Am I asking too much of my DP?

[harmonica44]

Since I don't have permission to light at night I have to shoot with a 1.4 lens without light. It's a chase sequence I want to finish for my first short. I have one shoot date left and hope to get it right this time. Now when shooting at night with a 1.4 my DP has to constantly pull the focus everytime an actor moves a few inches. Since this is during a chase, that means she will have to pull focus, every third of a second or less, pretty fast while running as well.

My DP cannot do it so far, and she says that asking one to do so is unreasonable. How do other focus pullers do it? I don't want to be unreasonable or anything, but don't know the way to do it. Thanks for the advice.

 

[harmonica44]

It's difficult to tell since I cannot think of one movie with a fight scene shot at 1.4. Have you seen any for examples? Plus there will probably be a few quick cuts that last no more than 8 frames, and I don't think the audience will have time to see what to focus on in 8 frames, but not sure. It depends on the DP I get, as to which cameras and lenses, one has the 7D now with a 1.4 35mm, the other 5D, with a 1.4 50mm, and one has really big movie cameras. It depends on who wants to do it, and will find out.

 

[chilipie]

It's difficult to tell since I cannot think of one movie with a fight scene shot at 1.4. Have you seen any for examples?

From what I've read, most of Fincher's The Social Network and Dragon Tattoo (both lensed by Jeff Cronenweth ASC) were shot on wide-open Master Primes at T1.3.

We used the ARRI Master Primes, and one of the reasons is that the widest aperture they have is a 1.3, which helps maintain shallow depth of field as a visual tool.

Source: http://www.creativeplanetnetwork.co...e-darkness-and-light-girl-dragon-tattoo/16614

 

[jax_rox]

From what I've read, most of Fincher's The Social Network and Dragon Tattoo (both lensed by Jeff Cronenweth ASC) were shot on wide-open Master Primes at T1.3.

This is somewhat correct, though I'd probably go as far to say that some of, rather than most of - at least in the case of Social Network. They talk about it a bit on the Blu-Ray BTS.

It's also important to keep in mind though, that on TSN, they had full camera crews, the cameras had cine tapes mounted on them, and the Focus Pullers were pulling on wireless Bartech's or Preston FIZ's.
Master Primes have LDS (Arri's version of the Cooke /i technology) so the Focus Puller literally has an HD monitor of the shot itself, and then in their hands they have a Preston FIZ with a little screen that shows the exact focal distance the lens is set to, the depth of field, and then also a readout from the Cine Tape. Makes it a hell of a lot easier than simply pulling by eye, trying to judge distances - but even that is easier than pulling off still lenses.

 

[chilipie]

This is somewhat correct, though I'd probably go as far to say that some of, rather than most of - at least in the case of Social Network. They talk about it a bit on the Blu-Ray BTS.

From the horse's mouth, so to speak…

We shot with the [T1.3] Master Primes wide open most of the time. When we went outside, which was rare, we had to really stack ND filters to get the exposure down and achieve a comfortable amount of depth-of-field.

http://www.theasc.com/ac_magazine/October2010/TheSocialNetwork/page1.php

It's also important to keep in mind though, that on TSN, they had full camera crews, the cameras had cine tapes mounted on them, and the Focus Pullers were pulling on wireless Bartech's or Preston FIZ's.

Exactly. Having Vermeer's paint brushes isn't going to turn you into a Dutch master; but nor would Vermeer produce his best work with wax crayons. The gear doesn't matter - except when it does.

 

[lightcameraction]

I haven't read the comments yet but just change the script.

Go for day for night or just do the chase at day .

Maybe kill your freakin baby and remove the scene from the short .

And yes in my opinion you are asking way too much .

 

[harmonica44]

Well I would have to find a DP who could do day for night then. I can't exactly eliminate this sequence in the script cause it would lead to plot holes. And it wouldn't make much sense for killers to break into someone's home to kill them in broad daylight, when all the neighbors could see. It just seems more convincing and more scary at night, which is what I am going for. Um I could try to find a DP who knows more about day for night I guess. But that would require a lot more post work, which I would have to find a good enough specialist on as well.

