A cheap, decent camera for starting out?

[gibbo]

Hello, I wasn't sure if I should have posted this in the Camera section or here, I went with here as it is a newbie asking a newbie question. Before you shoot me, I did perform a search but could not find anything specific to what I want to ask.

Basically what I want to do is get an el cheapo 720p camera for starting out, I want to make semi decent quality short films with it for practice until I can graduate to something bigger and better.

I figure there's no point going out and getting a $1000 camera just yet, as I have not even made a short film yet I would be wasting my money because by the time I'm ready to do it properly there will be a newer, cheaper model with better features available!

Anyhoo, I have been doing some reading and saw a few people recommend Flip for complete beginners starting out. I did some more reading which lead me to the canon sd 940 which apparently does better video and audio than the flip for the same or cheaper price, also I get a decent point and shoot camera as well! I am considering the Canon unless someone can recommend something else?

Obviously, my budget is around the $200 AUD mark.

Thanks alot!

 

[Utopia]

Sorry to sound short but please put the title of your post in the search function of this board and you'll find your answer 100-fold.

Welcome to filmschool.

 

[Cracker Funk]

For the purposes of learning this craft, why do you need HD? I see no reason, whatsoever.

Cheap, used miniDV camera, off of ebay, for $100-$200. Make sure you've got a manual focus ring. Not just manual focus. Get the focus ring.

 

[gooberman]

For the purposes of learning this craft, why do you need HD? I see no reason, whatsoever.

Cheap, used miniDV camera, off of ebay, for $100-$200. Make sure you've got a manual focus ring. Not just manual focus. Get the focus ring.

I agree. Is your computer set up to edit HD video? HD video takes alot of hard drive space and processing power if your going to be using After effects. I'm assuming since your budget is so low that you dint have a high end video card or much RAM. I have a dell that has a dual core processor and 2 gigs of ram and lags and freezes with after effects. It was top of the line back in 2007, not so much anymore.

I bought a Kodak Zi8 and its not a good camera for someone starting out. You no manual controls and the file sixes are huge. your going to work hard getting your video to look OK than necessary. Don't trust the flip type cameras. sure there cheap and easy to get but if you save a little more you'll be better off.

 

[chilipie]

For the purposes of learning this craft, why do you need HD? I see no reason, whatsoever.

Cheap, used miniDV camera, off of ebay, for $100-$200. Make sure you've got a manual focus ring. Not just manual focus. Get the focus ring.

Spot on. HD footage can look beautiful, but as a beginner it only serves to make your mistakes more evident. There's no use having more resolution when you have no control over it, which is exactly what you'll get at that price point.

 

[directorik]

Basically what I want to do is get an el cheapo 720p camera for starting out, I want to make semi decent quality short films with it for practice until I can graduate to something bigger and better.

What is important is manual focus, manual exposure
and a mic input.

For your current needs any camera of any brand in
your price the camera is (at this point) lower on the
priority list. So go to your local store and ask to look
at cameras with manual focus, manual exposure and
a mic input. Buy the one you can afford.

 

[Cracker Funk]

What is important is manual focus, manual exposure
and a mic input.

And like Beyonce would say, if you like it, then you shoulda put a ring on it. Focus-ring, I mean.

 

[gibbo]

Sorry to sound short but please put the title of your post in the search function of this board and you'll find your answer 100-fold.

Welcome to filmschool.

That's ok! And I'm sorry, I do realise that this would be something that gets asked quite, I did search but couldn't find much at all really.

I agree. Is your computer set up to edit HD video? HD video takes alot of hard drive space and processing power if your going to be using After effects. I'm assuming since your budget is so low that you dint have a high end video card or much RAM. I have a dell that has a dual core processor and 2 gigs of ram and lags and freezes with after effects. It was top of the line back in 2007, not so much anymore.

What about if I use something else to edit to start off with? I was going to use after effects but not if I need a new PC, mine sound the same specs as yours except HDD space isn't an issue with mine.

