What are distributors doing for indie today?

[Blade_Jones]

What are brick and mortar distributors doing for indie movies these days that is worth a hill of beans? After all ANYBODY can sign up with Amazon Advantage and have their DVD for sale on there. And last time I checked (although a few years ago) it was a one-time $750 charge to get your movie for sale digitally on iTunes and Amazon. Then we have the question of how robust are digital sales anyway? $750 is a LOT to fork over which is why I haven't done it yet.

I had a distributor offer to handle an indie movie of mine but I am very skeptical. I don't see any indie films in any of what's left of brick and mortar stores. So that leaves digital and DVD distribution to Amazon and iTunes basically. I CAN DO THAT MYSELF! And there's no free lunches in this world. If this distributor pays $750 to get my movie for sale on iTunes then they're simply going to deduct that cost before I see any revenues. Overall a distributor just seems like an extra middleman taking money out of my pocket. What do you think?

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Who are you kidding???!!!

Either your film has so much commercial potential that you can make all your demands and still have distros fighting to distribute your film or, you're doing a great job of "kidding" yourself and need no additional help from me!

I'm not telling you to surrender your copyrights. I personally would avoid selling or giving away a copyright but I wouldn't rule it out entirely, depending on the distro, the deal they're offering and various other factors, including what my copyright is actually worth without commercial distribution.

G

 

[payperfilm]

In other words, you may not have to reach what I (or Alcove) consider to be professional commercial standards because iTunes does not exclusively host content of professional commercial standards, it also hosts a lot of content below that level. So really you should seek the advice of an aggregator familiar with iTunes current requirements/expectations, rather than judging whether you are likely to pass iTunes' QC based on what you have picked from my posts (which are relative to commercial content distribution).

G

Thanks for the encouragement, APE. That's a very reasonable stance. If I could price my film lower on Amazon or iTunes, I would do it. 99 cents or even 49 cents per download. I'm not trying to compete against the studios and their technical expertise.

Even Mara from Surviving Family which has far more production value than my film mentioned she had to do some additional work on her sound to get it on onto iTunes. So I'm guessing I would too. That's something I'm not willing to do as I'm sort of creatively fatigued about that project.

 

[Blade_Jones]

Either your film has so much commercial potential that you can make all your demands and still have distros fighting to distribute your film or, you're doing a great job of "kidding" yourself and need no additional help from me!

I'm not telling you to surrender your copyrights. I personally would avoid selling or giving away a copyright but I wouldn't rule it out entirely, depending on the distro, the deal they're offering and various other factors, including what my copyright is actually worth without commercial distribution.

G

Show me a filmmaker who signed away their copyrights and I can guarantee you they never had a film attorney review the contract. Again you LICENSE rights. Failure to leave yourself with leverage to force the distributor to adhere to the terms of the contract (ex- pay and pay timely!) and you're just screwing yourself. There is nothing worse than being STUCK with a distributor who is not adhering to terms of the contract, usually not paying. It's those smaller distributors that are the worst of the worst. No room for contractual blunders with these clowns.

 

[Sweetie]

I believe that James Cameron assigned (what you are calling signing away copyright) the sequel rights to the Terminator franchise after Terminator 2 (it was resold recently). I'd be very much surprised if he didn't at a minimum consult a film attorney as you guarantee, but who knows, you may be right

I also believe that Oren Peli sold most of what you're calling his copyrights for Paranormal Activity to Dreamworks/Paramount.

I'm sure there are many, many other examples if you dig a little, even more so on the no-budget end where some filmmakers are so desperate to get their film out there and be discovered than worry about financial returns.

Not all rights are created equal.

On a side note, you can put a time limit along with terms and conditions on your assignment of rights, just like you can with licenses. Which way you go depends on negotiations and isn't as arbitrary as you suggest. There can be benefits of assigning rights.

What I'm unsure about is why you're focusing on dodgy distributors. Common sense would dictate that if you believe they're dodgy, don't do business with them in the first place. If they're dodgy and you're in business with them, you have to go through a legal battle to protect your rights, in which most small filmmakers are unable to financially sustain. It's smarter to pass on those companies than choose whether you "sell" or "license" to them.