 

[viz]

What about shooting at night. Action happens through occasional pools of streetlight. Flashing past the 7/11 store? Momentary car headlights. Persuers could have flashlight(s). Use some battery powered lights. If no budget, pull some headlights and battery out of an old car. There will be lots of ways to get some light in there. I think you need to avoid having all your action litterally within a visually recognisable place. Can you stage it so that bits and pieces can be shot almost anywhere?


Cheers,
Gregg.

 

[harmonica44]

Yep for sure I am using my own lights, plus some 7 eleven type lights around stores. Both. But we still have to shoot at 1.4 for those lights to show up though. Well I guess I will just have a DP focus on the eyes as much as possible then while the characters are moving around. It's hard to picture, since I cannot recall any fight scenes shot at 1.4 or close.

 

[jax_rox]

On the topic of shooting day-for-night, it can certainly be done - you just need a DP who knows what he's doing, and also a colourist who knows what they're doing. It would help if you were shooting on something with a larger DR and higher compression rater than DSLR, but you work with what you've got.

As an example, here's a screenshot from something I shot on Alexa a couple months ago - I spent 10 minutes in Resolve and a more experienced colourist could certainly make it look like night. You could do it on a DSLR too, just that you'd introduce noise and banding issues..

I can't really remember, but I think this was shot with an ND3 or ND6 in, and aperture was set to ~T4 or T5.6. ISO at native 800.

Here's the original file with the Arri LogC to Rec709 LUT applied:

(Click for larger: http://i45.tinypic.com/1zclf7l.jpg)

Cropped to 2.39 to hide most of the sky, as I was playing around with a darker/nightish look (and sky's always a dead giveaway). I pulled the range in a bit, crushed the blacks a little, and pushed the mids and shadows a bit towards blue. I also desaturated the green:

(Click for larger: http://i47.tinypic.com/2nvqhy8.jpg)

And then here's closer to what I think the final grade will end up as. Again, de-saturated the greens, a lot more than I did for the 'darker' look. Darkened it a little, and pushed the mids a touch towards magenta. Maybe a little too much:

(Click for larger: http://i49.tinypic.com/312iijd.jpg)

Just an example of what you can potentially do. I'm not the world's most experienced colourist, but the images come up pretty decently. Someone a lot more experienced than I, could do it better and quicker.

As a reference, and in case anyone's interested, here's what the original LogC file looks liek:http://i50.tinypic.com/5akdoo.jpg

 

[TheArtist]

Did you do it on Adobe ? Two daus ago, I couldn't find how to desaturate a color and I was pretty sure it was possible.

 

[jax_rox]

Nah, the free version of Resolve. Never used Adobe, so can't help you out.

I'll also add that I don't personally like to shoot day-for-night exterior - I've done day-for-night interior, and even night-for-day interior, but exterior makes things that much harder.

However, as a quick grade in Resolve shows, it's certainly possible, though helps if you have decent equipment at your disposal.

I also shot a night-for-night scene recently, I'm going in on Friday for a prelim screening. I'll see if I can grab a screen shot or two and compare the difference between a graded day-for-night and a graded night-for-night.

 

[harmonica44]

Okay thanks. I am wanting to shoot on a street though, which makes it more difficult cause none of the streetlights are switched on. As well as any car that happens to pass by. I would have to get a specialist who can make all those lights turned on. I watched a tutorial on how they did it using sunlight, making the sun form shapes of street lamp light, but that would be quite a bit of post work. But I would have to find a DP who can shoot it that way in the first place, which I can look for.

 

[TheArtist]

Adding headlights to cars (and therefore street lamps) is easy.

Go to videocopilot.

 

[chilipie]

Okay thanks. I am wanting to shoot on a street though, which makes it more difficult cause none of the streetlights are switched on. As well as any car that happens to pass by. I would have to get a specialist who can make all those lights turned on. I watched a tutorial on how they did it using sunlight, making the sun form shapes of street lamp light, but that would be quite a bit of post work. But I would have to find a DP who can shoot it that way in the first place, which I can look for.

It's not fantastic, but here's some day for night work I did in After Effects a couple of years ago (including turning on street lights)…


(Click for larger.)

 

[knightly]

H44... if you can't pay to have the ideal on your set (which you can't), you have to come up with a creative solution. You probably won't get what you want in-camera... learn your post production tools or find someone who knows them.

