Which camera is better?

H

harmonica44

I wanna shoot a few shorts to build a portfolio in order to get funding to film one of my screenplays and hopefully more afterwords. So for shooting shorts that will be winners at the film festivals, I need the camera that will qualify for to be seen as a good director. I am shooting on very low micro budgets though and need some advice. I've done research and so far there are two HD cameras out there, that are cheap, yet seem to be the best choices to meet the standards of being good enough quality to catch the critics eyes.

The Canon Rebel T2i HD and the Canon HV30 HDV. Which camera is better quality and why? And are they both qualify-able for film festival standards to break into the business? And if possible are there cameras with that good of quality, that are even cheaper? I also wanna shoot in 4:3 ratio, if those offer that. Thanks.
 
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All true sir, I just didn't have time to go into it all this morning. The 40d will shoot 27 meg stills at 3/second, giving you the 81 number.

Lens for RED (18-85) costs $10,000 and weighs 10 pounds, each lens hand made. It definitely makes a difference.

I got a raw RED frame and it was 127 meg. It shoots at 60 fps, where is my error?
 
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@ Nate:

Why the RED still you got is 127MB I don't know.
Are you sure you got is as REDcode instead of a 16 or 32 bit TIF?
(Or something else?)
Anyway, I now understand how you got to the 7500MB/s number. But just think about this number: 7500MB/s would be 60.000Mb/s. (1MB = 8Mb) That's about 60Gb/s. That would mean you'll need 20 (!) eSATA connections to be able to transfer the data realtime. (eSATA can transfer 3 Gb/s) Or 75 FW800 connections.
My educated guess is that there are not many computers that can handle this.
(I got the RED28 and RED48 numbers from the REDwebsite; I was shocked when I saw the 7500MB... I had to check it out...)

About the 40D:
Comparing a 3 stills (of 8MP raw)/sec camera with a camera shooting HD is what the Dutch call: "comparing apples and pears". They are totally different fruits, just like the 40D and 5D/550D or 60D when we talk about shooting video. (It's like comparing flightcharacteristics or an airplane and a car ;-) )

@ Harmonica:

Although the T2 is cheaper than the 5DmkII (the old 5D doesn't shoot video!) Nate feels the 5D is a better deal. I'm sure he can tell you why :)
 
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WalterB said:
@ Nate:

Why the RED still you got is 127MB I don't know.
Are you sure you got is as REDcode instead of a 16 or 32 bit TIF?
(Or something else?)
Anyway, I now understand how you got to the 7500MB/s number. But just think about this number: 7500MB/s would be 60.000Mb/s. (1MB = 8Mb) That's about 60Gb/s. That would mean you'll need 20 (!) eSATA connections to be able to transfer the data realtime. (eSATA can transfer 3 Gb/s) Or 75 FW800 connections.
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Thanks for clearing that up, It was in fact a Tiff file, which I took to be a rewrap of a red frame rather than a conversion. The number sounded huge to me too, but red's pricing of 1500 just for the slot that holds your 3000 dollar memory card had me beliving the camera would be capable of anything. I thought there might be a tiny international airport with a starbucks inside.

Little confused about how 7500 meg would translate into 60 gig. My count would be 7.5% of one gig/s. Is bit and byte denoted by the capitalization of the B? If thats the case I see where I caused the confusion.
 
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The big problem is indeed that bit and bytes are used next to each other.
1Byte = 8bits
Filesize uses B (Bytes) but for daterate b/s bits per second is used.

So transfering 7500 MB per second = datarate of 7500x8 Mb/s = 60.000 Mb/s
 
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I'm a really computer literate type, so I'm really shocked I didn't know something this basic. I knew 8 bits to a byte of course, but did not know that storage and transfer defaulted to the different measurements. It certainly explains a lot.

Thanks Walter, now I know. You've probably saved me from looking like a moron in front of an important future client.
 
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Nate North said:
I'm a really computer literate type, so I'm really shocked I didn't know something this basic. I knew 8 bits to a byte of course, but did not know that storage and transfer defaulted to the different measurements. It certainly explains a lot.

Thanks Walter, now I know. You've probably saved me from looking like a moron in front of an important future client.
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You're welcome!

