Here is something you might want to watch. It's what we've been discussing , sort of. An animator made a film, sold it to a d list network, and he made about 300k. I watched it, and ........ it's not very good. But the point is he made it into film history, and got paid a bit.
misc Are short films the least respected form of art?
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Here is something you might want to watch. It's what we've been discussing , sort of. An animator made a film, sold it to a d list network, and he made about 300k. I watched it, and ........ it's not very good. But the point is he made it into film history, and got paid a bit.
A lot of the streamers have their own rating systems. On Amazon, both my features say "16+" as the audience. And on TubiTV, they're listed as "MA" (mature).
16+ actually sounds great. The big issue for marketing R rated stuff has always been that 15-25 year olds actually watch and buy more movies than anyone else, and those 2 extra years could end up being the difference between profit and loss. MA is not a good rating for broad viewership, but I think after they are 18 people just disregard ratings. Probably before that really. I think I managed to obtain a copy of "Aliens" when I was 8 or so, and watch it while my parents were gone, lol. Maybe I shouldn't have. I seem to remember that G.I Joe never seemed quite as intense after that.
I guess it helps if you're Phil Tippett, an Academy award winning animator from Star Wars, Jurassic Park, RoboCop, StarShip Troopers and beyond. That's his film.
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I started a thread on how there are almost no iconic short films, aside from the Twillight Zone episodes. The conclusion of that thread was that, even if short films were iconic decades ago, they are no longer so, because society is moving so fast. With that in mind, I understand that a Youtube producer can make a comfortable living, if he gets enough clicks, but, like every other medium, most will not make it to mogul or iconic status, especially in this day and age.
As for famous Youtube people, Felicia Day used to be prominent, but I don't know if she has done anything iconic lately. So, as I said, fame is fleeting, and fortune, if you do get it, can also be fleeting.
As for famous Youtube people, Felicia Day used to be prominent, but I don't know if she has done anything iconic lately. So, as I said, fame is fleeting, and fortune, if you do get it, can also be fleeting.
My dad took me to see the Exorcist at the theater when I was 9. Talk about messing with a kid's mind..
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Ahh, the good old days, when someone like you or I could just build a toy spaceship, do some stop frame animation and end up at the Oscars. I bet Ray Harryhausen had a pretty great life.I guess it helps if you're Phil Tippett, an Academy award winning animator from Star Wars, Jurassic Park, RoboCop, StarShip Troopers and beyond. That's his film.
I'm sure his status helped him get a meeting a bit easier, but I think the door is still open for animated features, even in this day.
Ultimately, it's rarity that has suffered across most genres, and using horror as an example, a network like shudder literally doesn't have time to watch 10% of the movies people tie to a rock and throw over the studio wall. In some of the posts above, you are talking about horror, and how it makes sense, and it's a good idea. That's exactly why it's not a good idea. Hear me out. Value is generated by rarity. Everyone in the world headed down the same thought path you are describing above. Because it's smart. Because it makes sense. Then lanes get overcrowded and blocked when volume is high. Nothing to do with your quality, nothing to do with profitability, just volume too high, channel overload. Maybe you can make a horror movie cheaper, maybe you can sell it easier, no arguments. However, let's talk ground truth.
Let's say I'm a middle range employee at a streaming network. It's my job to pick out which movies the network will buy for the next rollout. I have time to screen about 4 movies a day, and do the summaries and recommendations, and it's time for the next batch. So I look at some categories the network needs to fill. We need 40 horror movies this quarter, and we need 4 animated films. Ok, time to check the stack and que up some candidates. Let's see, I've got 1316 live action horror films marked micro budget, 202 marked Indie, 12 marked "real indie" (that's 4 million+) and the studio heads personally handle deals above that level, so I don't have to. Ok, moving on to animation. We're not Disney, so no pixar, no DreamWorks, no Lucasfilm, etc. We need these 4 animated products, and we're locked out of over 90% of animation produced worldwide. Let's take a look at the stack. Ok, so we've got 7 animated feature films available this quarter........ I hope at least 4 of them are baseline competent.
Do you see my point? Those numbers are guesses, but they are educated guesses. Animated feature films are still quite rare, and there are a lot of networks looking for content. I think the poor returns from some drive investors away, but it's not real, meaning that the loss is artificial at some step, like all Hollywood math. I see them take take 10 million in investment to animate a 90 minute movie with todays tools, and then they make 4 back and say everyone lost money. But what happened is that the studio fleeced the investors for 6 million through a tapestry of white lies and smiling handshakes. It's not how it's supposed to work. There are people out there that could have made this same film for 800k, and it would have made a great profit. Once the investors were in, they declared that every "security file data backup oversight manager" must be paid 120k a year plus benefits. (that's a college frat brother of the guy running the studio, who drags folders onto backup drives and waits for the status bar. --- Not a made up example, I've seen this in real life and talked to people that did it.) After everyone at the company got paid top dollar in advance, and the movie didn't make enough to cover it, it was deemed a fiscal loss. I doubt anyone ever thought about how it would effect other studios when trying to raise investment.
