Am I asking too much of my DP?

H

harmonica44

Since I don't have permission to light at night I have to shoot with a 1.4 lens without light. It's a chase sequence I want to finish for my first short. I have one shoot date left and hope to get it right this time. Now when shooting at night with a 1.4 my DP has to constantly pull the focus everytime an actor moves a few inches. Since this is during a chase, that means she will have to pull focus, every third of a second or less, pretty fast while running as well.

My DP cannot do it so far, and she says that asking one to do so is unreasonable. How do other focus pullers do it? I don't want to be unreasonable or anything, but don't know the way to do it. Thanks for the advice.
 
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Well I would have to reshoot a LOT though if I am too make the rest of the night scenes day. What about the scenes that are inside the cars? Those were at night, and I lit the cars while shooting. I can't rewrite the script so that it's all day, cause all the night scenes are shot already, and all that's left to redo, is at night too. I would have to reshoot almost everything, if I switched it to take place during the day.

So I can substitute day and make it look like night. But if I reshoot the outdoor scenes at night, such as that one with the car there, the streetlights, and car lights will not be turned on. So it won't look much like night therefore, if I make it darker in after effects, or whatever I am suppose to do, to make it look like night. Also if I do the day for night thing in AE, is it okay to still keep the scenes at night that are inside the car, and have it match?
 
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I wouldn't worry about all of that. If you are deep enough that making changes means go back and re-doing stuff, your time is probably better spent on finishing.

Just go wider and father away on the problematic shots, break them up as much as possible to decrease the change in distance/movement within a given take. If you are trying to get close-ups during the action, shoot them is separate setups and then cut them in.

Do the best you can with your available resources, finish the film, and move on to the next.
 
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Thanks I will, but I don't even know how to finish it now, since I don't know how to fix these night scenes. Can I keep the stuff shot inside the cars at night but have the outside be day, and make them look the same? I mean one of the actors who was in the cars only had that scene, and I he will not be available to come to the next shoot date probably, since I told him that his part is done. So I would have to find somebody else in time for the next shoot if that's the case, and I need to redo that part as well.

Or I could just keep all the stuff I have, and post some adds online to hire an AE expert to make all this match, and rotoscope a lot of it, such as the sky. But not sure if there are any AE experts that advanced where I live, if it can be done, from what I shot.

Perhaps I could show everyone an edit of the film without the AE work done, and then wait for an AE person to come along, whenever that will be. If AE cannot help me, how about if I just reshoot the day shots, at night, with a work light attached to the top of my camera pointing at the actors, such as that back alley scene. It will look like home video lighting, but it's better than having to reshoot all the night scenes for day, since that means reshooting everything almost.
 
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Harmonica ... just for grins, I downloaded your clip and played w/ it real quick like to see what I could do. There is more and better that could be done. I used Cinelerra in Linux to do some adjustments. Hope you do not mind.

This was a super quick edit and I did not even render it first time, I just used screen capture to collect the footage as I played it in my NLE.
A gifted editor can work w/ this and get it to match reasonably well. The day scene was somewhat easy in that the guys did not walk where the sky was behind them, that made it easier for me in this take.

I added a mask real quick where the sky was and darkened it and played w the settings in the histogram. I then lowered the brightness on the other elements and lowered saturation and played w/ the histogram overall as well

One could even add a light on the house and have the guys walk into the light if ya cared to..


GOOD LUCK !! Keep shooting and learning, you will grow thru each obstacle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbrTy_m35n0
 
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IndieBudget said:
Harmonica ... just for grins, I downloaded your clip and played w/ it real quick like to see what I could do. There is more and better that could be done. I used Cinelerra in Linux to do some adjustments. Hope you do not mind.

This was a super quick edit and I did not even render it first time, I just used screen capture to collect the footage as I played it in my NLE.
A gifted editor can work w/ this and get it to match reasonably well. The day scene was somewhat easy in that the guys did not walk where the sky was behind them, that made it easier for me in this take.