Then again, what would I know?

 

[Blade_Jones]

I believe that James Cameron assigned (what you are calling signing away copyright) the sequel rights to the Terminator franchise after Terminator 2 (it was resold recently). I'd be very much surprised if he didn't at a minimum consult a film attorney as you guarantee, but who knows, you may be right

I also believe that Oren Peli sold most of what you're calling his copyrights for Paranormal Activity to Dreamworks/Paramount.

I'm sure there are many, many other examples if you dig a little, even more so on the no-budget end where some filmmakers are so desperate to get their film out there and be discovered than worry about financial returns.

Not all rights are created equal.

On a side note, you can put a time limit along with terms and conditions on your assignment of rights, just like you can with licenses. Which way you go depends on negotiations and isn't as arbitrary as you suggest. There can be benefits of assigning rights.

What I'm unsure about is why you're focusing on dodgy distributors. Common sense would dictate that if you believe they're dodgy, don't do business with them in the first place. If they're dodgy and you're in business with them, you have to go through a legal battle to protect your rights, in which most small filmmakers are unable to financially sustain. It's smarter to pass on those companies than choose whether you "sell" or "license" to them.

Then again, what would I know?

People in this forum have films that are not going to be the next Paranormal Activity or anything close. From my experience and others that I know, there is a very high prevalence of small distributors who are dodgy -- they don't pay according to terms. It's the small ones that you just cannot do business with unless you have leverage, checks and balances, caps, etc. The last thing you want is to be left trying to wrestle away the right to go elsewhere with your movie when a breach occurs.
With non-traditional world wide distribution being so easy, indie filmmakers are more in the driver's seat than ever. No way I'm gonna transfer and assign my copyrights.

 

[jax_rox]

People in this forum have films that are not going to be the next Paranormal Activity or anything close. From my experience and others that I know, there is a very high prevalence of small distributors who are dodgy -- they don't pay according to terms. It's the small ones that you just cannot do business with unless you have leverage, checks and balances, caps, etc. The last thing you want is to be left trying to wrestle away the right to go elsewhere with your movie when a breach occurs.
With non-traditional world wide distribution being so easy, indie filmmakers are more in the driver's seat than ever. No way I'm gonna transfer and assign my copyrights.

If you believe this distributor to be dodgy, why are you even considering them? If you don't believe them to be dodgy, I'm not sure why you haven't attempted negotiating a cap on expenses. Or a time limit for the rights.

Is it a theatrical release? Theatrical releases are damn expensive. You mentioned in your OP that they seem to be wanting to release into stores. Isn't that in the contract? You say you're skeptical because you don't see indie movies in brick and mortar stores. Apart from that being totally untrue (you must not be looking hard enough), if it states in the contract that's what they're going to do, why do you have any reason to be suspicious? If they don't do it, then they're not fulfilling their end of the contract.

Are they not paying you a fee for the rights?

Are you wanting to make money from the film? I read recently that for every 5000 movies that try and self-distribute, <20 make any sort of real money. That's a success rate of <0.4%. So I hope you have a plan.

 

[Sweetie]

With non-traditional world wide distribution being so easy, indie filmmakers are more in the driver's seat than ever.

Hey, you're entitled to your opinion. I'm not sure there's anyone who has gone through the distribution process and ever called it easy. In particularly the self distribution process. It's a very complicated and often expensive (either in the cost to promote or the cost of lost opportunity) path.

I do have a question. If you believe it's the indie filmmakers who are in the drivers seat, why are these so many tiny dodgy distributors springing up and surviving these days? If Indie filmmakers were truly in the drivers seat, wouldn't they have the pick of the litter to choose from with the enormous amount of distributors beating a path to their door.

No way I'm gonna transfer and assign my copyrights.

Good for you. I'm glad you've pre-decided your best course of action.

Unless the right situation came up for me, I'd probably lean the same way. Though I'd prefer to never say never.