You seem to be making some of the same mistakes I started with. Particularily, looking for technically perfection. You won't get it at your current budget level. Stop worrying about the technical stuff and concentrate on the story telling. Will your night scene work during the day?

You're being given tons of different ideas, but the continued questioning makes it seem as if the perfectly functional answers aren't the response you were expecting. If you'd tell us the answer you want to hear, we'd be glad to give it to you... but you'll be disappointed in the results.

Turn off the literal part of your brain and dig into the creative bit that wants to learn more... then feed that monster. If nothing else, watch through every tutorial on http://www.videocopilot.com ... learn what is possible with compositing tools - so you know how to look at your shots as you're planning them. Film Riot ( http://www.revision3.com/filmriot ) is another must watch from beginning to end. Red Giant TV puts out a bunch of great tutorials -- dig in so you have a huge toolbox to draw from. Most of the questions you're asking have been covered there over and over again.

The archives of indymogul as well have the same techniques at shoestring budgets.

 

[harmonica44]

Well I was told before that day for night is more complicated and I might as well just do night. Plus I was told for day for night you have to shoot at sunset only, which only gives about an hour of day, and I think the actor's would find that very annoying, and it would therefore take a lot longer to shoot. So I though that night under 1.4 and a good focus puller, was the solution.

 

[knightly]

Bright daylight = wider depth of field = easier to pull focus.

Doesn't have to be golden hour, just don't show the sky.

 

[harmonica44]

Well that would be tough since one part of a scene I want guy looking towards buildings at night. I would have turn all those building lights on. And not show the sky in the process.

 

[jax_rox]

Both shooting night-for-night, and shooting day-for-night has inherent issues, even when paying people.

Night-for-night, you have issues of how much light you need, what lenses you need, how wide open you need to be (and the inherent issues there for focus), what ISO you need to be at (and the inherent issues there for noise). Then you have the issues of call times and work times, and the fact that night shoots are hard. I've found night shoots tend to move slower than day shoots, especially once you hit about the 1am mark. Are you going to start at last light (say around 6pm) and force peopel to work until sunrise..? If not, are you going to have enough shot in that period of time to cut your scene together?

Shooting day-for-night means you can stop down, you can lower your ISO, you can give your actors and crew normal call times, you don't need as much light...
But then you have issues with the look - are you able to light it in such a way that you'd be able to grade it to look right in post? Are you in locations where you can easily hide the sky? Are you able to do the post work yourself? If not, do you have someone lined up to do it, who you know can definitely pull it off? Do you have a good enough Gaffer and DP team who are able to know sun movement and compensate for that? Do you have enough silk frames and similar equipment to soften hard sun shadows, or alternately are you willing to wait out for an overcast day? Are you able to find locations without street lamps, or shoot in a way that doesn't show them? Or are you able to 'turn them on' in post?

There's so many different things to think about - welcome to the world of filmmaking
My best tip: You won't get it perfect, so just make a decision and go out and shoot it. The best Directors are the best Directors because they are confident decision makers. They quickly weigh up the option in their head and make a decision about what they think is best. Now, with more experience, you're able to weigh up the potential consequences of an option better, but you still need to make the decision, and make it quick. There's no time on set to spend an hour faffing about trying to make a decision. Yes, sometimes you get it wrong. But that's all part of learning - you're not making a billion dollar film are you? Even the most experienced people make the wrong decisions sometimes, or if not the 'wrong' decision, just the decision that makes thing harder than they need to be.

Welcome to being a Director. Unless you've got all the money in the world, you'll never get 100% exactly perfect what your vision in your head is. But, you work with what you've got, you make some tough decisions, and you get it as close as possible.

I've posted up my really quick, rough 'day-for-night' grade, and I'll hopefully be able to grab a screen over the next couple days of the 'night-for-night' I shot (admittedly on an Alexa with HMIs, but still).
You should make an educated decision, knowing what is possible from both - but you do need to make a decision and stick to it. Whatever the outcome, you work with it and get is as good as you can.

 

[knightly]

Perfectly clear blue sky / sky replacement + Shoot the same building at night so you can see into the windows with them lit... then do a replacement there as well to make some of the windows look night timey.