A cheap, decent camera for starting out?

G

gibbo

Hello, I wasn't sure if I should have posted this in the Camera section or here, I went with here as it is a newbie asking a newbie question. Before you shoot me, I did perform a search but could not find anything specific to what I want to ask.

Basically what I want to do is get an el cheapo 720p camera for starting out, I want to make semi decent quality short films with it for practice until I can graduate to something bigger and better.

I figure there's no point going out and getting a $1000 camera just yet, as I have not even made a short film yet I would be wasting my money because by the time I'm ready to do it properly there will be a newer, cheaper model with better features available!

Anyhoo, I have been doing some reading and saw a few people recommend Flip for complete beginners starting out. I did some more reading which lead me to the canon sd 940 which apparently does better video and audio than the flip for the same or cheaper price, also I get a decent point and shoot camera as well! I am considering the Canon unless someone can recommend something else?

Obviously, my budget is around the $200 AUD mark.

Thanks alot!
 
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Yeah, hand held rig vs steady cam will at least allow you to focus during shooting..but you can work with it a bit.

For example, if you have a nice WIDE lens, you'll find that the infinity focus distance, the distance from the lens beyond which EVERYTHING is in focus, can be quite close, like 10 feet or so. That means just keep your hand held shots ( or even steady cam shots) at least 10 feet from the subject, and it will be in focus... of course this limits you to very wide framing, but it can be cool if you have things that are out of focus in the fore ground.. like moving through a crowd scene or something like that.
 
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wheatgrinder said:
Yeah, hand held rig vs steady cam will at least allow you to focus during shooting..but you can work with it a bit.

For example, if you have a nice WIDE lens, you'll find that the infinity focus distance, the distance from the lens beyond which EVERYTHING is in focus, can be quite close, like 10 feet or so. That means just keep your hand held shots ( or even steady cam shots) at least 10 feet from the subject, and it will be in focus... of course this limits you to very wide framing, but it can be cool if you have things that are out of focus in the fore ground.. like moving through a crowd scene or something like that.
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Sorry, I'm not sure I understand that completely :( (sorry, I'm still super newb status)

Another question:

I just wanted yo ask you guys... I'm getting the T2i very very soon.... just a question about the lenses if I may.

I can get it with the kit lens (18-55mm) for $766 AUD, or pay $990 ($224 AUD extra) and get it with the kit lens and a 55-250mm lens as well, seen here:
http://www.youshop247.com.au/store/product.php?productid=37331&cat=0&page=1

Or even a three lens kit (50mm f/1.8, 18-55mm and 55-250mm) for $1119:
http://www.youshop247.com.au/store/product.php?productid=38666&cat=0&page=2

My question is, is it worth paying the extra for the canon lenses? Or is it better to save it and put my money towards different lenses later on?
 
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A prime lens will come in very handy, because it will allow you to get the super-shallow depth of field that everyone is clamoring for. Additionally, you never know, you might find yourself in a situation in which you're shooting in very low light, and you'll want to drop that f-stop as low as possible.

I shot a feature primarily with the stock, but I was very happy to be able to use my friends' prime, when the occasion called for it.

I can't imagine very many occasions when you'll want something so telephoto. 50mm is about as far as you'll want to go, in most situations. Maybe you'll want 100mm, from time to time. For narrative work, I just can't imagine why you'd need 250mm, if not for a few rare exceptions.

In my opinion, a wide lens is crucial. I was just having this discussion in a different thread, with escher, and he pointed out how expensive a wide prime is. So, for this reason alone (considering that you have a budget), I think it's important to get the kit lens. On top of that, I think a 50mm prime will come in very handy.

So, if I were you, I'd buy the body, with kit lens. Then, in a seperate purchase, get a $100 50mm prime.
 
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Cracker Funk said:
A prime lens will come in very handy, because it will allow you to get the super-shallow depth of field that everyone is clamoring for. Additionally, you never know, you might find yourself in a situation in which you're shooting in very low light, and you'll want to drop that f-stop as low as possible.

I shot a feature primarily with the stock, but I was very happy to be able to use my friends' prime, when the occasion called for it.

I can't imagine very many occasions when you'll want something so telephoto. 50mm is about as far as you'll want to go, in most situations. Maybe you'll want 100mm, from time to time. For narrative work, I just can't imagine why you'd need 250mm, if not for a few rare exceptions.

