editing Audio Editing Evaluation

[Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC]

If I post a clip next week on vimeo, will I be able to get an evaluation on whether or not a heavy wind can be removed from a scene?

If it cannot, the whole damn scene will have to be ADRed.

I will upload it this coming week.

I removed the music already so it is easier to pin point.

 

[anzel2002]

OK knighly, I will try not to hurt the feelings of any of the grown adults in these rooms. Although many people here are striving to succeed in show business, one of the hardest businesses to succeed in, filled with massive rejection , and harsh realities in the real world. Simply hiding your head in the sand , may not be in the best interest of those, (dealing with some of those harsh realties sooner than later maybe a benefit to some ) but either way I will stick to your guide lines, and try to stick to discussing gear and techniques and workflow etc.

Speaking of workflow and technique, I thank the member for linking to the Walter Murch article, but trying to prove a point making reference to what is more the exception rather than the norm is rather weak way of going about it, and then the same article goes on to say "Instead the sound recordist was usually stuck in some dark corner with his equipment cart. The very idea of his demanding "Cut!" was inconceivable: not only did none of them on the set fear his opinion, they hardly consulted him and were frequently impatient when he did voice an opinion
"inconceivable"

that seems more the reality and norm of the situation currently,
and to pretend otherwise may not only be bad advice, but may be detrimental to some ones work

It is good to know history, but things change, workflow changes, and members here are trying to learn etiquette and workflow about the sets of 2012, not 85 years ago.

"In those first few years after the commercialization of film sound, in 1926, everything HAD to be recorded simultaneously — music, dialogue, sound effects — and once recorded, nothing could be changed."
I can say with certitude, that is 100 percent not the case today

 

[rocksure]

The bottom line now is the audio for this scene needs to be fixed. It stands out as bad compared to the rest of the footage.

Just a point to note here:
It would be a good idea to give the audio post people you choose to deal with to fix this, the audio for the whole picture not just this scene if you can, because if they do a god job it is likely to stand out as better than the sound in the other parts of the film. Final sound levels and textures need to be kept consistent relative to the whole picture, not just the one scene.

 

[Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC]

Just a point to note here:
It would be a good idea to give the audio post people you choose to deal with to fix this, the audio for the whole picture not just this scene if you can, because if they do a god job it is likely to stand out as better than the sound in the other parts of the film. Final sound levels and textures need to be kept consistent relative to the whole picture, not just the one scene.

Thank you, Rocksure.

I was thinking about that too.

 

[Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC]

Okay now.

I was told by a crew member, these speed effects cannot be done:

http://vimeo.com/34508711

PW is mdmpllc

Seeing is believing.

As another crew members said who saw this clip, "It works. It's all about techniques."

 

[Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC]

Now, about editing in a stunt dummy.

I did my homework studying how it was done in Hercules, starring Kevin Sorbo and watching videos on Youtube.

There is one common rule:

Obscure the dummy where there is no clear image of it.

Two ways it is done:

1.) Shadow it out where it looks like a dark silhouette

2.) Blur it out with velocity effects which means ramp up the frame rate and blur the dummy.

And, this is what I've done:

http://vimeo.com/34438628

PW is mdmpllc

I have a newer version I just did this week where I added fine running water as an aura over the fallen silver alien in the end where it looks like finer pieces of silver break off the larger chunks and then they evaporate.

 

[anzel2002]

OK everyone, here it is , for any one interested
http://vimeo.com/34989001
PWudding

I would categorize what you are hearing, as less than a rough cut, done by an unqualified sound mixer(there are still 4 or 5 bad NR lines too). In addition I am pretty certain there may be alternate takes to use, if needed, and some wild lines too. In other words, I believe after a proper mix you can really get a nice results here

In the scope of an indie budget and indie set, I think this is good to very good.
It cant be Hollywood quality without Hollywood money/ime as Bob said. True
Once again,one must be a little delusional to compare their indie movie to what they see on TV and Movie theaters. Of course strive to be the best tho.
I am not talking about any one in particular , just local film makers in general

Maybe if Aeolus showed up he could have controlled the wind a little bit better,but he wasn't available that day to show up on the set, and I heard he only shows up to work with Sylvester Stallone when he is filming in a jungle.
Yes clearly there is a breeze, but there is no magic solution for that. Maybe a more expensive blimp or dead cat or something might help.