 

[Blade_Jones]

If you believe this distributor to be dodgy, why are you even considering them? If you don't believe them to be dodgy, I'm not sure why you haven't attempted negotiating a cap on expenses. Or a time limit for the rights.

Is it a theatrical release? Theatrical releases are damn expensive. You mentioned in your OP that they seem to be wanting to release into stores. Isn't that in the contract? You say you're skeptical because you don't see indie movies in brick and mortar stores. Apart from that being totally untrue (you must not be looking hard enough), if it states in the contract that's what they're going to do, why do you have any reason to be suspicious? If they don't do it, then they're not fulfilling their end of the contract.

Are they not paying you a fee for the rights?

Are you wanting to make money from the film? I read recently that for every 5000 movies that try and self-distribute, <20 make any sort of real money. That's a success rate of <0.4%. So I hope you have a plan.

I don't negotiate with someone who attempts to pass a dummy contract on me. The transfer of copyrights was just the beginning. The rest of the contract was unacceptable as well. My post was more of a survey than anything.

Nobody gets theatrical.

No fee offered.

I found this link http://www.writersstore.com/6-lies-of-film-distribution/ That's 5,000 movies made -- not 5,000 self-distributed movies. And they're talking about 20 blockbuster big studio hits. Actually more like 30,000 movies and videos of all sorts are released every year on Amazon alone. Everyone I know who used a small distributor never saw a check. It's a two way street. The other thing is that if an independently distributed movie doesn't make much money you will never know how it WOULD have done had it otherwise been handled by a distributor. So is making some money independently a bad thing?

Hey, you're entitled to your opinion. I'm not sure there's anyone who has gone through the distribution process and ever called it easy. In particularly the self distribution process. It's a very complicated and often expensive (either in the cost to promote or the cost of lost opportunity) path.

I do have a question. If you believe it's the indie filmmakers who are in the drivers seat, why are these so many tiny dodgy distributors springing up and surviving these days? If Indie filmmakers were truly in the drivers seat, wouldn't they have the pick of the litter to choose from with the enormous amount of distributors beating a path to their door.

As a previous posted by someone, distribution IS easy. Marketing to consumers is the hard part.
Why are dodgy distributors springing up? Because there's so many filmmakers who just automatically believe that signing with a traditional distributor is the way its done! Perhaps they have never heard of bitmax.net (iTunes inroad), Amazon Advantage (DVD distribution on Amazon), and apparently Create Space (inroad to Amazon Instant Video). Maybe if they had prior first hand experience with a dead beat distributor they'd think differently too.
They also think that traditional distributors have magic powers to sell lots of DVD's and downloads. They don't unless the movie somehow gets press and publicity. Unfortunately the media is fixated on taking about the big blockbusters and stars of those movies.
Why are there so many literary agents? Because there's so many naive people who are willing to PAY these clowns to shop their script. Accept a few and an agent can earn a nice living.

And to your last question, making money off of indie films is like squeezing blood out of a rock. Maybe that's why there's so many dodgy distributors.

 

[Sweetie]

distribution IS easy

Getting decent distribution isn't easy at all.

Marketing to consumers is the hard part.

Marketing is easy. It's just expensive. It costs a lot of money to market a marketable film well. That's why distribution is hard to get. Finding a distributor who is willing to spend that much money on your film is the tough part, but I do see where you're coming from:

If you're happy to throw up your film on youtube, tell a few friends and some groups and hope they spread it around *IS* easy. It's not really what I'd call distribution though. Same as putting it up on iTunes without marketing.

Nobody gets theatrical.

All generalizations are false.
-George Carlin

 

[Sweetie]

So is making some money independently a bad thing?

And to answer your question.... no. Why would it be a bad thing?

 

[Blade_Jones]

Getting decent distribution isn't easy at all.

Yes. The question is how realistic is it when you sign with some small distributor that they will get your indie movie in what's left of stores, foreign distribution, broadcast? There's too many distributors that just sign anything decent they can sign and throw it out there hoping that maybe 1 in 20 will stick, otherwise a little bit of sales is enough to keep the business going but you never see a dime.

