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tungsten and fluorescent lighting
- Thread starter Libby
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I don't mean to sidetrack your thread, but I gotta say Libby, you seem like a real go-getter relentlessly tackling the craft an inch at a time and learning all you can and using the occasional set-backs to learn even more. (It’s great to see that kind of ambition.) 
-Thanks-
-Thanks-
I have that personality trait. The thing is, I am learning the importance of each part in film making as I go along. To be frank, I initially thought the most important thing was the camera but am learning that that actually is the least important. I could make do with any camera so long as the sound and lighting is good - not to mention storyline of course.
Tungsten is lightbulbs, fluorescent is tube lighting - brightness can be measured in Kelvin or as a temperature - fluorescent tubes are cool to the touch whereas tungsten bulbs get hot - the temperature of the light affects the colour of the light emitted - because of the ways our eyes work, they compensate somewhat for the difference in light colours - cameras don't do this so you can end up with an odd colour tint to your footage. Typically we use White Balance to correct this (telling the camera or colour correction software what white 'is') - sometimes you'll use gels on your lights to create a certain feel (i.e. fluorescent lighting).
Well. Huge differences. Technically speaking they are different kinds of instruments, creating light in different ways. We'll skip that and get to the parts that are of interest, use in film making.
"Tungsten" is sort of a generic term these days that can refer to any light in the 3200K color temperature range. If that's confusing, then I recommend looking over this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature
You'll notice that 3200 falls in the range of an "incandescent light bulb." Household incandescent live in this territory, but will vary. 3200K is what "pro" lights are balanced to create when shooting "tungsten."
I'll skip over daylight (5600K typically), but the wiki should cover that well. 3200K and 5600K are probably the most common light temperatures you will see when shooting.
Now, with fluorescent light things get a bit dodgy. Are you talking about CFL style lighting, or the sort of fluorescent light you would see in a typical office building? There are minor differences, but they all have varying levels of one particular problem:
Green Spike.
Standard fluorescent light does not give an even curve on a spectrometer. There are spikes at specific wavelengths that create our interpretation of the color of the light. Particularly green spikes the hardest. This is true even in "balanced" CFL bulbs which are supposed to give a specific color temperature. (2700K and 5000K are common now a days) Even though these bulbs have a measurable temperature output, they do spike specific wavelengths, and still spike strongly in green.
This, as you may have guessed looks TERRIBLE when lighting people. Regular office/household flourescents are the worst. There are gels specifically to remove the green from this sort of light. Interestingly, this is the use of the "tint" metadata feature of the RED camera. "Tint" in this instance is actually a magenta/green slider allowing you to adjust for this sort of thing when post processing the RAW footage.
Among all the schools of thought and the varying techniques for getting beautiful skin tones, the one thing that seems to be universal is that the green spike in flourescent light is just brutal.
If you want an example of what this sort of light looks like to a tungsten balanced camera, watch the drug store scene of Natural Born Killers.
That said...
There are lots of CFL lighting tools available these days - very interesting. All of the bulbs I tested recently still had a small amount of green spike to them. Not really enough to worry about gelling them, but if I were using those exclusively I would probably adjust out some of the green in one way or another.
Also something else problematic I ran into when looking at CFL solutions:
I could find "high output" bulbs (up to 300w equivalent), let's call that feature A.
I could find dimmable CFL bulbs (feature B)
I could find "balanced" CFL bulbs (Feature C)
I could not find all three (A, B, and C) in a single bulb. I could find A and C, or A and B, but not all of the above. The bulbs that were dimmable were useless from a color temperature perspective. The bulbs with a semi-standard color temperature (or at least consistent so I could predict their usage) were not available as dimmable high output bulbs. That got sort of frustrating.
Regarding safe for indoor/outdoor use - that is more a function of the equipment than the light bulb itself. Poke around at some of the "Chinese knock-off" lighting threads on this board. Darty's posts in those threads about what to look for in a lighting instrument are basically canon when it comes to safety.
Aegis mentions an important point that I forgot to add - we see things using eyes that constantly adapt to lighting conditions. Cameras cannot do this, especially with color temperature.