I added a mask real quick where the sky was and darkened it and played w the settings in the histogram. I then lowered the brightness on the other elements and lowered saturation and played w/ the histogram overall as well

One could even add a light on the house and have the guys walk into the light if ya cared to..


GOOD LUCK !! Keep shooting and learning, you will grow thru each obstacle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbrTy_m35n0
Click to expand...


:clap:
 
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No, I don't mind. I didn't know you could download from youtube, but no problem. Thanks! I see that it matches pretty good! If I apply this similar technique to my other day for night scenes, that would really save my ass! There are only two more day for night substitute scenes, and the rest is all shot at night. So only having to reshoot or tweak two, is better than having to reshoot almost all the rest! I don't have those two programs or plug ins, but I bet this same thing can be done on AE I am guessing? I guess I should keep these three day for night shots, then and just redo a couple of indoor shots, I have to redo anyway, where the lighting doesn't match. But if I just have to redo those, than that will go a lot quicker and easier, since they are in the same location.

I have a question though. It makes sense in the first night shot, that there is yellow light since that is the streetlight. However, where is the yellow light suppose to be coming from in the alley? It will help me judge what to do with the rest of the alley scenes.
 
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harmonica44 said:
No, I don't mind. I didn't know you could download from youtube,
Click to expand...

I used Download Helper a plugin for Firefox browser to DL the vid.

All I really did was play w/ the color, brightness, saturation and add a mask to allow me to make the sky near black.

Im not running Windoze or a Mac, Im a freak in that Im running Ubuntu Linux for my Operating System so Im using Cinlerra to edit my stuff. You can do the simple adjustments I did with most any video editor. It just takes some time, skill and a lot of repetition.

Yes you can add elements to a shot like lights or whatever, just takes some practice to develop the skills. Masking, Compositing and Color Correction are the tools that can help sell things in post. When you get good exposure when shooting, it allows for SOOOOO much more magic in your post production. Proper lighting and exposure will allow one to easily do things like Day for Night, Color Correction and the like. Point is you do not want anything too dark or too light in the video, that way you will have TONS more latitude in the editing phase.





.
 
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On the mac, "MPEGStreamclip" is your friend for that sort of thing. :)

As for the D4N, nice work IB! You may want to desaturate your greens a little bit in the darks and could probably push the yellows a bit more toward red in the highlights to match the sodium light colors in the preceeding shot... but nice base to work from :)
 
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Thanks for the tips! It looks like a good match, at least I think it's good enough. What do you guys think? A keeper? I wanted blue moonlight for the alleyway though, but if yellow helps sell it then of course, I will go with that. After the alley though, the guys go another ext. location that is a little more secluded. Should I have yellow there too? As long as the audience buys it even though their are no lights nearby in the setting.
 
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Harmonica ...One can easily adjust the colors so you can paint each shot the way you want. Get creative and have the colors change moods, change the music along with it to build your moments up. GOOD LUCK !
 
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You can certainly do it in blue if that's what you want... this is your film... at some point, you will need to make some decisions on your own. You seem very indecisive about these things. I'm certain alot of it is that you've entered the phase of the production you're least comfortable with... my advice is to know what you want it to look like, then make that happen... if you encounter a problem, figure out how to either fix it as a specific solution rather than a general one (as you've seen posting a small clip will get people showing you what's possible) or figure out how you can get the problems mitigated to get near your original vision.

Opportunities to find solutions, not problems.
 
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If time wasn't an issue, you could shoot it during dusk (during a couple of days), just after the sun has set. You'll have 45 minutes of blue skies and light to close aperture a bit more. Shoot the shots that need the most depth of field first: light decreases fast.

Whatever you do: good luck!
 
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Yes, you're right I'll have to learn to make decisions on my own. It's just if people looking to work with me in the future, look at my stuff, I am worried, since a lot of people in the business tend to nit pick about certain things and certain approaches. It's hard to know what's acceptable, and what's not. But thanks. Actually I think I will stick with the yellow actually, it's grown on me. I might want to take out the green of the sky in the background though. Thanks for the tips. I actually shot the opening shot at 3400 ISO, just to get it bright enough at night. I was told this was a no no, but it looks fine to me, but that doesn't mean it would look fine to the "judges".
 
