even if he is an audio newb is also less than friendly. You need to learn more diplomatic language at the least, and to keep such comments to yourself at best.

And if something dropped , why would you stop a take, the lines/performace following may be stellar, but I will keep your advice in mind, since I inquired

I didn't say stop the take for a dropped prop, I said:

a competent PSM keeps notes on the audio log for all other audio issues - a dropped prop, a mumbled line, a distant plane, etc.

Then when the take is complete s/he informs the 1st AD if it was a serious enough problem to warrant another take or perhaps to do some dialog wilds.

And you briefly have seen/heard my skill level and even in that mess of a post production mix

But the point is I didn't hear your work, I heard what resulted after someone still learning the audio post ropes worked on it.

Go back and reread my post. TV and indie film calls for lots of compromises. Budgets and schedules are tight, so a lot of things are accepted that may not be acceptable on a major budget film set. Even there the PSM only yells "cut" for a major audio disaster, not the normal problems that crop up all the time.

 

[wheatgrinder]

Ill paraphrase your comments (the first post) this is how I interpreted what you wrote, its all about perception..

"hes a nice guy"
"he stupid and doesn't know what hes talking about"
"has no talent"
"the DP agrees, he's so stupid that he needs to be protected from him self"

Just because you said it all mellow like, doesn't mean its not trashing. Regardless of your intention, you belittled him in our site. Someone who has participated and tried to assist others, to help out by offering unique insight and ideas.

As my mommy taught me, "Just because its TRUE doesn't it mean its not gossip!"

I am sympathetic to your position, Im NOT sympathetic to your methods. That said, I really wont hold it against your, the interweb is so confusing and I get boggled in the head some times.. ..

 

[knightly]

We've moved our process on set to asking at the end of each take how picture and audio takes were. This allows us to get through full takes that have small problems and empower our crew and give them great ownership over the quality of their jobs... which benefits the project overall and increases production quality.

End of take, cam op and DP give thumbs up or down as a purely technical indicator as do the boom op and recordist. Each is looking/listening for a different aspect. 4 thumbs up and one from the director and script supe and we get a safety and move on.

 

[anzel2002]

whatgrinder - i didn't call anybody stupid,and i do appreciate you being sympathetic to my position

knightly - thats a good work flow

but as bob constantly points out , so many times directors , just dont pay enough attention to sound on set, too many times its just way in the back of their mind or on the bottom of their priorities , not all the time, but many.

sometimes you are fighting an uphill battle just to get good sound on some sets
sometimes you have to squeeze in moments just to get wild takes

 

[rocksure]

I have to say I totally understand why anzel2002 is so defensive about the way his sound work has been scrutinized, criticized, and almost crucified in the posts before his first posting. For him to have to sit back and read this and not get at least a little upset would be very difficult.
Perhaps anzel2002 you did not wisely word some of your comments and criticsm's either, they have come out as a bit of a personal attack on Mike which has not gone down well here...but I won't be one to throw stones because I think many people would react in a similar ( or harsher) way in order to defend their own work from what they perceive as unfair criticism. I guess you just have to be carful HOW you say things.
Human relations get strained by these sorts of issues...it's part of life and learning to work with people.
I have listened on my studio monitors to the clip several times, and it was obvious to me, as I have posted several times that the problem was every bit as much in the way the sound was processed in post, as is was to the original recording. Mike has stated that it sounded worse before it was "played with", anzel2002 says no it was better before it was messed with. Without hearing the original we cannot pass judgement on this point, but I can say that the way it has been processed needs to be reversed and go back to the original audio and let someone wiith the right skills and equipment deal with it. As someone who works with sound day in day out, it was obvious to me from first listen that the processing was not done right. You need a well trained ear and experience, as Alcove has suggested, in order to properly deal with sound issues like these.
Rather than bickering over who did what and who said what........look for away forward and get the film finished. That will be of the most benefit to all.