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EDIT: I do realize that OP is comparing Tugsten to FL.. thought this might be useful anyway.
In very simple terms, the "white" part of Sunlight is blue, while the "white" part of tungsten light is orange. If your using ALL tungsten or all natural light you just set the White Balance on your camera accordingly, but many times we need to mix our light sources up.. At some point you'll want to change all the sun light to orange or all the tungsten light to blue.
Having a few of those Home Improvement Store work lights on tripods are good all around tools.
They have to be "color balanced" for outdoor use, a simple piece of "Change To Blue" (CTB) lighting gel fixes that right up. Using the CTB gel basically cuts the light output in HALF, so you'll need MORE lights, which I why I said a few..
When indoors you might have Outdoor (blue) light coming in the windows, so even though your indoors, you still have to contend with the outdoor light...
In this INDOOR shot, you can see the OUTDOOR light is the biggest light source. The lights used to light the boys face are tungsten (orange) work lights with a Change To Blue (CTB) gel filter like this..
(http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/44119-REG/Rosco_RS320211_3202_Full_Blue.html)
You'll note the regular incandescent light in the background is casting an orange light on what is a white wall... I did NOT correct that light bulb, the camera was white balanced to OUTDOOR so the "white light" cast onto the white wall looks warm and orangey.. I liked it.. which points out that you can mix your light temperatures, and it can be pleasing..
In very simple terms, the "white" part of Sunlight is blue, while the "white" part of tungsten light is orange. If your using ALL tungsten or all natural light you just set the White Balance on your camera accordingly, but many times we need to mix our light sources up.. At some point you'll want to change all the sun light to orange or all the tungsten light to blue.
Having a few of those Home Improvement Store work lights on tripods are good all around tools.
They have to be "color balanced" for outdoor use, a simple piece of "Change To Blue" (CTB) lighting gel fixes that right up. Using the CTB gel basically cuts the light output in HALF, so you'll need MORE lights, which I why I said a few..
When indoors you might have Outdoor (blue) light coming in the windows, so even though your indoors, you still have to contend with the outdoor light...
In this INDOOR shot, you can see the OUTDOOR light is the biggest light source. The lights used to light the boys face are tungsten (orange) work lights with a Change To Blue (CTB) gel filter like this..
(http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/44119-REG/Rosco_RS320211_3202_Full_Blue.html)
You'll note the regular incandescent light in the background is casting an orange light on what is a white wall... I did NOT correct that light bulb, the camera was white balanced to OUTDOOR so the "white light" cast onto the white wall looks warm and orangey.. I liked it.. which points out that you can mix your light temperatures, and it can be pleasing..
Full CTB cuts the light in half almost two times over (1 2/3 stop loss)… so a 1000 watt light with Full CTB is like having a 330 watt daylight balanced light
Yes, CTB CTO come in different strengths like 1/4, 1/2, 1/8...
each fraction representing the strength compared to a full one, to be used according to the situation or taste.
each fraction representing the strength compared to a full one, to be used according to the situation or taste.
Lots of good info above, but I'll chime in my two bits:
If cost is an issue, go tungsten.
Kinos are beautiful florescent fixtures that can reproduce either 3200 or 5600 color temp (by swapping out tubes), there's almost no heat, low amperage, and they're pre-diffused by their very nature. On the down side, they're pretty spendy, not very powerful (comparatively), and non focusable.
Tungsten fixtures are the opposite: 3200K (without a CTB), very hot, with a comparatively high power requirement. But they can be gotten much cheaper, are focusable (depending on the reflector and lens), and are very bright.
Best of all worlds are HMI fixtures. They are super bright, 5600K balanced, and focusable. But they are more expensive than either of the above.
A lot to learn! Thanks.
Can anyone recommend a light kit for indoor use (and a little outdoor too)? I am using the worklights but am limited because I wanted to use an umberella to stop the light bouncing off the walls...
I am using worklights which are too hot and strong...I don't want anything that will blow fuses.
There are some projects I want to work on this winter so I don't mind investing in something lightwise but not too expensive. I am not planning on filming groups of people at a time but rather one person at a time.
Merci.