If it isn't a quality distributor with a plan then you're better off DIY.

 

[Sweetie]

The question is how realistic is it when you sign with some small distributor that they will get your indie movie in what's left of stores, foreign distribution, broadcast?

It depends on your package. It's really as simple as that. The more value you bring to the table, the more power you have to negotiate.

If it isn't a quality distributor with a plan then you're better off DIY.

I would mostly agree with that. Though if you're coming up short for a decent distributor, you're pretty much screwed anyway. You'll be lucky to be able to pay your people minimum wages with the way that most DIY distributions go.

Of all those movies that are made every year, I'd be interested to know the breakdown. The genre and how many have a name., with both Tier 1 and Tier 2 names kept separate. I think you'll find that a majority of those films will fall into the wrong genre combined with no names category. While it's not a complete end to the success of a movie, it's a weak point to negotiate from.

 

[directorik]

For me the question has always been; Am I a distributor or a filmmaker?
And the answer (for me) is an easy one. I am a filmmaker.

Yes, it is easier than ever to make a movie available to the public. It is
harder than ever to get people to PAY to watch it. Simply making a movie
available on Amazon does not mean people will find it and PAY to watch
it. Just because a movies is available in iTunes does not mean people will
find it and PAY to watch it. Distribution is marketing. How a movie is
marketed to the public is EVERYTHING. If people can't find it, if people
don't know it exists, people cannot pay the filmmaker anything.

Self distribution is marketing. Marketing – making the people aware the
film exists – is time consuming and very expensive.

I ask this often; how many times a month (or year) do YOU find movies
made by people like you - talented, dedicated, creative director, writer,
producer, DP you have never heard of starring actors you have never heard
of - and PAY to watch them?

 

[Sweetie]

Rik, I assume this is aimed at Blade? I'm on the same page and agree with you.

 

[Blade_Jones]

Here's an idea. Distribute yourself but instead hire a PR firm (if you don't want to promote it yourself). This way you don't get screwed by a dodgy distributor.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

From my experience and others that I know, there is a very high prevalence of small distributors who are dodgy -- they don't pay according to terms. It's the small ones that you just cannot do business with unless you have leverage, checks and balances, caps, etc.

Sorry, I just don't get your logic! What "leverage" do you think you're going to get by negotiating "checks and balances" in your contract, if these distros "don't pay according to the terms" of the contract anyway?
The ONLY leverage you've got is the potential commercial value of your film and of course, that's the potential commercial value as a distro judges it, not what you think it's worth! If the only distros you and your friends have attracted are the ones who can only survive by being "dodgy" then there are only two possible explanations: 1. You and your friends have been exceptionally unlucky and you need to look at some different distros, or 2. Your film/s have so little commercial value that only dodgy distros would have any interest in them!

Show me a filmmaker who signed away their copyrights and I can guarantee you they never had a film attorney review the contract. Again you LICENSE rights.

I know several filmmakers who've sold their copyrights and who had film attorneys scrutinize the contracts, I wouldn't want to name them here though. Your "guarantee" isn't worth a hill of beans! Also, you can shout "LICENSE" all you want, along with "expenses cap" and any other demands you wish but unless your film has good profit potential you don't have any leverage! So either the distro will tell you to accept the terms they are offering or get lost or, some of the dodgy distros might accept your terms but then not honour them.

The question is how realistic is it when you sign with some small distributor that they will get your indie movie in what's left of stores, foreign distribution, broadcast?

In most cases it's extremely unrealistic because most of the filmmakers attracted to the very small distros don't make films compliant with broadcast standards or foreign distribution requirements to start with!

Here's an idea. Distribute yourself but instead hire a PR firm (if you don't want to promote it yourself). This way you don't get screwed by a dodgy distributor.

Correct ... instead, you can get screwed by a dodgy PR firm! Or, are you saying that all small distros are dodgy and all PR firms aren't?

