The death of DSLR?
- Thread starter Cracker Funk
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The guys I do shorts with have a canon 60d with some nice canon primes and other goodies like follow focus etc. This camera as far as i'm aware means all the extras are still valid. After discussing it the decision was to hang on and see how this pans out. There are worries about rolling shutter, power supply and the sensor size being 4/3. Also this is going to be one of those products that's a massive wake up call for others (cough cannon*) and they may come up with something to compete with this... gona wait and see what happens in the aftermath.
Funny. I made that exact point on another thread a month or so back and was dog piled on for wanting such a thing.
Guess I can't win for trying...
I was going to write a long explanation but I'll just sum it up: none of these major companies care about this.
BMD isn't taking money out of their pockets. The people who want or actually need this will buy it and already probably own a Canon or Panasonic or Sony camera. LIke Canon doesn't win anyway? They put an EF mount on it... Canon glass. The majority of sales OF DSLRS are still shooters, not from the niche of no-budget filmmakers.
Only way Canon is gonna give two is if this camera proliferates studio shoots as B-cam to the king-of-cams, Alexa. Which, I imagine it will. And even then, it just means they'll lower the price of the 1DC, which will STILL be out of the range of most no-budget filmmakers.
BMD positioned this as a cinema camera, and they openly state that it's to compliment Alexa, etc. high end cameras. They know their target, it's just a low enough price to where some of us may partake.
I didn't hesitate at all getting my order in. Judging by the response online and in person here in the Angeles, the backorder wait is going to be a long long long one.
BMD isn't taking money out of their pockets. The people who want or actually need this will buy it and already probably own a Canon or Panasonic or Sony camera. LIke Canon doesn't win anyway? They put an EF mount on it... Canon glass. The majority of sales OF DSLRS are still shooters, not from the niche of no-budget filmmakers.
Only way Canon is gonna give two is if this camera proliferates studio shoots as B-cam to the king-of-cams, Alexa. Which, I imagine it will. And even then, it just means they'll lower the price of the 1DC, which will STILL be out of the range of most no-budget filmmakers.
BMD positioned this as a cinema camera, and they openly state that it's to compliment Alexa, etc. high end cameras. They know their target, it's just a low enough price to where some of us may partake.
I didn't hesitate at all getting my order in. Judging by the response online and in person here in the Angeles, the backorder wait is going to be a long long long one.
I wonder if FD lenses could be adapted. FD could not be adapted to Canon EF mount becuase the mirror was in the way and you could not put the lens far enough inside, but this cam has the sensor inline like the GH2. Maybe they will offer a M43 mount option?
And..? There have been amazing movies made on S16, and even standard 16. Everyone gets bogged down in sensor size and all the rest of it and at the end of the day, up until the 5Dmkii, you couldn't shoot S35 unless you shot film. The democratisation of the film/video industry has created a bunch of spoilt tech-heads who complain because the latest incarnation of a $3k camera doesn't have features that are in $20k cameras.
<$400? for a 'cinema' camera? Dreaming...
Sure, if you're used to shooting on your iPhone... There's a reason cinema cameras have a certain style and form factor, and there's a reason people are still shooting Red One, even though the Epic is out at a similar price point. The Epic has issues, not the least of which is it's form factor. Fine if it's on a remote head or if you're using two in a 3D rig, but on it's own it's difficult. There's a reason television cameras (for example) have been shoulder-mounted and styled similarly for the past 10, 20, 30 or so years and that's not simply because they haven't had the technology to make them smaller (obviously). I can see this being used as a crasah-cam, helmet-cam etc. because of it's small size, but I can't really see it being used in high-end productions. Yes, it isn't aimed at high end productions, evidenced by it's price, size, form, and the fact that it has an EF mount. Sure it's radical, but practical?
+1.
There's no way that Canon are going to lower prices, or bring in a competitive product because they now have a high-end line to protect. This is evidenced by the $15k 4k DSLR. You really think they're going to bring in a $4k product as good as or better than their $20k cinema camera? And effectively kill off any customer base the C300/500 had?
I also don't think this will proliferate as a B-cam to the Alexa. We're yet to see much real-world usage and either way, the BMD CC has 2.5k sensor with an EF mount in a tiny body with a touchscreen and integrated battery recording onto SSDs.. Possibly has major rolling shutter issues (from what I've heard in the prototype) and quite possibly highlight exposure and noise issues... Its hardly a good match for a real cinema camera in the Alexa - proper form factor and size, properly weighted, EVF, PL mount, 3.5k sensor, SxS recording format, V-Lock batteries, ProRes 4:4:4 (BMD is 4:2:2, no?), looks like film, rated at 800ISO, rolling shutter issues very much diminished... If anything was going to be a B-cam to the Alexa, I'd have said the Sony F3.. It hasn't. I see the BMD as a better B-cam fit to the Red over the Alexa, but if you're shooting Red on high budget, you can afford a second Red as your B-cam. Maybe the lower-budget Scarlet productions will use this as a B-cam. I see the BMD being used as possibly a personal cam for those bloggers and casual 'out-side work' shooters, as well as a camera for 'run-and-gun' types.. Good quality, small factor, easy setup and heaps of metadata. Great for run and gun and doco shooters. Can't see its place in a studio.
