cinematography Just how important is what camera you use?

As I watched 'Inland Empire' which was filmed entirely in SD, I wondered just how important is the camera(s) that I use for my short films. I have a D90 and a Sony CX150 that I've used extensively. I used to think that better camera = better picture but now I'm not so sure. I recently saw a couple of YT vids where people have rented red ones and made a short film. Some of these films didn't look much different that some that had been filmed with consumer cams and that got me thinking...

Maybe the camera is only as good the person operating it. Maybe with the proper lighting and cinematography, even a cheap, standard definition camera could be used to produce something worthy of the big screen. I know dynamic range and lenses play a big part in this but I dunno, what do you guys think?

If you gave Steven Spielberge a handicam and an amateur filmmaker a 7D, who do you think would come out with the better looking film?
 
"Many more people will win the lottery this year than will see a DSLR film succeed"

Pretty much agree, and I shoot on DSLR. It's a tool that mimics SOME of what a high end camera can do for a VERY cheap price. It allows you to (hopefully) demonstrate to people you have the skill and talent to be trusted with a budget. That you have a high probablility of being able to produce a marketable film. When/if that day ever came, and I had a couple hundred thousand to play around with, near the top of my budget priorities would be renting a Red or an Arri Alexa. I shoot HDSLR because i have to.

Exactly. I have a DSLR that I bought because it's adequate for shorts for festivals or online release or for something like a web series. I love it, and it gives me the ability to just go out and shoot something whenever I want. On the web especially, it really doesn't matter what kind of camera you're using, because the compression makes it all look about the same in the end (see Film Riot's last episode for a comparison of the 5D MkII and the Red Epic when they've both been uploaded to the web—honestly, the 5D footage handles the compression better in some cases).

But when I finally get to the point of doing a feature, you better believe that I'll be trying to get the money to rent an Alexa or a Red (if I haven't just bought a Scarlet by that point—if they ever release them, that is).

When my camera becomes the limiting factor, then I'll upgrade. At the moment, I'm just learning, and so it's not an issue for me.
 
Exactly. I have a DSLR that I bought because it's adequate for shorts for festivals or online release or for something like a web series. I love it, and it gives me the ability to just go out and shoot something whenever I want. On the web especially, it really doesn't matter what kind of camera you're using, because the compression makes it all look about the same in the end (see Film Riot's last episode for a comparison of the 5D MkII and the Red Epic when they've both been uploaded to the web—honestly, the 5D footage handles the compression better in some cases).

But when I finally get to the point of doing a feature, you better believe that I'll be trying to get the money to rent an Alexa or a Red (if I haven't just bought a Scarlet by that point—if they ever release them, that is).

When my camera becomes the limiting factor, then I'll upgrade. At the moment, I'm just learning, and so it's not an issue for me.

@cameronchapman - That's a completely sane and reasonable way to proceed. I personally spent years training with a dslr, skeleton crew, etc. I agree about the web video, there is no reason to gear up for youtube broadcasting.

@others Then, instead of trying to jump from ground level to the top of mount Everest, which seems to be the popular idea, I took it one step at a time.

First, I directed 30 second local tv spots. You can do that with a DSLR, or with no camera if you educate yourself in post far enough. Then I stepped up to 2 minute presentation reels. Then shooting RFP's and commemorative videos for large corporations like Hyundai and Mazda. Taking the money from these "intermediary steps" I started positioning myself to be brought into film projects as DP or Lead post.

Then I spent a lot of time learning business strategies, and used those strategies, rather than my money, to buy the real equipment. Once the equipment was in play, I used that for leverage. Now I have something priceless. A negotiating position. Where is that listed in the top 10 things you need to make a film? I assure you it's in the top 3.

The single biggest problem on the entire form and indie film mentality in general, is that no one talks about stepping stones. The path to the theater is too long for most people to leap in a single bound. If you constantly do effective work that compliments whatever skill level you are currently at, you will gain money, recognition, and support organically, which is a much more realistic way to proceed than trying to jump straight into a feature film.
 