A bit about ADR:
But seriously thats what I am talking about(being misguided etc). Doing ADR in certain situations just comes with the territory, if need be(I dont think it absolutely needs it in this case at all). They would not blink an eye at that, just par for the course of shooting science fiction or action movies or even some non action movies too etc.

And ADR need not be expensive for an indie too. There are many cheap options. You can simply go to a quiet room and record wild lines, or watch a laptop while your doing it or go to a cheap studio. You can then use Vox align or plural eyes or do it manually etc.

And needing ADR does not necessarily mean that sound guy was bad.(far from it)(although it can be construed that way by certain people, or newbies who do not know any better, not putting down newbies,everyone needs to start some where) Hollywood and TV situations, where its of course done most.
The guys working there are obviously top notch.

Well I hope I get a fair shake, although I have some reason to be skeptical.
But looking for honest/in context answers. We will see

 

[rocksure]

OK everyone, here it is , for any one interested
http://vimeo.com/34989001
PWudding

I would categorize what you are hearing, as less than a rough cut, done by an unqualified sound mixer(there are still 4 or 5 bad NR lines too). In addition I am pretty certain there may be alternate takes to use, if needed, and some wild lines too. In other words, I believe after a proper mix you can really get a nice results here

In the scope of an indie budget and indie set, I think this is good to very good.
It cant be Hollywood quality without Hollywood money/ime as Bob said. True
Once again,one must be a little delusional to compare their indie movie to what they see on TV and Movie theaters. Of course strive to be the best tho.
I am not talking about any one in particular , just local film makers in general

Maybe if Aeolus showed up he could have controlled the wind a little bit better,but he wasn't available that day to show up on the set, and I heard he only shows up to work with Sylvester Stallone when he is filming in a jungle.
Yes clearly there is a breeze, but there is no magic solution for that. Maybe a more expensive blimp or dead cat or something might help.

A bit about ADR:
But seriously thats what I am talking about(being misguided etc). Doing ADR in certain situations just comes with the territory, if need be(I dont think it absolutely needs it in this case at all). They would not blink an eye at that, just par for the course of shooting science fiction or action movies or even some non action movies too etc.

And ADR need not be expensive for an indie too. There are many cheap options. You can simply go to a quiet room and record wild lines, or watch a laptop while your doing it or go to a cheap studio. You can then use Vox align or plural eyes or do it manually etc.

And needing ADR does not necessarily mean that sound guy was bad.(far from it)(although it can be construed that way by certain people, or newbies who do not know any better, not putting down newbies,everyone needs to start some where) Hollywood and TV situations, where its of course done most.
The guys working there are obviously top notch.

Well I hope I get a fair shake, although I have some reason to be skeptical.
But looking for honest/in context answers. We will see

Watched your new upload of the video. Definitely fixable, and probably not too hard to do. The wind in the trees is not drowning the voices and could be smoothed effectively. The worst bit is still the conversation based round the mirror. The one voice in that piece of dialogue needs to be ADR'ed at least I think.

 

[knightly]

The mirror conversation sounds as if it was aggressively Noise Reducted (is that a word?). Unless there's a motor or something in the background, you could probably dial that reduction back and contextualize what I assume is wind noise with the environmental sound bed.

The cuts themselves just need room tone under them to hide the cuts in the rest of the footage.

 

[rocksure]

The mirror conversation sounds as if it was aggressively Noise Reducted (is that a word?). Unless there's a motor or something in the background, you could probably dial that reduction back and contextualize what I assume is wind noise with the environmental sound bed.

The cuts themselves just need room tone under them to hide the cuts in the rest of the footage.

Yeah it definitely sounds like that section has been hit hard and poorly with noise reduction.........I mentioned that in one of my earlier posts. I can only guess that perhaps they did that because the wind was especially loud in that section, hence my thinking maybe to ADR there. But it would be nice to hear it without the noise reduction first.

 

[Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC]

We will get the environmental tone in the spring. I'll pull out the old shooting permits and go back to the park and film commission office for an extention for the shoot to go back to the original spots.

I was originally planning to have a TV editor go over the cut when it is more complete for pointers and insight. I've decided to have the big post audio house needs to also get involved. I'll show it to them and ask what we need to have them fix it for the next shoot and explain the situation with our actress from Serbia.

The production will be gone over soup to nuts by people who work at the standards this production needs to be at before it is ready for NATPE and the TV studios.

I had to take care of VIP business today most of the day. Sorry about the radio silence.

 

[knightly]

Just piece together the tone from the dead air parts of the existing dialog you have. There's plenty of it there.