IF you could find good people that worked hard and were honest with each other and investors, you could have a predictable win. It's just so incredibly hard to find that now. I think people have outright forgotten how easy it is to actually just be authentic about things. We're all so practiced as a society at saying what we think will lead to some outcome. Sometimes you see scenes in movies where someone is unguarded and honest, and the other character looks at them, and says "Oh, you poor fool" as though being honest or extending trust is the action of a moron. I understand what's happening there, but I still feel like I'm looking at a mis calibrated world, where a person could "forget" to be dishonest, when it was expected of them. I've also seen that in real life.
Something tells me that you haven't been watching the same YouTube as I have! Most especially since the pandemic lockdowns, I have been astonished at the willingness of the YouTube audience en masse to throw money at their 15" screen, week after week after week. People who sit down (wherever) to watch this week's première, knowing that they can interact with each other and members of the crew.
On the flip side, in relatively recent times, I've so often PAID MONEY to watch some pretty desperate "art" in cinemas that I now need a damn good reason to risk spoiling a night out by going to such a place in the future.
Again, it comes across as a form of snobbery (which I've seen in paint-on-canvas artist acquaintances too, FWIW): I've spent thousands of hours and invested all my emotional energy into this, so it's worth it and people should appreciate that! Maybe, but there's still precious little difference between 15-minutes of footage produced for the cinema and 15 minutes produced for straight-to-YouTube. In fact, it could be argued that the YouTubers are being more true to the creative writing process, because they invariably write about what you know - day after day after day ...
Well, this entire thread has been very depressing, but it just goes to enforce what others have said in the past; make movies because you love it, not because you think you're going to make money, 'cause you probably aren't.
I know a lunatic in South Africa who makes some really good shorts and long format serials. I mean, this guy has true talent. He's mostly a one man show with some incidental help from the locals from time to time. He writes, produces, acts, does all the post work - and it's good! He sometimes puts his stuff on Youtube but the views are never greater than a hundred or so, and he doesn't care. He only makes movies because he wants to. To be honest, even if he did promote his work better he probably wouldn't do much better simply because his work isn't like everyone else's. I think it would confuse people. Pretty much everyone else is scooping from the same tub of crap then decorating their scoopful in a vane effort to make it look new and special when it isn't. Indies use to be about making something new and special. Now, I think the majority are simply trying to emulate what they see the pro's doing. It's actually been that way for decades.
I just had an epiphany. The Indie market dried up due to the gradual, yet deliberate, decline in DVDs and Blu-rays sales. Indies have almost no place to show their stuff except on the Internet, lost in an endless sea with others. Mixed in with clips of cats eating potato chips and gym fails where the guy drops the weights on his head.... or my favorite; 2 hours of people slipping on the ice.. On the other hand, what did indies do with the opportunity that the video revolution afforded them? They churned out crap. Uninspired crap. Nothing new, nothing thought provoking or even mildly interesting. It takes a certain kind of person to be able to finish a feature length movie. It's quite a feat. Too bad not many of them, if any at all, used that ability to show the industry that they had something to offer besides more of the same.
I know a lunatic in South Africa who makes some really good shorts and long format serials. I mean, this guy has true talent. He's mostly a one man show with some incidental help from the locals from time to time. He writes, produces, acts, does all the post work - and it's good! He sometimes puts his stuff on Youtube but the views are never greater than a hundred or so, and he doesn't care. He only makes movies because he wants to. To be honest, even if he did promote his work better he probably wouldn't do much better simply because his work isn't like everyone else's. I think it would confuse people. Pretty much everyone else is scooping from the same tub of crap then decorating their scoopful in a vane effort to make it look new and special when it isn't. Indies use to be about making something new and special. Now, I think the majority are simply trying to emulate what they see the pro's doing. It's actually been that way for decades.
I just had an epiphany. The Indie market dried up due to the gradual, yet deliberate, decline in DVDs and Blu-rays sales. Indies have almost no place to show their stuff except on the Internet, lost in an endless sea with others. Mixed in with clips of cats eating potato chips and gym fails where the guy drops the weights on his head.... or my favorite; 2 hours of people slipping on the ice.. On the other hand, what did indies do with the opportunity that the video revolution afforded them? They churned out crap. Uninspired crap. Nothing new, nothing thought provoking or even mildly interesting. It takes a certain kind of person to be able to finish a feature length movie. It's quite a feat. Too bad not many of them, if any at all, used that ability to show the industry that they had something to offer besides more of the same.