Then I spent a lot of time learning business strategies, and used those strategies, rather than my money, to buy the real equipment. Once the equipment was in play, I used that for leverage. Now I have something priceless. A negotiating position. Where is that listed in the top 10 things you need to make a film? I assure you it's in the top 3.
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But if you have to use a camera to negotiate, you're basically saying that you aren't skilled enough to do it without that, and anyone else with the same camera and slightly more talent and gab can take your position.

To boot, noone with any serious leverage cares about cameras. At all. Not as a bargaining tool, anyway. The people who do are still stuck in the same small circles with tiny dollars, paying 100/day for crew etc.

It seems like hyperbole to me. I mean, at this point, you're basically becoming the same person that says "Story is King"

When in truth, if you're talking money, none of this stuff matters as much as one single thing.

And, yeah, I know you might say or at least think "Hey, you use RED MX ritually... are you being a hypocrite?"

IN some sense, yes. At the same time, even now, I'm considering using 5D's to shoot the next feature. Even though I could easily break out a pair of MX's and get an infinitely better image. There are reasons behind that.
 
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But if you have to use a camera to negotiate, you're basically saying that you aren't skilled enough to do it without that, and anyone else with the same camera and slightly more talent and gab can take your position.

To boot, noone with any serious leverage cares about cameras. At all. Not as a bargaining tool, anyway. The people who do are still stuck in the same small circles with tiny dollars, paying 100/day for crew etc.

It seems like hyperbole to me. I mean, at this point, you're basically becoming the same person that says "Story is King"

When in truth, if you're talking money, none of this stuff matters as much as one single thing.

And, yeah, I know you might say or at least think "Hey, you use RED MX ritually... are you being a hypocrite?"

IN some sense, yes. At the same time, even now, I'm considering using 5D's to shoot the next feature. Even though I could easily break out a pair of MX's and get an infinitely better image. There are reasons behind that.

I'm not using the camera to negotioate, I'm using the fact that they want something from me, whatever that may be.

It really does change the game. My old pitch "help me, I'm weak, can I has some money" My new pitch "I can help you, if you have the money"

Doing a lot better with the new pitch. Everybody loves the underdog, but investors don't. Whoever has the most money, is who they give the most money to. They are basically so stupid as to see only your holdings as evidence of your skill. I challenge any genius level polotician to run against Sarah "Repudiate" Palin with her millions of idiot dollars.

I actually have skill, but I couldn't get it noticed because they kept saying "if you're so skilled, where's your money." I'd say back "I'm trying to get money for the first time, all I have is this DSLR timelapse footage" They say "so you are loosing money, and you want us to join you in that pursuit?" I say, "Look at my quality, it's way above average" They say,"We are impressed by your work, but since you aren't gaining financially without us, we think you won't gain financially with us"

So the camera is not a camera, it's proof that I'm succeeding, and that's what they want to see. They want to back a winner, not a filmmaker. Never use the word "art" at a business meaning. You can literally see their eyes gloss over.

And where does that success come from? From business deals. From shooting pro work that is within my means. As a guy that can pull constant money, via rentals, offsets, tax initiatives, etc, I am far more attractive to potential investors than someone with a great story. I know that's not applicable to crowd funding type stuff (well, I know now) but it definitely applies to regular investors.

Bottom line, if you want to work your way up, impress money people on their home territory. The season is mostly away games. It's rare to get a neutral investor, much less an adverse one, to play on your home court (filmmaking skill in this case).

Ultimately, my pitch is not that I have an Epic, my pitch is that I've gone from $0 to 100k on my own. Then I add in a metric ton of personality, energy, and financial charts. I'll often show up at a meeting in a suit and tie, and hand them a 35 page PDF explaining the numbers down to the decimal.
 
money is more important than camera or story

with money you can buy a great story and a great camera.

If you don't have money, then you make do the best you can, or go do something else...