 

[Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC]

Maybe it's just out of context but that sentence makes no sense to me. Even if you fix the grammatical error so it reads "Children of my children are doable." I still don't get it.

Is it part of a longer sentence?

Yes! If you watch the video clip, it's at the beginning when the cyborgs first see Artemis dressed as a soldier from their army and don't recognize her and have to search their digital records before they match her to the statues and paintings of the Human goddess, Artemis - Goddess of the Amazons.

The full sentence is, "What facinating creatures you cyborgs are . . . children of my children." And, Artemis is considered by the Amazons to be The Great Mother. The statues of Artemis in The Temple of Artemis, which still stands today in Turkey represents Artemis as a great fertility goddess.

 

[Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC]

The problem with shooting outdoors is everything is done with battery power and time is spent constantly replacing the batteries.

The bottom line now is the audio for this scene needs to be fixed. It stands out as bad compared to the rest of the footage.

I do have a working relationship with the major audio editing house from back in the days when I made animatics. They knew my financial situation and cut me very good rates. They had a trainee work on my stuff with a union editor looking over his shoulder to guide the trainee every step of the way. Using this method, they cut me sweet deals of only charging me 1/10TH their professional rate.

With the economy hitting postproduction houses hard where some of them are going out of business because the studios are doing more post on their own in house, the post audio house may still be willing to cut me a sweet deal to fix the audio in this scene. If so, it will be WAY cheaper than trying to bring back Katarina from Serbia.

The market for the final cut of this production is NATPE and the television studios. I cannot let the audio in this scene stay this way. It has to get WAY better.

 

[anzel2002]

Thank you dreadly locks and rocksure for noting that i have the right to defend my work and being understanding.

Oh wow bob , talk about the height of hypocrisy. You call me out/berate me for
this-"When you call someone "Uninformed" and "Misguided" in a public forum I would construe that as unnecessary negative comments directed at someone" And then You yourself say it to me, but unlike mine, your claims are totally baseless. I mean seriously wow. You were biased against me from your first line of your post and to your last. But i guess thats just "based upon your attitudes" [sic]

Oh and can you cite any specific references about your examples of the sound mixer was given the power to yell "Cut!" before WW2 or Tarrantinos' similar workflow.
Any books or papers or videos I can check out. Would like to read up on it.

And once again MDM/mike is a nice guy, but he did unfortunately and inadvertently , i guess , in a way trash my work.

Be honest, for a minute, if your work was mangled and then posted in a public forum, and then looking for opinions from your peers, let me honestly know how you would feel.

Well thanks to everyone else(except alcove) for being neutral to a stranger.
You guys were open to both sides of the issue and made your decisions based on what your saw,heard and can deduce with the given information.
I know you all like MDM, and he has posted thousands of posts and is part of a nice and supportive community here. And even MDM himself came back after 50 posts and did not get into the fray. The guy wouldn't hurt a fly.

 

[Dreadylocks]

Ok, yes. You have the right to defend your work. I stand by what I said there.

But I agree with this:

Ill paraphrase your comments (the first post) this is how I interpreted what you wrote, its all about perception..

"hes a nice guy"
"he stupid and doesn't know what hes talking about"
"has no talent"
"the DP agrees, he's so stupid that he needs to be protected from him self"

Obviously you've got your first amendment rights, but be careful when you defend your work to not put ad hominem attacks in there. That will hurt you more than any defending could help.

Think of it this way. As a filmmaker I'm still learning. Let's say I hire you as the sound mixer for my next film. Am I going to have to worry about you going around and gossiping about how I didn't do this professionally, or I had never heard of x piece of equipment? Will you be whispering with the DP about how I'm probably not going to do your recording justice? Obviously being a nice person has nothing to do with whether or not you will judge a person. So that makes me wary of hiring you.

No offense intended here, but that's honestly how I would feel about hiring anyone if I saw them make posts attacking a fellow filmmaker/employer.