Can anyone recommend a light kit for indoor use (and a little outdoor too)? I am using the worklights but am limited because I wanted to use an umberella to stop the light bouncing off the walls...
I am using worklights which are too hot and strong...I don't want anything that will blow fuses.
There are some projects I want to work on this winter so I don't mind investing in something lightwise but not too expensive. I am not planning on filming groups of people at a time but rather one person at a time.
Merci.
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I checked out Kinos. Right now they would be too high for me..thanks as it is something in the future I can checkout.
I guess I can spend up to $200 on some basic light kit. Something for use in a basement.
As far as bulbs...outside of the worklight I have...I am using 100w because that is the strongest I could find (haven't gone to HD yet though)
Gel filters I would love to fool around with...but I am still lost on the whole lighting thing. I know what I don't like when I see something, I just don't know how to fix it. I will have to make do with what I can invest in now.
I guess I can spend up to $200 on some basic light kit. Something for use in a basement.
As far as bulbs...outside of the worklight I have...I am using 100w because that is the strongest I could find (haven't gone to HD yet though)
Gel filters I would love to fool around with...but I am still lost on the whole lighting thing. I know what I don't like when I see something, I just don't know how to fix it. I will have to make do with what I can invest in now.
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http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=9597
Peruse (some of the images are old and gone, but many remain), use and add to this discussion of lighting setups
Peruse (some of the images are old and gone, but many remain), use and add to this discussion of lighting setups
Man Knightly,
I really love that old thread, got to find a way to help revive it.
Sorry, but I'm not the best at finding inexpensive gear. Lots of threads with suggestions around here.
Take a look at the last post in the thread Knightly posted. You'll get some good examples of how folks control light spill (bouncing off the walls) using cloth, solids, etc. Not sure than an umbrella is what you are seeking. It will give a directionality to a light, of sorts, but spill control is a lot easier with "flags."
As far as "I don't want anything that will blow fuses." Um, yeah. How familiar are you with household AC circuits?
Basically, you need to be able to calculate what a given circuit can handle, based on line voltage and amps at the fuse. A 20A fuse on household 110v is going to handle more wattage than a 5A fuse on household 110v.
Here is the simplified version. This doesn't take into account power factor correction or basically anything else, but it will give you rough numbers that IF YOU STAY UNDER THE NUMBER you should be fine.
Volts X Amps == Wattage.
>>>>>> Technically speaking, Volts X Amps == VoltAmps. VA*(power factor correction) == Watts. That's a digression, just lower your wattage result to 60-75% of VA and you should be fine. <<<<<<
So, if you have a 20A circuit on 110v, then your hypothetical wattage limit is around 2200W, bring that down to account for PFC and you'd probably be safe running 1800-2000W of light on that circuit.
If you have a 5A fuse at 110v, then you're looking at 550W uncorrected, around 450W or so safely on that circuit.
So, armed with a little bit of math, go find your fuse box. Hopefully it is decently labeled so you can determine:
How many circuits?
Fuse amperage for each?
Where they go?
How many sockets on each one?
What devices are currently running where (like your fridge, roommate's 750w power supply having uber-gaming computer, whatever)
Etc.
Sorry for the long answer. The short answer is that just about ANY light can potentially blow a fuse, it depends on available house power and how the load is distributed. Lights that are powerful enough to almost guarantee a blown fuse are likely out of your price range. (And probably expecting 220v or even 3-phase power)
Hope that helps.
Cross-post Edit:
Libby, I noticed in the umbrella thread you were asking about using them to bounce light, rather than to focus it. That makes sense. Sorry, I've been thinking of these things a lot lately. I love the look they create and am trying to decide if it is worth a DIY solution.
http://www.b2pro.com/lighting/focus_umbrellas/index.php
Carry on. Although, looking at your question, you might get some mileage from few simple solids to shape the light. In that thread, a diagram or a picture would definitely help.
I really love that old thread, got to find a way to help revive it.
Sorry, but I'm not the best at finding inexpensive gear. Lots of threads with suggestions around here.
Take a look at the last post in the thread Knightly posted. You'll get some good examples of how folks control light spill (bouncing off the walls) using cloth, solids, etc. Not sure than an umbrella is what you are seeking. It will give a directionality to a light, of sorts, but spill control is a lot easier with "flags."
