What are distributors doing for indie today?

What are brick and mortar distributors doing for indie movies these days that is worth a hill of beans? After all ANYBODY can sign up with Amazon Advantage and have their DVD for sale on there. And last time I checked (although a few years ago) it was a one-time $750 charge to get your movie for sale digitally on iTunes and Amazon. Then we have the question of how robust are digital sales anyway? $750 is a LOT to fork over which is why I haven't done it yet.

I had a distributor offer to handle an indie movie of mine but I am very skeptical. I don't see any indie films in any of what's left of brick and mortar stores. So that leaves digital and DVD distribution to Amazon and iTunes basically. I CAN DO THAT MYSELF! And there's no free lunches in this world. If this distributor pays $750 to get my movie for sale on iTunes then they're simply going to deduct that cost before I see any revenues. Overall a distributor just seems like an extra middleman taking money out of my pocket. What do you think?
 
This exactly. You can distribute it yourself if you want, but unless you have deep pockets you will never compete with a decent distributor.

But then - would you not be seeing a similar amount of return anyway?

Isn't the costs to be recouped detailed in the contract? Is this rights for all markets?

To me it seems like you have two options:

Option 1: Hand your rights over to the distributor. Have the distributor market/distribute it. Your film ends up being seen by a lot of people, ends up in a few markets. Makes a bit of money. The distributor recoups their costs (they did spend a lot of money marketing it), then hand over the money to you.
You make back your production budget, more people have seen your film and more people know who you are. You've officially made a film that's been distributed and are therefore more likely to be picked up on another project.

Option 2: You pay out of your own pocket to get your film on iTunes. You attempt to market it yourself. A small amount of people see your film. You slowly but surely eventually make your production budget back. You then use that money to make your next film.

Of course, it all depends on the distributor. I'd be doing my research to make sure they're who I wanted to go with. Are they not paying you a fee for the rights?
I don't buy into this break even on this film and hope for better results on the next. And what exactly is a distributor going to do to market a movie?
Giving up my copyrights is not an option. You LICENSE rights. That's why this is a "dummy contract" that has been put before me. It also has no cap on expenses. With an open tab a distributor can get really creative about billing you against revenues. Office space rent, electric bill, salary for the owner, etc. I've seen people sign deals where they never saw a dime because the distributor was racking up expenses that were merely itemized as for example "office". How convenient! Seems like a great way to keep your business afloat. Sign a bunch of movies to pay for your expenses. I've also dealt with CD distributors who kept on paying themselves a nice salary but I got hung out to dry when the business was not profitable. I was kept in the dark about this until the very end. Never underestimate brick and mortar distributors.
 
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And what exactly is a distributor going to do to market a movie?

If you're not sure of what they can do for you (or even what they can do to screw you over), you probably shouldn't go through a distributor. It's like a director who doesn't know what a First AD can do for him while shooting. They're either your best asset or your worst nightmare, with some variance in between.

To answer your other points. A bad deal is a bad deal and you shouldn't sign a deal that is bad for you. It's really as simple as that. You do know there is a margin of negotiation with distributors right? If the distributor likes and wants to distribute your work, the first offer is just an offer. It's up to you to negotiate. Do what a producer does or get one who will. You may need to find another distributor who won't hang you out to dry if you can find one who will accept your film.

If you're only talking about online service offerings. You have another option. Create your own streaming web site and host your own damn video. Create your own payment systems etc. You won't have to give away any copyrights. You'll own them forever. Of course it may cost you time and money if you don't know how to do it yourself, but that's the price you pay.

After all that, you may need to consider if you have a distribution worthy film. Not all films are worth sinking marketing money into.
 
What are brick and mortar distributors doing for indie movies these days that is worth a hill of beans? After all ANYBODY can sign up with Amazon Advantage and have their DVD for sale on there. And last time I checked (although a few years ago) it was a one-time $750 charge to get your movie for sale digitally on iTunes and Amazon. Then we have the question of how robust are digital sales anyway? $750 is a LOT to fork over which is why I haven't done it yet.

I had a distributor offer to handle an indie movie of mine but I am very skeptical. I don't see any indie films in any of what's left of brick and mortar stores. So that leaves digital and DVD distribution to Amazon and iTunes basically. I CAN DO THAT MYSELF! And there's no free lunches in this world. If this distributor pays $750 to get my movie for sale on iTunes then they're simply going to deduct that cost before I see any revenues. Overall a distributor just seems like an extra middleman taking money out of my pocket. What do you think?