That said, I'd certainly use one and it does help pave the way for better lower-priced cameras. It sucks for the D-Bolex guys... I just think people get a little bit over-excited over low priced cameras as if they're going to change the world. I saw it with DSLRs and now seeing it a little with this.. I'm sure it will be good little performer but at the end of the day, it's only a camera and good story wins out over sensor size, recording format, resolution etc any day. People will watch a great story shot on a crap camera, they won't watch crap shot on an amazing camera. As well, there's a reason studios choose to shoot on Alexa rather than Red or DSLR. For that same reason, they'll choose Alexa over this. It's not just about resolution. Shooting at 10k in 25bit raw isn't what people are using the Alexa for - the Epic has it beaten hands down on pure resolution with 5k raw vs 3.5k 4:4:4 ProRes Log-C. And yet, the Alexa is still the god of digital cinema even though it's double or triple the price. And even Alexa is being used as B-cam on 35mm shoots...
I suppose my main point here is, it's not all about resolution. I just hope it doesn't breed another DSLR-style zealousy where the owners vehemently argue that their camera is better than anything out there, even cinema cameras because they get used for cinema movies.
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Pretty cool indeed.
However, if what this poster says is true, you may want to take it into consideration.
"I can guess at how they've done it, they've used there usual home stereo build quality for equipment sold as pro gear. Reports are that the case might be a satisfying metal, but the video connectors (and the TRS 1/4 phone jacks too?) are mounted to the circuit board, not to the chassis. How many daily reconnects will that last before failure? And the power plug is not locking. That might be fine for little boxes that are used in edit bay where the connection is made once and left alone for months. But this is a camera.
Hope fully this is just a prototype build, and the shipping production models will be better constructed. Past experience with BMD doesn't give me a lot of hope in that regard though."
However, if what this poster says is true, you may want to take it into consideration.
"I can guess at how they've done it, they've used there usual home stereo build quality for equipment sold as pro gear. Reports are that the case might be a satisfying metal, but the video connectors (and the TRS 1/4 phone jacks too?) are mounted to the circuit board, not to the chassis. How many daily reconnects will that last before failure? And the power plug is not locking. That might be fine for little boxes that are used in edit bay where the connection is made once and left alone for months. But this is a camera.
Hope fully this is just a prototype build, and the shipping production models will be better constructed. Past experience with BMD doesn't give me a lot of hope in that regard though."
Haha, thanks Kholi.
Because of price point, you can't honestly compare this with Alexa, RED or the higher end Sony's. You can, and should, but it's under $3k. The direct comparison is the 5D, and then some of the cheaper DSLR's.
That said, I did notice the smaller sensor. It was in a bright room and I didn't get to play with the aperture, but I didn't get to see the DOF quite as shallow as I'd like with the longer lens mounted on mine.
Only having 3 ISO options means that you'll want some quality ND for sure to get the iris open if you like shallow DOF.
One other thing I just remembered, small but worth noting, is that there are only 3 white balance options. Tungsten, fluorescent and daylight. If you're used to cranking to the exact color tempura for dimmed light or shade or whatever, you'll find yourself needing to gel lights more to compensate.
Agree to disagree about form factor. The Alexa is hardly traditional, same with the RED One. Both need accessories or a rail system to get it up on your shoulder, the big form factor difference being about 54lbs. If heavy=good, then maybe there are some lead cases or rails that can make it feel more like home. Having a small, high quality camera is amazing. Shane Hulrburt was talking about using DSLRs (and heavily promoting the 1D-C) but was demoing several shots that for a "traditional" form factor you'd have to take out a wall or build a false floor to pull off. Add a rail system and a follow focus and you can make a small camera build up shaped whatever is best for the situation, be it shoulder mount or man-cam or hidden or bare bones to get you inches away from the talent. In one shot, he sat in the trunk of a Prius cab, controlled a 1D on a slider to get te two actors in the backseat and the cab driver while the first AC hid in the front passenger seat with a wireless Follow focus and the director was curled up in the rear floorboard directing actors. To do a similar shot with an Alexa would mean pulling the back windshield off and mounting the car on a trailer.