In my opinion, a wide lens is crucial. I was just having this discussion in a different thread, with escher, and he pointed out how expensive a wide prime is. So, for this reason alone (considering that you have a budget), I think it's important to get the kit lens. On top of that, I think a 50mm prime will come in very handy.

So, if I were you, I'd buy the body, with kit lens. Then, in a seperate purchase, get a $100 50mm prime.
Click to expand...

That's good advice man! The more I think about it, it actually makes sense that I wouldn't need telephoto for a while, if ever!

Thanks again.

The hunt for a 550D begins!
 
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We just finished shooting a new short and had an 85mm on set, first time I've used one and I now love it. Way better for tight shots than a 50. If you can get two lenses, get a wide (something in the 20's)mm prime and an 85mm. If just one, the 50mm is a good compromise.

I don't want to sound super negative, but the 15-55mm kit lens is almost useless. Ok for some photos, but in movie mode it almost defeats the purpose of having a DSLR for video- nice lenses for cheap. I understand budget is an issue, but even the 50 1.8 is night and day better than the kit lens, and the mid range lenses (50 1.4, 28 1.8 and 85 1.8) are 10 times better than that... The L-Series glass.. Don't get me started :)

We couldn't budget to buy all the lenses we used on this last shoot, so we rented most of them. We do a big shoot every couple of months or so, so renting lenses costs way less than buying even one of the lenses.
 
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PaulGriffith said:
We just finished shooting a new short and had an 85mm on set, first time I've used one and I now love it. Way better for tight shots than a 50. If you can get two lenses, get a wide (something in the 20's)mm prime and an 85mm. If just one, the 50mm is a good compromise.

I don't want to sound super negative, but the 15-55mm kit lens is almost useless. Ok for some photos, but in movie mode it almost defeats the purpose of having a DSLR for video- nice lenses for cheap. I understand budget is an issue, but even the 50 1.8 is night and day better than the kit lens, and the mid range lenses (50 1.4, 28 1.8 and 85 1.8) are 10 times better than that... The L-Series glass.. Don't get me started :)

We couldn't budget to buy all the lenses we used on this last shoot, so we rented most of them. We do a big shoot every couple of months or so, so renting lenses costs way less than buying even one of the lenses.
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Thanks for the input Paul. Was that an 85mm fixed lens? Can you explain why the 85mm was so good and better than the 50mm?

I'm hoping to get the camera ASAP and I was sure of the kit lens and the 50mm on top of that.


Also, back to the audio questions I had before, I was thinking about it and trying my best to analyse conversation scenes in movies, could it be done like this:

Either have 3 cameras rolling all at once, or reshoot the same scene times and set the camera up in different positions each time.

Camera 1 is the male actor, camera 2 is the female actor and camera 3 is a wide shot of both of them. Each FULL line (ten miniblocks/hyphens) represents the entire length of a scene, for arguments sake we'll say that each hyphen/miniblock is 1 minute, so we have a 10 minute scene length all together:

Camera 1: ----------
Camera 2: ----------
Camera 3: ----------
Audio: ----------

Finished product after editing, I've decided on which parts I want to use so When i place all of the below together it will be a solid line again:

Camera 1: - - -- -
Camera 2: - - -
Camera 3: - -

EDIT: The forum doesnt show spaces properly, it's suppose to look like this:

apk3kp.jpg


So you can see, if they are all joined together it forms a solid line again!

Then, I just lay the audio over the top (assuming I use a clap board for syncing) and it should all match up!

I hope this makes sense to you guys, it does in my head...

!
 
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@gibbo You don't have to run three cameras at a time, but your theory is correct except it doesn't count for multiple takes or inserts. You can just use one camera and do another take in each position. Also, you may want to use the beginning from one take of a guy's tight shot and the end of another. For this reason, it's a good idea to sync audio first. Don't forget to shoot plenty of cutaways and inserts. Directorik has done an awesome job explaining this in some other posts recently.

@gibbo and indiebudget: I was using a few 7D's and we had a 24mm, 50mm, 85mm, 24-70 zoom (which we didn't use once) and a 400 mm that we used for a few special shots. The 85 was a fixed focal length, and on the 7 I guess it's really acting like a 136mm or so. It was beatiful and had a much more shallow depth of field. Plus we didn't have to be in the actor's face to get a tight.

We tried it on a shoulder rig and it's not good. To tight to keep steady, if it was handled the 24 and 50 worked way better. But for tripod/monopod/jib the 85 kicked butt.