Btw, the trick is to not talk about transferspeed.
Try avoiding talking about storage as well, but some clients like to know what filesize they can expect. Or you needs to talk about filesizes because you'll need to swapfiles across cyberspace.
Even better: don't speak 'techno' with your clients at all ;)

I think they still use b/s because it produces bigger numbers.
 
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What about the Nikon D50? Is that as good of quality for film festival standards? You know what would really help is if they put on the box which notable indie films were shot with that camera. Then, if you have seen that film, you would get a good idea of how good the quality can be.
 
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Well I got the canon T2 and started using it when you shoot while moving the camera it has what I found out is called the 'jello' effect. I have had no idea what that is and no one has told me the T2 had it. What good are DSLR's if you can't even move the camera while shooting, during action/chase scenes? I have already spent the camera budget, so is there anyway to fix this jello, perhaps even in post? Or do I have to now shoot the movie and send it into the festivals with it?
 
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Do I have to now shoot the movie and send it into the festivals with it?
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You don't have to do anything.

But there are numerous ways to correct and reduce rolling shutter or "jello effect" in post. There are lots of editing software plug-ins available.

The best way to avoid this problem, though, is to construct your movie so you don't have to swing your camera quickly.
 
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There are plenty of ways to fix jello in post, but there really shouldn't be many situations when you need to. The vast majority of your shots should be on a tripod or some sort of stabilizer. Shaky handheld will just look amateurish, especially in the hands of an amateur.
 
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I use a tripod all the time accept for action and chase scenes, where it normally looks better to move the camera along with the chase. So I guess I will just have to learn to fix jello in those scenes.
 
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harmonica44 said:
I use a tripod all the time accept for action and chase scenes, where it normally looks better to move the camera along with the chase. So I guess I will just have to learn to fix jello in those scenes.
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How you move the camera in those scenes is very important - Blair Witch style shakycam will make the jello effect much more noticeable than a smooth dolly shot or regular handheld work.
 
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Okay thanks, I'll talk to him about that. Aside from doing this current short film, I also wanna do the whole feature length script that I wrote that the short film is made from. I wanna make a whole feature film after. So I think I'll use the canon T2 since it's cheap, but I'm nervous about using I can't find any features that have been shot with it. So it's hard to compare quality.
 
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harmonica44 said:
Okay thanks, I'll talk to him about that. Aside from doing this current short film, I also wanna do the whole feature length script that I wrote that the short film is made from. I wanna make a whole feature film after. So I think I'll use the canon T2 since it's cheap, but I'm nervous about using I can't find any features that have been shot with it. So it's hard to compare quality.
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It might be difficult to find features that have been shot with it, but given that there are thousands of short films shot on the T2i/550D out there you can see exactly what its capable of in the right hands. I'd be a bit worried if your DoP can't work out how to hold a camera - perhaps send him to do some research online?
 
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I know a lot of features, are not shot with it, which is why it makes me nervous to use it since it hasn't been used for hardly any. Well during action scenes where you move the camera, he just holds it like you would DSLR. He's never used DSLR to shoot before and used broadcast, film, and digital camcorders.
 
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harmonica44 said:
I know a lot of features, are not shot with it, which is why it makes me nervous to use it since it hasn't been used for hardly any. Well during action scenes where you move the camera, he just holds it like you would DSLR. He's never used DSLR to shoot before and used broadcast, film, and digital camcorders.
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There are many schools of thought on how to shoot action.

"In an action movie, I don't want to move the camera too much, because the movement should be within the frame. The same goes for comedy. You don't want to push in for a joke; it's plenty in a medium shot. Watch my jokes, they're never in close-up. If the audience feels the camera, it's horrible." Brett Ratner

Salary:

Rush Hour 3 (2007)

$7,500,000


X-Men: The Last Stand (2006)

$8,000.000 + A percentage of final net gross


Red Dragon (2002)

$6,000,000



Rush Hour 2 (2001)

$5,000,000


The Family Man (2000)

$5,000,000
 
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Well I got the camera anyway and look forward to shooting the feature on it after we shoot a short film. It's weird though. I cannot find any feature films, that have been shot with it, so I feel nervous using it since it's never been done before.
 
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