I bought a Kodak Zi8 and its not a good camera for someone starting out. You no manual controls and the file sixes are huge. your going to work hard getting your video to look OK than necessary. Don't trust the flip type cameras. sure there cheap and easy to get but if you save a little more you'll be better off.

Oh ok, I was actually looking at that camera as well as the flip!

The problem with "saving a bit more" is that exactly "why don't I just save a bit more?" before I know it my low $200 budget is blown up to $500 by $50 incriments.... I guess if stuff over here in Australia was as cheap as it is in the States it would be easier. The canon hv40 over there is what, $650? Over here it's $1200 - $1600 from what i've seen on the net.

For the purposes of learning this craft, why do you need HD? I see no reason, whatsoever.

I'm just an HD lover I guess, In my eyes something shot at 4:3 and amateur will look more amateure that something amateur shot in 16:9 - that's just my opinion though and I am probably wrong about it!

I guess it's not really that I need HD, it's just that at the moment I don't have a camera, well not really, I've got a canon ixus 80 but it's really crappy. So I need to get something to practice on!

]Cheap, used miniDV camera, off of ebay, for $100-$200. Make sure you've got a manual focus ring. Not just manual focus. Get the focus ring.

Can you recommend some models?

What is important is manual focus, manual exposure
and a mic input.

For your current needs any camera of any brand in
your price the camera is (at this point) lower on the
priority list. So go to your local store and ask to look
at cameras with manual focus, manual exposure and
a mic input. Buy the one you can afford.

Noted!

And like Beyonce would say, if you like it, then you shoulda put a ring on it. Focus-ring, I mean.

lol...

 

[Utopia]

Can we please sticky one of these questions that has been solved?

 

[Cracker Funk]

Can we please sticky one of these questions that has been solved?

God, I wish we could. I think I'll blog something about this particular question, now that I've got the fancy membership, and all.

I'm just an HD lover I guess, In my eyes something shot at 4:3 and amateur will look more amateure that something amateur shot in 16:9 - that's just my opinion though and I am probably wrong about it!

Can you recommend some models?

Dude, I'm all about 16:9. It's the movie look. Even when I had a camera that shot natively in 4:3, I'd gladly drop my resolution to put it in 16:9. Thing is, though, you're just wanting a camera to learn the craft -- working in 16:9 is great, but you don't need a camera that is 16:9 native. Regardless of the camera, you can totally shoot 16:9 with ANY miniDV camcorder.

Specific models? Mmm, not really. I think directorik said it best -- it's whatever you can afford, that has all the features you want (the ones that he listed, plus a focus ring). I just did a quick search on ebay, for "miniDV camcorder", then I limited the search to used cameras under $200. I spent all of 60-seconds, and found this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Panasonic-Mini-DV-Camcorder-PV-DV400D-MiniDV-/260673450191?pt=Camcorders_Professional_Video_Cameras&hash=item3cb15930cf

You'll have to research it to make sure that it's got everything you want, but in my experience, if it's got a focus ring, it's got all that other stuff, as well. Dude, honestly, $115 for this camera is a steal, so long as it's got what you are looking for. I would swipe this up, in a heartbeat.

Oh, and regardless of your final decision, please, for the love of God, DO NOT get a freaking flip cam. That does not help you learn the skills that you'll want to learn before moving on to a more expensive camera.

 

[gooberman]

yeah sure you can use adobe premeire or windows movie maker but your preview windows are probably going to have choppy playback and who just wants to cut video together, thats no fun. and render in HD is a Bitch. It took me 9 minutes to render a 26 second clip in Adobe after effects. Im really regretting HD. Yeah it looks nice but i just dont have the resources to fully enjoy it.

 

[Cracker Funk]

Oh, balls. I just checked the specs on it. That thing that looks like a manual focus ring is a fake. Laaaaaame. Anyway, you can totally find a used miniDV camera on ebay for less than $200, with all of the features that directorik and I have mentioned, though this is not the one.

 

[David.rhsc]

This.

What is important is manual focus, manual exposure
and a mic input.