I agree with this 100%. I wish it was a meritocracy out there, but it's not. If you are an 8 foot tall guy that flunked out of high school, can't read or write, but can slam dunk 3 times a game, you can make a movie in 3 years from now, even if you don't know what a "camera" is. If you are the worlds greatest indie filmmaker, and you have 1 million youtube hits and an empty bank account, statistically, you are likely to fail.

Money doesn't matter to me at all, but I know that it's all anyone else can see, so I play on the field available to me, not the one I wish existed.

For what it's worth, I'm on your side, the indie filmmaker, the underdog, the talented kid. I just know that money is what "they" care about, and that I have to meet them more than half way.
 
I'd even put sound above cinematographer. Everyone says it's 50% of the movie. I think it's closer to 60%. I've seen cheaply shot movies with great sound & music and been totally engrossed where as beautifully shot films with lousy sound just come off cheesy and/or frustrating.
 
It depends entirely on your level of skill, and what you're trying to accomplish.

As far as story, It's not that I disagree with it's prioritization as first, it's just like we are discussing pole vaulting, and 1000 people keep saying "forget about your jump, it's all about standing on a solid surface"
It's not that it's bad advice, just so basic as to go without saying.

I have to disagree with this statement about story. It's perfectly clear that BIG BUDGET Hollywood films e.g. films by the pros without a good, well-developed story get green-lighted. Too many filmmakers, beginners to pros, screw up their stories and then shoot a film based on that crap story.
 
Many more people will win the lottery this year than will see a DSLR film succeed.

The number of people shooting on RED versus the number of people shooting RED that succeed is also LOTTO LIKE.

The problem with a DSLR feature isn't the camera, the camera is not the limiting factor, it's that a film that budgets for a DSLR is a film that has no budget. No name actors, inexperienced DP, up and down, it's likely to be a production that has cut corners in every area.

If you can afford to put Jeff Bridges in your movie, you can probably afford to rent an Epic and fleet of grip trucks.

Suggesting that everyone should go out and buy an Epic because it's what the big boys play with is bad advice. Way smarter to use what little funds you have to invest in human capital. Actors, DP's, writers, costumers, they'll make the difference. Not your RED.
 
As I watched 'Inland Empire' which was filmed entirely in SD, I wondered just how important is the camera(s) that I use for my short films. I have a D90 and a Sony CX150 that I've used extensively. I used to think that better camera = better picture but now I'm not so sure. I recently saw a couple of YT vids where people have rented red ones and made a short film. Some of these films didn't look much different that some that had been filmed with consumer cams and that got me thinking...

Maybe the camera is only as good the person operating it. Maybe with the proper lighting and cinematography, even a cheap, standard definition camera could be used to produce something worthy of the big screen. I know dynamic range and lenses play a big part in this but I dunno, what do you guys think?

If you gave Steven Spielberge a handicam and an amateur filmmaker a 7D, who do you think would come out with the better looking film?

it depends on how your audience will be viewing your movie. If its going to be on blue ray, the $55,000 camera is going to trump the DSLR by a long shot, of course. But I've found that on sites like youtube, the compression takes so much out of the video that you can barely tell the difference between something like the "red" and a t2i.

I think one of the biggest factors is that the better camera gives you more to work with when it comes time to edit. More information in the video makes it easier to color correct and so on.

I would check out FilmRiot on youtube, as they actually compare in detail the differences between the 5dmkII and the t2i, and then later the "red" and the 5d. They compare some things like rolling shutter and low light performance. check it out http://www.youtube.com/user/filmriot

and to answer your question, Spielberg would win even if you just gave him a pen and 30 pages of loose leaf paper to scribble on, because he has tools that money cant buy; his brain.

My rule of thumb is to use what you have until you can afford/need something better. If you master your craft, you can produce quality no matter what tools you have (to an extent, I think it would be hard to make super 8 camcorder look good) . The time we live in is great for guerrilla filmmakers because the technology is affordable and within the reach of most people. Add the required talent and you can do some amazing stuff with very little money.