Isn't this a good thing though, cause 20 years ago, it was very hard to sell an indie movie, compared to now. I think of this as a blessing, even though it may be a small one. Plus a lot of people seem to watch movies on itunes nowadays.
 
On every Amazon and iTunes movie page, they suggest other movies purchased by customers. So if someone purchased Insidious 2 and my movie Outcall, another customer viewing Insidious 2 would be aware of my movie also. I've done very little marketing mainly posts on filmmaking websites and have sold about 250 downloads. I find this very encouraging.

Good to know you've had some success there - it suggests that being on these services can act as a force multiplier to your own marketing, as every sale increases the opportunities to reach new people through related purchase recommendations.

It seems like there's a hint of a possible marketing strategy there - the most important purchasers of your film would be people who purchase quite a few movies online, as it would get your film associated with more titles. If you can figure out a way to specifically target your marketing to these frequent buyers it could make your marketing efforts much more effective.

If you're only talking about online service offerings. You have another option. Create your own streaming web site and host your own damn video. Create your own payment systems etc. You won't have to give away any copyrights. You'll own them forever. Of course it may cost you time and money if you don't know how to do it yourself, but that's the price you pay.

I've actually considered this approach - but only because I do know how to do it myself. Hosting on Amazon S3 (no upfront or ongoing fees, just pay for bandwidth used) and using paypal's micropayments option it should cost less than $.50 per HD sale, half that if they pay from paypal funds and not a credit card or if they want SD.

Of course the drawback is you lose network effects like payperfilm described above - and it's not as convenient for someone watching on tv where an established VOD system lets them pay with an existing account and a single click. I think it might make a good option in parallel with the other options - you could sell a special edition with a lot of extras directly for your biggest fans, which means you could probably charge a little more (plus you're keeping more of the sale).

And, again, this only makes sense if you can do it yourself. It wouldn't cost me anything but time to do it, but if someone hired me to put a similar solution together it would cost thousands.

IDOM spits logic like Yoda.

Market, or market not - there is no distribution!
 
I discovered this company that distributes to iTunes http://bitmax.net/index.html
Tunecore referred me to them. Tunecore discontinued distributing video content back in December 2012. BitMax was the company that they used to distribute.

I still think that it's best to skip iTunes and just use Amazon Instant Video (via Create Space) for VOD. I ain't payin' $1,250 for the "privilege" to get on iTunes.
 
I discovered this company that distributes to iTunes http://bitmax.net/index.html
I still think that it's best to skip iTunes and just use Amazon Instant Video (via Create Space) for VOD. I ain't payin' $1,250 for the "privilege" to get on iTunes.

iTunes sells a lot of movies. 28 million Apple TVs have been sold and I venture to guess that people who have Apple TV are more likely to purchase a VOD. If you have a film that will pass Quality Control, it might be a mistake to skip iTunes. My film wouldn't pass QC, and I don't have the time and energy to fix it so I haven't gone the iTunes route. But on my next film, I will.
 
iTunes sells a lot of movies. 28 million Apple TVs have been sold and I venture to guess that people who have Apple TV are more likely to purchase a VOD. If you have a film that will pass Quality Control, it might be a mistake to skip iTunes. My film wouldn't pass QC, and I don't have the time and energy to fix it so I haven't gone the iTunes route. But on my next film, I will.
Why hasn't your film passed the quality test? Is it a technical issue or was it just too low budget?

Can't somebody with an Apple TV download and watch an Amazon Instant Video?
 
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Why hasn't your film passed the quality test? Is it a technical issue or was it just too low budget?

Can't somebody with an Apple TV download and watch an Amazon Instant Video?

I haven't submitted Outcall to a QC test but there are a few scenes that may be too dark and I'm certain the sound probably has some issues. I think it looks better than Paranormal Activity, but people like APE and Alcove Audio have me paranoid that my sound isn't up to professional standards :). So it's technical issues rather than artistic ones.
 
Can't somebody with an Apple TV download and watch an Amazon Instant Video?

They don't have an Amazon app for the apple tv yet. Probably won't any time soon - if they ever do it would be playback only; you'd have to buy the video from your browser, then go play it from the apple tv. It's the same reason they don't let you buy books on the kindle app for iphone/ipad - Apple wants 30% of sales on their platform, Amazon isn't willing to give up that much. Since there isn't an open app store for the apple tv yet (you have to be a partner with apple to get an app on there) I don't see it happening soon.