For your current needs any camera of any brand in
your price the camera is (at this point) lower on the
priority list. So go to your local store and ask to look
at cameras with manual focus, manual exposure and
a mic input. Buy the one you can afford.

If you are just starting out and trying to learn how to shoot, all you need are the 3 items in the first sentence. Everything else is extraneous.

 

[gibbo]

God, I wish we could. I think I'll blog something about this particular question, now that I've got the fancy membership, and all.

I was actually surprised to find no sticky threads or FAQ's on this forum... Wonder why that is?

Dude, I'm all about 16:9. It's the movie look. Even when I had a camera that shot natively in 4:3, I'd gladly drop my resolution to put it in 16:9. Thing is, though, you're just wanting a camera to learn the craft -- working in 16:9 is great, but you don't need a camera that is 16:9 native. Regardless of the camera, you can totally shoot 16:9 with ANY miniDV camcorder.

Fair enough. But why mini DV over just one with a HDD or straight to a memory card?

Specific models? Mmm, not really. I think directorik said it best -- it's whatever you can afford, that has all the features you want (the ones that he listed, plus a focus ring). I just did a quick search on ebay, for "miniDV camcorder", then I limited the search to used cameras under $200. I spent all of 60-seconds, and found this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Panasonic-Mini-DV-Camcorder-PV-DV400D-MiniDV-/260673450191?pt=Camcorders_Professional_Video_Cameras&hash=item3cb15930cf

You'll have to research it to make sure that it's got everything you want, but in my experience, if it's got a focus ring, it's got all that other stuff, as well. Dude, honestly, $115 for this camera is a steal, so long as it's got what you are looking for. I would swipe this up, in a heartbeat.

I can't get that specific one, but yeah I get what you mean.... Thanks!

Oh, and regardless of your final decision, please, for the love of God, DO NOT get a freaking flip cam. That does not help you learn the skills that you'll want to learn before moving on to a more expensive camera.

Yep that totally makes sense!

I guess I could get something like a canon HV40 when my wife goes over seas, but it doesn't come with international warranty.... Maybe something else around that price point

 

[directorik]

I was actually surprised to find no sticky threads or FAQ's on this forum... Wonder why that is?

I think one of the reasons is this is a very friendly,
informative forum. There are many people who post
here who don't mind answering questions - even
questions that have been asked and answered. Many
times people come to a forum and in addition to
wanting answers about, say, what camera to buy,
they are looking for a little interaction with other movie
makers. On a forum that has a sticky or a FAQ often
many people will answer a question with, "Did you
check the FAQ?" Here we answer the question.

I think that's pretty cool

 

[Cracker Funk]

Fair enough. But why mini DV over just one with a HDD or straight to a memory card?

$$$

It is the absolute least expensive option that will get you the tools you need to practice your basic filmmaking skills. If you can afford better, more power to ya. I only recommend this option for those who are strapped of cash. If you can go a little higher, I'm notoriously a big fan of the T2i.

 

[Uranium City]

Can we please sticky one of these questions that has been solved?

The day we start doing stickies regularly is the day I stop visiting this forum as often as I do. One difference about this forum compared to others are folks like our gurus and many others who take the time to answer these questions regularly for new members. There was a recent post from a relatively new member who remarked on how this was the friendliest forum on the interwebs and I agree. We may have seen this question asked and answered zillions of times but the new member hasn't. If someone has the time to answer intelligently, it'll almost guarantee that new member will want to visit again. And again. And again.

And I disagree about this question being solved...this question has been answered dozens of different ways since the dawn of the forum. When I joined the flavor-of-the-month camera was the HV20/30/40, then quickly the HFS100, and now the T2i. Directorik went from discouraging the Flip to encouraging it for that lowest of price points.

And finally, I love reading the different ways Rik answers this question. He is one who regularly takes new cameras out for test drives and can comment intelligently on them. I actually look forward to this question asked anew so I can see if Rik has new information.