This 100%.
Of course that applies to anyone who decides to be an artist, a novelist, a sculpture...whatever. Some will make it big. Most won't.
So you damn well better love it.
You're the only person I've ever heard of in my life that pays equal respect to youtube content and movies in theatres.
If I told someone my new movie is out in theatres!!! and if I told someone my new movie is uploaded to youtube!! the reactions I will get and the level of respect I will recieve are completely dramatically different. You must be one in a billion.
I agree that the situation is not great for disenfranchised content creators right now.
There is no need to get depressed about it, though I do on a regular basis. Rational or not, it simply doesn't improve your chances any. I do my best work on days of optimism, as misguided as it may or may not be.
I think I've dropped just about enough truth bombs for one thread, so here's some truth that isn't depressing.
Winning isn't about not getting knocked down, it's about how many times you get back up. There's a world of people out there that have already decided your not going to make it. As soon as you start agreeing with them, you've proved them right.
Fight the odds, fight your own ego, fight preconceptions, find new paths, don't look back, and every time depression knocks you down, you need to come back up swinging. It's tough out there now, so get going, and make that film.
Lastly, in a final stab at pushing this point, I often tell a story of the first lesson I learned in Silicon Valley.
I'd just arrived, and was talking to other tech CEOs at lunch. I explained how I was going to keep 100% of my company stock, because it was going to be worth a lot when the product launched. He said "that's stupid", and I was of course offended. I know what I'm doing, what's this guy talking about. Does he know that I got the highest SAT scores in my city? The nerve of this guy. He explained.
He said "every day people come here to Mountain View, to become a tech millionaire, and they say what you just said. Then they faceplant and leave with nothing. Here's the math. Would you rather own 100% of a company worth 100 grand, or 10% of a company worth 5 million?"
Not having the maturity to temper my ego at that young age, I replied "well, at least if I owned it, I'd have control, and couldn't get voted out of my own company" He smiled, and took a drink.
He said "I sold off 60% of my company, split profits with my team, and I did get pushed out of my company" I thought for a moment that he was making my point for me, and felt a surge of valediction, feeding my inebriated ego.
I asked "So what happened?"
He said "They bought me out, kicked me out, and paid me a severance equal to about twice what the company was worth before I took on the other investors and crew. After that, instead of an idea that I thought was worth money, I had several million dollars. So I started my own company with that money, and now I provide a living for 30 of my friends. We just added dental insurance this month."
And he went on with this boring story about the dental insurance for several beers, but I had quit listening, because I was deep in thought about how this guy had outwitted me and gained control of his life, in a way that my thinking hadn't allowed.
Just for no reason, here's a video, where I'm sitting in that same bar where the conversation took place, a few years later, testing out the RED for the first time. It's about 2 minutes in.
There is no need to get depressed about it, though I do on a regular basis. Rational or not, it simply doesn't improve your chances any. I do my best work on days of optimism, as misguided as it may or may not be.
I think I've dropped just about enough truth bombs for one thread, so here's some truth that isn't depressing.
Winning isn't about not getting knocked down, it's about how many times you get back up. There's a world of people out there that have already decided your not going to make it. As soon as you start agreeing with them, you've proved them right.
Fight the odds, fight your own ego, fight preconceptions, find new paths, don't look back, and every time depression knocks you down, you need to come back up swinging. It's tough out there now, so get going, and make that film.
Lastly, in a final stab at pushing this point, I often tell a story of the first lesson I learned in Silicon Valley.
I'd just arrived, and was talking to other tech CEOs at lunch. I explained how I was going to keep 100% of my company stock, because it was going to be worth a lot when the product launched. He said "that's stupid", and I was of course offended. I know what I'm doing, what's this guy talking about. Does he know that I got the highest SAT scores in my city? The nerve of this guy. He explained.
He said "every day people come here to Mountain View, to become a tech millionaire, and they say what you just said. Then they faceplant and leave with nothing. Here's the math. Would you rather own 100% of a company worth 100 grand, or 10% of a company worth 5 million?"
Not having the maturity to temper my ego at that young age, I replied "well, at least if I owned it, I'd have control, and couldn't get voted out of my own company" He smiled, and took a drink.
He said "I sold off 60% of my company, split profits with my team, and I did get pushed out of my company" I thought for a moment that he was making my point for me, and felt a surge of valediction, feeding my inebriated ego.
I asked "So what happened?"
He said "They bought me out, kicked me out, and paid me a severance equal to about twice what the company was worth before I took on the other investors and crew. After that, instead of an idea that I thought was worth money, I had several million dollars. So I started my own company with that money, and now I provide a living for 30 of my friends. We just added dental insurance this month."