There are lots of other options though. I generally watch amazon streaming through my PS3, although my latest samsung tv has the app built in now. They also have apps for most of the other major streaming boxes.

Why hasn't your film passed the quality test? Is it a technical issue or was it just too low budget?

I'm not sure budget has anything to do with it if you can pass the technical requirements. I know two people who weren't able to pass QC because they shot 24-in-60i and failed to do a reverse 3:2 pulldown before editing, so it's now impossible for them to create a clean progressive master without going back and processing every shot manually and then reassembling the film.

Apple has a doc specifying the tech requirements (note this is not necessarily what you'll be submitting, but what your encoder will need to create from your master):

https://www.apple.com/itunes/lp-and-extras/docs/iTunes_VideoandAudio_Asset_Guide5.2.pdf

This blog post gives a good rundown of the type of issues they're looking for in the QC process:

https://threeofakind-themovie.com/-QC__for_iTunes.html

A lot of these are really minor things that are very easy to introduce inadvertently at various points in your post process - but most of them are also easy to avoid/correct if you know what you're looking for and are detail-oriented in your mastering process.
 
Apple has a doc specifying the tech requirements (note this is not necessarily what you'll be submitting, but what your encoder will need to create from your master):

https://www.apple.com/itunes/lp-and-extras/docs/iTunes_VideoandAudio_Asset_Guide5.2.pdf

This blog post gives a good rundown of the type of issues they're looking for in the QC process:

https://threeofakind-themovie.com/-QC__for_iTunes.html

A lot of these are really minor things that are very easy to introduce inadvertently at various points in your post process - but most of them are also easy to avoid/correct if you know what you're looking for and are detail-oriented in your mastering process.
Those are some helpful links.
And how does Amazon Instant Video work when you sign up with Create Space? Do they just pull the content off of your DVD?
 
I haven't been through the process with them, but that's what it sounds like - under submissions requirements on this page they list a DVD as the only acceptable submission format:

https://www.createspace.com/Products/VideoDownload/

Frankly that's disappointing to me - from a quality standpoint using a DVD as a master is a terrible idea. I guess that means you can't do HD either, since it's not supported on DVD. Basically it means any independent film submitted through createspace is going to look pretty bad quality-wise in comparison to commercial films. The primary advantage to doing it this way seems to be that it's basically free, other than that it seems like a poor choice.
 
I haven't been through the process with them, but that's what it sounds like - under submissions requirements on this page they list a DVD as the only acceptable submission format:

https://www.createspace.com/Products/VideoDownload/

Frankly that's disappointing to me - from a quality standpoint using a DVD as a master is a terrible idea. I guess that means you can't do HD either, since it's not supported on DVD. Basically it means any independent film submitted through createspace is going to look pretty bad quality-wise in comparison to commercial films. The primary advantage to doing it this way seems to be that it's basically free, other than that it seems like a poor choice.
I've never actually used Amazon's Instant Video service. Do people generally watch these movies on their computers? The quality can't be that bad if people are watching on their computers.
 
Don't know, I rarely watch anything longer than a few minutes on my computer. Everything else I watch on tv, or occasionally my iPad if I've got a long flight.

Also I'm not saying you can't get better quality through amazon instant, just that it appears you can't do it through createspace. You probably have to go through someone like Distribber and pay a fee similar to the process for getting into itunes. That takes it from being a relatively simple and free option to being more expensive and complex - although their QC process is apparently far less stringent than iTunes.
 
Yes - the link I posted a couple posts back covers that. The issue is you have to send them a DVD as the source file. This means you're limited to standard definition, and it's going to be an MPEG2 file at 6.5Mbit/s (or lower if your film runs over 90 minutes) which they then recompress for the streaming version, hardly an ideal situation in terms of quality. I can't find any information about whether they support anamorphic for widescreen movies; hopefully they do as if not it would really be a bad solution.

EDIT: Whoa. When searching for "createspace anamorphic support" on google this post comes up in the first page of results... and I just posted it a couple minutes ago. Maybe there really is no spoon?
 
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I don't buy into this break even on this film and hope for better results on the next.

Well, what exactly do you buy into? You seem to think that you can make a movie for peanuts, retain all the rights, place limitations/caps on distributors' costs, get fully itemised billing, pay next to nothing for distribution and what, make a good profit when there's a glut of similar products all competing for a share of what is a tiny market?

And what exactly is a distributor going to do to market a movie?

You're joking, right?

Giving up my copyrights is not an option. You LICENSE rights.