/rant

 

[gibbo]

I think one of the reasons is this is a very friendly,
informative forum. There are many people who post
here who don't mind answering questions - even
questions that have been asked and answered. Many
times people come to a forum and in addition to
wanting answers about, say, what camera to buy,
they are looking for a little interaction with other movie
makers. On a forum that has a sticky or a FAQ often
many people will answer a question with, "Did you
check the FAQ?" Here we answer the question.

I think that's pretty cool

I think that's very cool and don't get me wrong, I love answering people questions as well and maybe one day i'll be answering questions on these board. It's just that alot of other forums I have visited have stickies and FAQ's that ultra newbies (like myself) can read through and find out alot of the basics quickly. Questions like these for example:

What is mini DV? (i have an idea what this is, but not 100% sure yet)
What is jello effect? (still not sure on this one)
What is a light metre?

And so on and so on.

I realise I can just google all those terms but there are things i'm not aware of that I need to know!

$$$

It is the absolute least expensive option that will get you the tools you need to practice your basic filmmaking skills. If you can afford better, more power to ya. I only recommend this option for those who are strapped of cash. If you can go a little higher, I'm notoriously a big fan of the T2i.

Great thanks!

But the T2i is a dslr, I thought it was better to get an actual camcorder that more closely emulates the functions of a pro camera?

The day we start doing stickies regularly is the day I stop visiting this forum as often as I do. One difference about this forum compared to others are folks like our gurus and many others who take the time to answer these questions regularly for new members. There was a recent post from a relatively new member who remarked on how this was the friendliest forum on the interwebs and I agree. We may have seen this question asked and answered zillions of times but the new member hasn't. If someone has the time to answer intelligently, it'll almost guarantee that new member will want to visit again. And again. And again.

And I disagree about this question being solved...this question has been answered dozens of different ways since the dawn of the forum. When I joined the flavor-of-the-month camera was the HV20/30/40, then quickly the HFS100, and now the T2i. Directorik went from discouraging the Flip to encouraging it for that lowest of price points.

And finally, I love reading the different ways Rik answers this question. He is one who regularly takes new cameras out for test drives and can comment intelligently on them. I actually look forward to this question asked anew so I can see if Rik has new information.

/rant

Well thanks Uranium, that makes me feel better about asking questions, although I do always search first.

In another thread someone recommended a Flip, a halo rig and a voice recorder to get started...

 

[PaulGriffith]

Mini DV is a format. It's a small digital tape format. There are many levels of cameras that have come out for it from consumer to pro.

The Jello effect is rolling shutter, a problem with many CMOS sensor cameras. Basically it starts recording at one end of the chip or image and finishes at the other, so if you move the camera quickly the bottom of the image is from a different location than the top, slanted like a big jello mold.

A light meter measures the light in an area. Wouldn't worry too much about this as a beginner.

A t2i Is a dslr. DSLR's grew up around imitating their respective film heritage, so now that they do video you get an amazing film camera look. Not exactly, but still a great bang for the buck. You can swap lenses too, which is unusual for a video camera in the price range. Lots of pluses, lots of minuses. I love them, but there is a learning curve.

 

[Cracker Funk]

What is mini DV? (i have an idea what this is, but not 100% sure yet)

It's the format everybody was shooting on ten or so years ago. It's like VHS, but smaller and much better quality (and digital, instead of analog). The technology is basically obsolete, but you can still get some really nice footage with them.

What is jello effect? (still not sure on this one)

With DSLR video, each line is recorded sequentially, from the top down. So, if you move the camera rapidly, horizontally, vertical lines get bendy. Watch the side of the buildings in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhfQnIQPMjM

But the T2i is a dslr, I thought it was better to get an actual camcorder that more closely emulates the functions of a pro camera?

Well, that depends on what you intent to do. Do you want to be a professional cameraman? Yeah, DSLR might not be so great for practicing on. However, if you are strapped for cash, and want your footage to look as good as possible, there's currently no better bang for your buck than the T2i. And as far as being a DP or a director is concerned, in some ways these cameras come closer to matching the look and capability of film than most camcorders.

Now read this:

http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=25684