And he went on with this boring story about the dental insurance for several beers, but I had quit listening, because I was deep in thought about how this guy had outwitted me and gained control of his life, in a way that my thinking hadn't allowed.
Just for no reason, here's a video, where I'm sitting in that same bar where the conversation took place, a few years later, testing out the RED for the first time. It's about 2 minutes in.
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You're right. It's about attitude, but not ours.
I know one guy on this board who has been making movies consistently since I met him decades ago. Short films, Features, Tutorials, just for fun films.... You name it. He keeps making them. Nothing stops him. He's an Indie film making machine. I don't think I've ever heard him complain about anything. People don't show up for the shoot? Have someone else fill in. The creature looked like crap- I'll fix in in post. The economy sucks? so what. Roll camera,, Roll sound... None of it matters to this guy.
So who's happier? The guys who want to make something significant or the guy who doesn't care and keeps on making movies, no matter what?
I know one guy on this board who has been making movies consistently since I met him decades ago. Short films, Features, Tutorials, just for fun films.... You name it. He keeps making them. Nothing stops him. He's an Indie film making machine. I don't think I've ever heard him complain about anything. People don't show up for the shoot? Have someone else fill in. The creature looked like crap- I'll fix in in post. The economy sucks? so what. Roll camera,, Roll sound... None of it matters to this guy.
So who's happier? The guys who want to make something significant or the guy who doesn't care and keeps on making movies, no matter what?
I think that depends on the person, and on the goal. I don't offer myself the luxury of labeling losses as wins. It makes things too easy. I do know people that do that and find happiness, and I hold them no ill will.
Happiness wasn't all about art to me. It was to be a package deal, one that came with the pride of creating something I could share with others, making a contribution to the entertainment fabric that served as a common ground, uniting millions of people with a shared gasp as the death star exploded. It was supposed to fund the purchase of a home, pay for a family and kids, and leave a legacy that inspired future people to keep finding ways to brighten the lives of others, whether that came in the form of scaring them, or making them think, or just introducing them to interesting characters. I won't really be happy until all of that happens, and the clock is ticking.
I'm not yet satisfied with what I've achieved, and when I am, it should look something like this. It wouldn't be a picture of my apex SFX shot, with my name in giant letters, It would be a picture of all the friends I'd helped make it through life in the process. That's the real win for me.
You ask which person is happier, the person who does something substantial, or the person who quits caring about success. I'd say the person who does something substantial. An illusion can only bring one person happiness, but something of substance can spread happiness to others, and in the end, the best moments in life come from knowing you made a difference.
This sentiment reminds me of the way I view people who love watching NFL football on TV. They love it. I mean, they live for it. They are the ones who hoot and holler in front of the tv when their team scores. They identify with the team. They know all about the players....... What a passive way to spend your life. These couch potatoes have nothing but their sports teams. Nothing to look forward to except the next home game or the next game on the tube. They invite other couch potatoes over to hoot and holler at the screen with them... What a waste.................... I sometime wish I was one of them. They seem so much more fulfilled that I. For a few hours a day during football season, they are happy. Do I want to be like them? NO WAY, but they do seem happy... And who's to say what happiness is anyway? One man's happiness is another man's failure.
Michael Jackson; the king of pop. The most exciting entertainer of the 80s and most of the 90s. His album, Thriller - the number one album of all times! (I don't know if it still is) .. It was widely reported that he was never content with his achievements. He could not come to terms with the fact that Thriller was his professional apex and that he could never go higher. It reportedly tormented him.
What is success? What is happiness? What is love? Who knows?
and who are those people in the picture you posted. I can't read what's on their t-shirts. Is that you in the front with his arms crossed?
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Is there a difference? I can't imagine someone thinking their work was insignificant.
There it is again: lumping all videos published to YouTube together and treating the whole lot of them with the disrespect implied by the title of this thread. Just because YT is stuffed full of the crappiest clickbait and unwatchable FPV doesn't mean that a film-maker using the best cameras, lighting, sound gear and actors he/she can get hold of isn't producing something worthy of being shown in a cinema. Chances are, though, that it's damn near impossible for such a creator to get their work accepted for distribution because the vast majority of cinemas are only interested in showing as many blockbusting box-office hits as possible - regardless of the quality or originality of that material.
One of the trends I've noticed in the YT channels that I follow - especially those with associated Patreon accounts - is that they regularly choose to invest the funds they receive into the purchase of better lights, better sound gear and better camera gear. So regardless of what measure of respect your hypothetical "someone" might express if you were to tell them that you'd got a short movie onto a cinema screen (hypothetically?) these film-makers are generating actual hard-cash respect from their audience, and continually improving their game.