/rant
 
The number of people shooting on RED versus the number of people shooting RED that succeed is also LOTTO LIKE.

The problem with a DSLR feature isn't the camera, the camera is not the limiting factor, it's that a film that budgets for a DSLR is a film that has no budget. No name actors, inexperienced DP, up and down, it's likely to be a production that has cut corners in every area.

If you can afford to put Jeff Bridges in your movie, you can probably afford to rent an Epic and fleet of grip trucks.

Suggesting that everyone should go out and buy an Epic because it's what the big boys play with is bad advice. Way smarter to use what little funds you have to invest in human capital. Actors, DP's, writers, costumers, they'll make the difference. Not your RED.

Excellent post :)
 
Just reread this entire post. Lots of worthwhile opinions on the topic. After considering everyone's opinion and my own, here's what I say.

Everything on that list can't be ordered sequentially, it's all relatively equal. If you screw up one of those things then the entire movie is crap. It's like saying the heart is more important than the liver. Take either one away and you're SOL haha. There aren't really any minor leagues in this business anymore. Even straight to DVD stuff I'd made similarly to Hollywood Features, just a different marketing budget. You play against the Majors or you don't play.

Plan for excellence in every area.
 
Just reread this entire post. Lots of worthwhile opinions on the topic. After considering everyone's opinion and my own, here's what I say.

Everything on that list can't be ordered sequentially, it's all relatively equal. If you screw up one of those things then the entire movie is crap. It's like saying the heart is more important than the liver. Take either one away and you're SOL haha. There aren't really any minor leagues in this business anymore. Even straight to DVD stuff I'd made similarly to Hollywood Features, just a different marketing budget. You play against the Majors or you don't play.

Plan for excellence in every area.


I agree. I saw a movie once that budgeted in Christopher Walken for all of 5 minutes. Movie was still terrible. That 5 minutes of Walken was only marginally better.
 
Sure, but you still saw the movie. Budgeting Walken clearly worked.


actually I had no idea he was in it till he came into scene. I was a kid when I saw it, my dad and I went to the video rental place and got movies every weekend (remember when people did that? lol) so we saw just about everything they had. We saw that movie and it seemed promising on the outside, because it was about vampires... but then regretted the decision at 30 seconds into the movie.
 
actually I had no idea he was in it till he came into scene. I was a kid when I saw it, my dad and I went to the video rental place and got movies every weekend (remember when people did that? lol) so we saw just about everything they had. We saw that movie and it seemed promising on the outside, because it was about vampires... but then regretted the decision at 30 seconds into the movie.

Would the film have made it to video store shelves without Walken?
 
Would the film have made it to video store shelves without Walken?


Oh, I have no idea. Its one of those movies that for some reason had rave reviews, but no one really knew why. Wonder how that happened *$$$*.

I think they threw a lot of money at one big name actor, and paid the right people to say good things about it instead of spending that same money on good production quality.

I guess when it comes down to it, they spent their money right, from a profit standpoint. If they just made the best movie they could it probably would have never gotten anywhere. I would like to believe that the person who made it took that money and then went on to make better movies... but most likely they spent it on coke and later became the A/V tech at a local college.

hmmm, now I'm curious. I'm going to have to look into this. I'm going to have to eat my words if it turns out it was Peter Jacksons first film or something. lol
 
hmmm, now I'm curious. I'm going to have to look into this. I'm going to have to eat my words if it turns out it was Peter Jacksons first film or something. lol
I always enjoy laughing at "respected" actors in deplorable films.
It's kinduva perverse form of entertainment (better than a minors-as-sex-slaves sorta thing).

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000686/

Hmm... about what year was it you and Dad went to the video store? VHS, not DVD, right?



yeah, I was just looking it up. It was this one [urlhttp://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112288/[/url].
Cool.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112288/business
Hmm... maybe they cleaned up on DVD sales? Maybe? :lol:
 
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