As far as "I don't want anything that will blow fuses." Um, yeah. How familiar are you with household AC circuits?
Basically, you need to be able to calculate what a given circuit can handle, based on line voltage and amps at the fuse. A 20A fuse on household 110v is going to handle more wattage than a 5A fuse on household 110v.
Here is the simplified version. This doesn't take into account power factor correction or basically anything else, but it will give you rough numbers that IF YOU STAY UNDER THE NUMBER you should be fine.
Volts X Amps == Wattage.
>>>>>> Technically speaking, Volts X Amps == VoltAmps. VA*(power factor correction) == Watts. That's a digression, just lower your wattage result to 60-75% of VA and you should be fine. <<<<<<
So, if you have a 20A circuit on 110v, then your hypothetical wattage limit is around 2200W, bring that down to account for PFC and you'd probably be safe running 1800-2000W of light on that circuit.
If you have a 5A fuse at 110v, then you're looking at 550W uncorrected, around 450W or so safely on that circuit.
So, armed with a little bit of math, go find your fuse box. Hopefully it is decently labeled so you can determine:
How many circuits?
Fuse amperage for each?
Where they go?
How many sockets on each one?
What devices are currently running where (like your fridge, roommate's 750w power supply having uber-gaming computer, whatever)
Etc.
Sorry for the long answer. The short answer is that just about ANY light can potentially blow a fuse, it depends on available house power and how the load is distributed. Lights that are powerful enough to almost guarantee a blown fuse are likely out of your price range. (And probably expecting 220v or even 3-phase power)
Hope that helps.
Cross-post Edit:
Libby, I noticed in the umbrella thread you were asking about using them to bounce light, rather than to focus it. That makes sense. Sorry, I've been thinking of these things a lot lately. I love the look they create and am trying to decide if it is worth a DIY solution.
http://www.b2pro.com/lighting/focus_umbrellas/index.php
Carry on. Although, looking at your question, you might get some mileage from few simple solids to shape the light. In that thread, a diagram or a picture would definitely help.
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Im a handy person, so most my advice assumes a certain amount of DIY zen.. keep that in mind..
I would still go with work lights, they are powerful but are made for the average home owner to use and are generally safe. Use only HEAVY duty extension cords and plug each light fixture into a different outlet and you'll almost never have fuse issues. A blown fuse is a GOOD thing, it prevents worse damage and fire, so be grateful the fuse pops when it does.
find some old tripods or drum cymbal stands to hold some bounce cards at a safe distance from the work lights.. use these for control. Also, look into the DIY barn doors for work light.. always wear heat resistant gloves when working with the work lights, they get hot fast.
I would still go with work lights, they are powerful but are made for the average home owner to use and are generally safe. Use only HEAVY duty extension cords and plug each light fixture into a different outlet and you'll almost never have fuse issues. A blown fuse is a GOOD thing, it prevents worse damage and fire, so be grateful the fuse pops when it does.
find some old tripods or drum cymbal stands to hold some bounce cards at a safe distance from the work lights.. use these for control. Also, look into the DIY barn doors for work light.. always wear heat resistant gloves when working with the work lights, they get hot fast.
Multiple outlets in a room are generally all on the same circuit... so separate outlets isn't always your safest bet... separate rooms are generally on separate circuits... if you don't know how thick a circuit is, assume 1500 watts max (3x500w or 1k + 500w) gives plenty of options on a single circuit... and accounts for the circuit already having some load on it (as most household circuits are 20amp).
Get a circuit tester and a tone generator so you can tone out a circuit and see what outlets are connected to what other outlets in a house -- while you scout if possible so you can plan your lighting from the get go... I never go anywhere on a set without at least a continuity tester though, just to see if power is getting where I need it and help to trouble shoot problems quickly.
Get a circuit tester and a tone generator so you can tone out a circuit and see what outlets are connected to what other outlets in a house -- while you scout if possible so you can plan your lighting from the get go... I never go anywhere on a set without at least a continuity tester though, just to see if power is getting where I need it and help to trouble shoot problems quickly.