G

 

[directorik]

Here's an idea. Distribute yourself but instead hire a PR firm (if you don't want to promote it yourself). This way you don't get screwed by a dodgy distributor.

Interesting.

So you pay a PR firm to do the marketing but you do not pay a
distributor to do the marketing. Either way you (the filmmaker)
are paying someone to do a job.

Best case I want a distributor to pay me upfront. But if that doesn't
happen I would hire a small movie distributor to promote my movie
before I would hire a PR firm. Public relations is very different than
movie promotion.

 

[Blade_Jones]

Sorry, I just don't get your logic! What "leverage" do you think you're going to get by negotiating "checks and balances" in your contract, if these distros "don't pay according to the terms" of the contract anyway?
The ONLY leverage you've got is the potential commercial value of your film and of course, that's the potential commercial value as a distro judges it, not what you think it's worth! If the only distros you and your friends have attracted are the ones who can only survive by being "dodgy" then there are only two possible explanations: 1. You and your friends have been exceptionally unlucky and you need to look at some different distros, or 2. Your film/s have so little commercial value that only dodgy distros would have any interest in them!

I know several filmmakers who've sold their copyrights and who had film attorneys scrutinize the contracts, I wouldn't want to name them here though. Your "guarantee" isn't worth a hill of beans! Also, you can shout "LICENSE" all you want, along with "expenses cap" and any other demands you wish but unless your film has good profit potential you don't have any leverage! So either the distro will tell you to accept the terms they are offering or get lost or, some of the dodgy distros might accept your terms but then not honour them.

In most cases it's extremely unrealistic because most of the filmmakers attracted to the very small distros don't make films compliant with broadcast standards or foreign distribution requirements to start with!


Correct ... instead, you can get screwed by a dodgy PR firm! Or, are you saying that all small distros are dodgy and all PR firms aren't?

G

You don't know anything about business. A PR firm is paid to do a job. There aren't a bunch of PR firms ripping people off. That's probably because they are not left to be judge and jury with your film revenues. You know exactly how much you paid them and they are hired to do a specific job.

""checks and balances" in your contract, if these distros "don't pay according to the terms" of the contract anyway?" -- It's called a bullet proof contract as opposed to a dodgy distributor's dummy contract.

Again this is an indie filmmaker forum -- not a Paramount Pictures forum. Indie filmmakers get ripped off all the time. Ask any entertainment lawyer. You are just an audio guy.

 

[trueindie]

You don't know anything about business.

You should really read what you're writing before you hit that submit button. The picture your posts paint does not really suggest you're an expert at business.

You are just an audio guy.

At least he's an audio guy. I'm pretty sure I'm a nothing guy. What exactly would you call yourself? And if you haven't gotten paid for your film, you're not a filmmaker quite yet. I'm an astronomer myself. I can tell you a bunch of things about the galaxies. But nobody's every paid me for my knowledge of astronomy. So far it's been a hobby.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. I'm just trying to tell you that nobody's going to agree with you until you make it happen. Until you make it happen, your ideas are just a point of view, just like my ideas, are just a point of view. Nobody has to agree. This may be indie filmmakers forum, but if you believe your movie looks better than Paranormal Activity, maybe you belong with Paramount.

Again, I apologize for posting this way, but I'm trying to get you to arrest yourself. You just made a movie. Think about how to market it, how to promote it, how to befriend everyone, how to "be-fan" everyone, so they watch your movie. Every other kind of thought and argument is a waste of time for a man/woman with a film to sell.

It's just my point of view.

 

[Blade_Jones]

You should really read what you're writing before you hit that submit button. The picture your posts paint does not really suggest you're an expert at business.

I've signed contracts with 3 traditional media distributors. I've also been presented with even more dummy contracts. I have friends and acquaintances who have signed about 10 media distribution contracts. Beside myself and friends of mine I've spoken with lawyers who paint the same picture about small media distributors. We've had posts in this forum from people who have dealt with dead beat distributors. Until you're been in the trenches then you don't know what kind of risk you are taking with small media distributors. Stick with astronomy or astrology before you hit the submit button.