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Let them judge your final effort, not the intermediate steps :) This forum exists so you can get answers to questions and share your experiences (and you've given people searching for answers TONS of google fodder :) )... but I would worry less and trust that if you had the confidence to start the project that you at one time had a vision in your head... serve that vision. If the craft doesn't quite meet that vision, figure out the common ground between the two.

Make it happen, as you've now realized... the project is you. Lots of other people helping, but if you stop moving forward, no one will pick up where you leave off -- ever forward!
 
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Harmonica. Below is the color palette I shall be looking to use in my current project. I am building a miniature set and will have my talent put into it using greenscreen. The darkest color will be my "blacks" and the lightest color will be my "whites" or as close as I can get so I can then play w/ the colors in post. I will desaturate the colors and dull them to give a bleak look.

I will prolly add some green to the overall color in post to give it a cooler blue color as opposed to a warmer blue ( closer to purple ) .

I will have some red and oranges as contrasting colors to highlight a few items. Im using the color wheel nad color theory to plan my coloring attack. I will keep close to a cool blue in most colors and have orange colors as contrasting colors which are opposite on the color wheel. I will post a vid in a new thread detailing my mini set design to show what Im up to.

blu2.png


ColorTheoryMixture.jpg




.
 
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Okay thanks I have learned quite a bit of color grading since then. I like adding blue in post overall, and some red for some scenes.

Well I found a focus puller who can make it happen, if he's going to do it. He said he can focus pull the fight/chase I want to do. But he asked me something which I do not know what I should do. He can only keep 1-2 inches of focus on an actor since it's such a wide aperture.

So he asked me what part of the actor I want in focus. Like if he is flung into a wall, should the back of his head be in focus, or the back of his jacket instead, since the audience might see the jacket primarily in the quick cut? Not sure how to decide something like that. Also if an actor decides to turn there head spontaneously while performing, his eyes could very well go out of focus as he turns, in which case I need to decide if his eyes should remain in focus during, the turn, of if the side of his head should be, since that's what's closet to the camera.

He says that if I can get the actors not to make any spontaneous head turns, he can keep the focus on the eyes the whole time. But not sure what to do on shots, where you don't see the eyes, and I have to pick which 1-2 inches of the head should be in focus, or their jacket instead. What looks the most professional...
 
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I'd say it depends on a number of things:

What format (sensor size), what focal length, what type of lens, and what support equipment do you have.

On 16mm sensor, you're going to get away with a lot more than say S35.

If you had say, a Bartech with a wireless mon setup, your Focus Puller shouldn't have too much issue keeping eyes in focus all the time, though would obviously be harder with still lenses where a slight turn can be 2' of difference. With a wider lens, you'll get much more depth of field. Assuming you're on a 7D, at 7' distance on a 35mm lens set to 1.4, your DOF is 8". 85mm @7', f/1.4, is DOF of 1".
So, keeping wider will help.

Also, I generally find it somewhat imperative to pull off a monitor when using badly marked still lenses for a whole bevy of reasons. In general, I'm not a fan of pulling off a monitor for a whole lot of reasons that don't really pertain to this discussion, but it's somewhat necessary using badly marked (cheaper) still lenses, or lenses that haven't been collimated correctly.

It's going to be easier if you have cinema style lenses on it, as your Focus Puller will actually have real witness markings, and can judge distances, and use marks to focus correctly. With a still lens, not only are the only witness markings ridiculous (like 1ft, 3ft, 5ft, 10ft, and infinity), but there's likr 5 degrees of rotation between each.

Personally, I tend to focus on the eyes as much as possible, and if we can't see the eyes, I'll focus on what the audience would be drawn to watch - unless the DP tells me differently. I'd probably focus on the back of someone's head, simply because it is the closest thing to their eyes that we can see, and the most likely thign for a viewer to focus on. Unless, of course, the DP wanted something else in focus, or if there was a significance of something else in the frame that should be in focus instead.

It's really up to you what you want in focus - what do you think is more natural? What do you think the audience should be watching?
 
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