Having the copyright allows the distributor to market however they want, whenever they want and to whoever they want, in order to sell/syndicate the film and make a profit. With a license, the distributor would obviously be limited by the terms and duration of that license, which would provide far fewer options for turning a profit. It would also of course provide an unscrupulous distributor with more opportunity to abuse the filmmaker.

I've seen people sign deals where they never saw a dime because the distributor was racking up expenses that were merely itemized as for example "office". How convenient! Seems like a great way to keep your business afloat.

Yes, it is convenient. If you want fully itemised expenses, that would be less convenient, will take more accounting/bookkeeping time and therefore cost more money. Ultimately, distributors are businesses and the priority of any business is to stay afloat! This is obviously an axiom but not apparently some amateur filmmakers seem to think that distributors should effectively be philanthropic charities which exist solely to help the no/lo budget indie film industry (and of course them personally). The very title of this thread indicates this type of thinking.

A distributor offers their distribution service to an individual filmmaker based on their judgement of the probability of making a profit with that film and of how much profit. That probability is obviously affected by the terms of the contract with the filmmaker. It is of course entirely up to you whether or not you would consider surrendering your copyrights, demanding fully itemised expenses or demanding anything else you desire but of course the more you demand, the lower you're making "that probability". Most/Many amateur filmmakers value their films in terms of well they think they did with the time and effort they put in to overcome the difficulties of completing a film, rather than in terms of the actual market value of their film. With this in mind, the point at which any demands made by the filmmaker tips "that probability" into the red usually occurs far earlier than most amateur filmmakers seem to imagine. At that point, the only option left to the filmmaker is self distribution or a distributor with a business model which does not require a film to make any money for them to stay in business.

I haven't submitted Outcall to a QC test but there are a few scenes that may be too dark and I'm certain the sound probably has some issues. I think it looks better than Paranormal Activity, but people like APE and Alcove Audio have me paranoid that my sound isn't up to professional standards :). So it's technical issues rather than artistic ones.

Be careful with what Alcove and I say! :) Or rather, what Alcove and I say needs to be put in context. Professional standards isn't a single thing, it's a very wide range of things. When I say "professional standards" I am referring to British/American network TV and commercial theatrical standards and even that definition is very wide because it covers everything from relatively tiny budget commercial TV documentaries all the way up to Hollywood blockbusters. Youtube has no standards, which means it contains everything from the crappiest home video sound quality all the way up to top pro quality. As we move up the food chain from Youtube, so that lower boundary increases, in order to differentiate the platform's content from Youtube. So while iTunes has a higher minimum standard than Youtube, it's not as high as the requirements for say network TV content. This minimum standard is a moving goal post however, as more players enter the VOD market they and the existing players have to reassess their positioning in that market.

In other words, you may not have to reach what I (or Alcove) consider to be professional commercial standards because iTunes does not exclusively host content of professional commercial standards, it also hosts a lot of content below that level. So really you should seek the advice of an aggregator familiar with iTunes current requirements/expectations, rather than judging whether you are likely to pass iTunes' QC based on what you have picked from my posts (which are relative to commercial content distribution).

G
 
Having the copyright allows the distributor to market however they want, whenever they want and to whoever they want, in order to sell/syndicate the film and make a profit. With a license, the distributor would obviously be limited by the terms and duration of that license, which would provide far fewer options for turning a profit. It would also of course provide an unscrupulous distributor with more opportunity to abuse the filmmaker.

Yes, it is convenient. If you want fully itemised expenses, that would be less convenient, will take more accounting/bookkeeping time and therefore cost more money. Ultimately, distributors are businesses and the priority of any business is to stay afloat!
Who are you kidding???!!! You've obviously have never had media distributed by small distributors. You NEVER sign over your copyrights, especially to these small distros. NEVER! I've gone to court with distributor clowns. I have friends who have too. I know of others who wanted to take distros to court but couldn't afford it. The first and best line of defense is to stop the shady business in its tracks in the contractual terms. Sign away your copyrights and you have lost HUGE leverage in stopping fraud other than to spend tens of thousands in the nightmare known as a court of law.

A real distribution agreement is to license rights and for a set term. Also caps on costs should be in place and there should be well defined explanation of what the distro can recoup as far as expenses otherwise anything is possible -- rent, salary for the CEO, etc. If you don't demand an itemized accounting in the contract then you'll get broad Hollywood accounting such as Office: $2,346.00. "Office" could entail anything. You could get double billing -- bill you for the same thing as filmmaker Y and Z. All of this is elementary.
 
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