The internet is a small town, brother. You best remember it.

 

[knightly]

Mod Statement: Time to move past this now Anzel. You're pointing fingers and singling folks out who are highly respected members of this forum with loads of great input here. This doesn't help your case.

Member statement: It's often frustrating at this level as part of our pay is the ability to show off our work in the final product. Since we are often paid using copy and credit, we want it to show off our work as good as it possibly can. This forum is a community of people who know the meaning of a rough edit and the posts here are not specifically (or often anywhere near) what it'll be at the end of post.

 

[wheatgrinder]

Peace to all. I look forward to Anzel contribution to this forum in the future. I hope I have not turned you off, in fact, perhaps now you will feel the awkward introductions are over and you can become and IT addict like the rest of us.. CURSE YOU indietalk CURSE YOU!

 

[Alcove Audio]

Oh and can you cite any specific references about your examples of the sound mixer was given the power to yell "Cut!" before WW2 or Tarrantinos' similar workflow.

Yes I can.

http://filmsound.org/murch/stretching.htm

If you can't trust Walter Murch, whom can you trust?

I don't remember the specific issue, but Tarrantino was interviewed in POST magazine about "Inglourious Basterds" regarding his audio workflow.

 

[Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC]

As the cop for our production pointed out, there is always a clash of words between people in a production.

There will be a shake-up with the crew. That is inevitable. The cast will hang loose for the pickup footage and ADR for the good of the production. They have already obligated that promise to me. We will get what we need for as long as it takes. Only one actress cannot make it.

The scene shown here really needs work with the audio. It is beyond my skills and techniques to fix. However, there are more experienced audio editors with mastered skills that can do wonders to improve it.

All I'll say about the outbusts here is what the editor of my Very Special Agents production, Oriol told me.

As the guy paying all the bills, I have a right to voice my dissatisffaction when the production is not being made up to par. Diasagreements happen all the time and the crew has to know when they are not performing up to par.

 

[Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC]

Once again, my objective will be to get the audio in this scene fixed.

 

[Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC]

There is a lot of mistakes the DP made that I was able to fix, including people walking behind actors as they were talking, stuff in frame that needed to be surgically removed, and bad calls with audio too where two people shared the blame.

He actually knows a lot less than I do about edting too.

As I said, I fixed all of the visual stuff. It's the audio I can't fix. I'm saving the DPs butt with my editing. He messed up the framing of the greenscreen spaceship interior that I corrected with digital cropping. So, he's not as good as he thinks he is. He doesn't even know how to do speed effects.

I'd like to thank Alcove for his evaluation. I'm sure once I get the ambience recorded, I can find an audio editor who can fix this scene.

There is even a shot in the scene presented in this thread where a passerby walked behind an actress as she was talking that I remove digitally. I even proved to the cast and some crew members that it is possible to edit in a stunt dummy when the DP though it was impossible. I have more skills and experience than him doing it.

As for the audio, I will find an editor with the right skills and experience to fix the audio and we will ADR the audio for what characters we can.

 

[Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC]

Sorry about people taking offense.

My objective stills remains to fix what is broken.

I thank Alcove and those who have given me the direction to go in to remedy what needs to be fixed. Thank you all.

I'll post a link tonight to a clip called, Rescue Me Revised." It shows the special effects that I was told cannot be done. People who have seen it agree, it works. There are speed effects, CGI, and split screens all utilized to make a very exciting action scene.

I used to have a production office in Times Square in NYC when I was a partner in another production company. In my free time, I went across the hall to editors who shared the floor with me. I learned just be looking over their shoulders how to do tricks of the trade with special effects. It was just applying those same techniques to new software (Sony Vegas Pro as opposed to AE) to know speed effects, split screen, and CGI can all be done for IC2. I sat and chat with the editors who had difficult tasks of saving badly shot Indie films.

So, I'm not as dumb as people think. I learned valuable tricks of the trade.