It's a shame I'm learning all my focal lengths on a crop sensor, the whole game will change when I move to full frame haha. I guess that's the DP's job to worry over huh ;)
 
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gibbo said:
Either have 3 cameras rolling all at once, or reshoot the same scene times and set the camera up in different positions each time.
Click to expand...

One camera is the way it's almost always done.

You use one camera and shoot the scene from many different angles
many different times. Each time you move the camera it's called a
set up. You will do many set ups for a conversation.

Set up 1 would be the wide shot. You shoot the entire scene.

Set up 2 would be a close up of the male actor. You shoot the
entire scene.

Set up 3 would be over the shoulder of the female actor on the
male actor. You shoot the entire scene.

Set up 4 would be a close up of the female actor. You shoot the
entire scene.

Set up 5 would be over the shoulder of male actor on the female
actor. You shoot the entire scene.

You record audio on each set up and each take. Then you join it
all together just as you mention. You can over lap the audio, you
can use audio from set up 3/take 4 on the video of set up 4/take
1. You have a lot of flexibility when you cover the scene this
way and not stuck with just one, full audio track.

And you only need one camera and one camera crew.

Take a look at my specific breakdown on this thread:
http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=26871
 
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PaulGriffith said:
@gibbo You don't have to run three cameras at a time, but your theory is correct except it doesn't count for multiple takes or inserts. You can just use one camera and do another take in each position. Also, you may want to use the beginning from one take of a guy's tight shot and the end of another. For this reason, it's a good idea to sync audio first. Don't forget to shoot plenty of cutaways and inserts. Directorik has done an awesome job explaining this in some other posts recently.

@gibbo and indiebudget: I was using a few 7D's and we had a 24mm, 50mm, 85mm, 24-70 zoom (which we didn't use once) and a 400 mm that we used for a few special shots. The 85 was a fixed focal length, and on the 7 I guess it's really acting like a 136mm or so. It was beatiful and had a much more shallow depth of field. Plus we didn't have to be in the actor's face to get a tight.
Click to expand...

Hmm interesting.... How close would you say you would have to get with the 50mm lens to get a close up (shoulders and complete head)

We tried it on a shoulder rig and it's not good. To tight to keep steady, if it was handled the 24 and 50 worked way better. But for tripod/monopod/jib the 85 kicked butt.

It's a shame I'm learning all my focal lengths on a crop sensor, the whole game will change when I move to full frame haha. I guess that's the DP's job to worry over huh ;)
Click to expand...

Yeah that's one consolation, "let the DP worry about it" :D

directorik said:
One camera is the way it's almost always done.

You use one camera and shoot the scene from many different angles
many different times. Each time you move the camera it's called a
set up. You will do many set ups for a conversation.

Set up 1 would be the wide shot. You shoot the entire scene.

Set up 2 would be a close up of the male actor. You shoot the
entire scene.

Set up 3 would be over the shoulder of the female actor on the
male actor. You shoot the entire scene.

Set up 4 would be a close up of the female actor. You shoot the
entire scene.

Set up 5 would be over the shoulder of male actor on the female
actor. You shoot the entire scene.

You record audio on each set up and each take. Then you join it
all together just as you mention. You can over lap the audio, you
can use audio from set up 3/take 4 on the video of set up 4/take
1. You have a lot of flexibility when you cover the scene this
way and not stuck with just one, full audio track.

And you only need one camera and one camera crew.

Take a look at my specific breakdown on this thread:
http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=26871
Click to expand...

Awesome, thanks. I know it seems like I'm asking the same question over and over, I just have a different way of learning. It needs to make sense in my head first. This thread is a great reference though.
 
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"It's a shame I'm learning all my focal lengths on a crop sensor, the whole game will change when I move to full frame haha. I guess that's the DP's job to worry over huh "

I come from a photography background, so that would blow my mind. It's the main reason I'm probably going to pony up the extra $1K for a 5Dmk2 instead of a 7D this spring. i just hate crop sensors, I want full frame.
 
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Gonzo_Entertainment said:
I come from a photography background, so that would blow my mind. It's the main reason I'm probably going to pony up the extra $1K for a 5Dmk2 instead of a 7D this spring. i just hate crop sensors, I want full frame.
Click to expand...

If you're holding off til then anyway I'd wait for the Mk. III, rumoured to be released sometime next year.
 
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My good friend's brother is a pro-photog with ins at Canon and the word according to him is that the 5D's replacement will blow people's minds. Basically, all of the complaints people have had about it and other DSLR's for video will be addressed.

Time will tell, but I am not buying an HD camera until it is released, just in case the rumors prove true.
 
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