 

[rocksure]

Just piece together the tone from the dead air parts of the existing dialog you have. There's plenty of it there.

Yeah I agree, you probably don't need to go back there. You have quite abit already that can be blended together to make a general ambience tone, and I suspect you will have more in some of the footage you haven't included in the clip

 

[Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC]

We still have to be there for pickup footage and to reshoot 2/3s of a fight scene. So, while we are there we will record it for safety.

 

[Alcove Audio]

Well, let's see, where to start...

It is good to know history, but things change, workflow changes, and members here are trying to learn etiquette and workflow about the sets of 2012, not 85 years ago.

Now, you specifically asked:

can you cite any specific references about your examples of the sound mixer was given the power to yell "Cut!" before WW2

So I gave you one example from history, which is what you requested. I also referred you to the POST article about Tarrantino as an example of how sound should be approached in the digital age.

The Murch article was a response to an ongoing discussion about the way that modern filmmakers have relegated sound to an afterthought and not as an integral part of the filmmaking process, and that relegating sound to a secondary role can be detrimental to the final product. As an audio editor and a film editor - and Murch has won awards as both - he is in a position to make such a case. BTW, have you noticed that prior to WWII the sound folks were listed above the line in the opening credits, but after WWII started showing up more and more only in the end credits.

You see, all this history does have a purpose. Yes, protocols change, and for many different and varied reasons, but the basics stay the same. Prior to WWII recording equipment was quite expensive, quite bulky, and required a great deal of expertise to operate properly. During WWII filmmaking changed in some very subtle ways; materiél priorities meant that a lot of things were allowed to "slide" during the filmmaking process, especially audio. A lot more ADR was done, which also meant more Foley work (good 'ol Jack Foley, but that's another story.) War research caused quite a few changes in post WWII filmmaking. The cost of color film dropped considerably, lightweight heavy-duty plastics made equipment lighter, and on and on. Filmmaking on location became a much easier proposition, but working on location presented new issues that needed to be addressed. But takes were still limited to the length of a film or audio reel, and equipment was still subject to the mechanical foibles. Even when DAT machines appeared in the 1980's, although more reliable than reel to reel (once they got the bugs out), they were still mechanical devices and subject to mechanical problems.

In the digital age the problems have become quite a bit different, especially at the low budget level. Mechanical problems are very rare, but now we have technological ones - wireless systems, heavy battery drainage, etc. So we still may have the rare but real disaster that will call for the interruption of a take; other issues are addressed as they always were with notes on the audio log and notification of the powers that be.

You also seem to want to ascribe to me statements that I never made, or at least to twist them to your own liking. So let me sum up:

A good PSM will definitely ask for a cut if audio disaster happens - that's only common sense. Otherwise notes are kept on the audio log sheet and the PSM then decides if the sonic events that occurred during the take merit the attention of the 1st AD or director after the take has been completed.

Back when I was an audio assistant/wrangler there was one "catastrophe" that interrupted a take - the DAT machine swallowed the DAT tape during a take. This obviously calls for suspending the take. Otherwise all other issues were noted before the take started (plane, sirens, power tools, etc.), or notes were taken and discussed afterwards. When I worked as a boom-op or PSM, or had to do both, the sound of the entire production was upon my shoulders and I was the one who had to make the call. I personally never had to interrupt a take, but had to delay a fair number due to loud noises in the environment, or had to call for an additional sound take or dialog wilds - not that my advice was always heeded. As I had previously mentioned there are a lot of compromises that are made in low/no/mini/micro budget filmmaking for just that reason - lack of budget and its concurrent lack of time. Unfortunately a very large percentage of low/no/mini/micro filmmakers short sound as a first resort assuming that it can be fixed later, only to find it even more difficult and expensive to fix things in audio post.

Now, on to your own work... Considering your situation and the gear you were using - Nice Job!!! As I said, I could definitely work with the production sound you recorded and smooth it out into a very acceptable dialog track. As to MDM/Mikes comments about your work he still has a great deal to learn about limits of production sound, especially on a low/no/mini/micro budget, and what can be accomplished audio post. He also has neither the tools nor the knowledge and experience to know how to make it work on his own.

Now, as to tossing "Uninformed" and "Misguided" back in your face perhaps I was a little out of line, but like most teachers I can be a bit harsh with my comments to garner attention to a situation that needs to be addressed. Being diplomatic, even in defense of your own work, is a skill that we all need to acquire and adhere to.