This is a fantastic, cheap camera. It does 24p (up to 30) for 2k or 1080p output fantastic for next to nothing, but if you need higher res or a still camera as well or faster framerates then look elsewhere.
Because of price point, you can't honestly compare this with Alexa, RED or the higher end Sony's. You can, and should, but it's under $3k. The direct comparison is the 5D, and then some of the cheaper DSLR's.
That said, I did notice the smaller sensor. It was in a bright room and I didn't get to play with the aperture, but I didn't get to see the DOF quite as shallow as I'd like with the longer lens mounted on mine.
Only having 3 ISO options means that you'll want some quality ND for sure to get the iris open if you like shallow DOF.
One other thing I just remembered, small but worth noting, is that there are only 3 white balance options. Tungsten, fluorescent and daylight. If you're used to cranking to the exact color tempura for dimmed light or shade or whatever, you'll find yourself needing to gel lights more to compensate.
Agree to disagree about form factor. The Alexa is hardly traditional, same with the RED One. Both need accessories or a rail system to get it up on your shoulder, the big form factor difference being about 54lbs. If heavy=good, then maybe there are some lead cases or rails that can make it feel more like home. Having a small, high quality camera is amazing. Shane Hulrburt was talking about using DSLRs (and heavily promoting the 1D-C) but was demoing several shots that for a "traditional" form factor you'd have to take out a wall or build a false floor to pull off. Add a rail system and a follow focus and you can make a small camera build up shaped whatever is best for the situation, be it shoulder mount or man-cam or hidden or bare bones to get you inches away from the talent. In one shot, he sat in the trunk of a Prius cab, controlled a 1D on a slider to get te two actors in the backseat and the cab driver while the first AC hid in the front passenger seat with a wireless Follow focus and the director was curled up in the rear floorboard directing actors. To do a similar shot with an Alexa would mean pulling the back windshield off and mounting the car on a trailer.
This is a fantastic, cheap camera. It does 24p (up to 30) for 2k or 1080p output fantastic for next to nothing, but if you need higher res or a still camera as well or faster framerates then look elsewhere.
While I would've termed it a bit more friendly, I do agree with you. The sensor size thing is pretty interesting to read. The same people who say, in a nut shell, that you don't need this and that just a good story are the same ones that refuse to use anything less than Full Frame or APS-C.
It's funny to read. And, yet, there are still major motion pictures being shot out on S16 and 2/3" Sensors. Not all, but plenty enough to justify the medium's stay.
Here, we have a larger sensor than that, but it's inadequate? Haha. Well, I guess!
From someone who bounces back and forth between no budget and large budget, and having had chats with some of the guys that run bigger rental houses here about it, here's the simpler version of why it probably will:
Blackmagic is embedded within the workflow of nearly every show shooting and finishing RED or Alexa.
Despite what may seem strange, the camera still totes 13 stops of Dynamic Range and fits right into that workflow at either LOG ProRes (not just ProRes) or 2.5K CinemaDNG, with no hiccups.
Add to that the tiny (even if awkward) box that it comes in and you've basically just presented a Producers AND working DP's dream b, c, and d cam, crash cam, etc. The F3 is a large, large camera and to get the best out of it, you have to make it even larger (external recorder).
That also makes it expensive.
IMO, if you want to gauge how a camera will fit into a studio system, call out to NY or LA's popular rental houses. See how many they ordered of that camera.
That will tell you where it's headed, and I know one camera house that already has twenty units pre-ordered.
It's less about comparing it to Alexa, and more about where a company designs the camera to fit. BMD's mission statement is very very clear, you can kind of gauge that by who their beta tester(s) were, and it wasn't the usual no-budget heros.
ISO isn't that important, or even useful when dealing with RAW. It's basically about feeding the sensor the right amount of light for where the ISO's balanced, and they're working on making it native 800, which is as sensitive as it gets today.
White balance also isn't very important. RAW workflow is about manipulating these details in post. Although I wager there'll be custom adjustments, again, if you're coloring raw then it won't make much of a difference.
In my early days, working with RED, I forgot to white balance to daylight and walked outside with a Tungsten WB. Super blue image. I thought I had botched an entire setup because the REDColor2 was showing me that "this is all blue."
Then I remembered "wait, it's raw", so I removed the REDColor lut, shifted the white balance and it was all perfect.
The same should apply here.
I'm with you on this one. Traditional is kind of a word that gets tossed around nostalgically. If things were all about traditional then DSLRs wouldn't have gone as far as they have in studio and major motion picture. Neither would RED as a whole.
Indeed. There are other options out there for people to choose. It's just one more added to the list.
I would disagree with this, as even tho 12 bit raw files have a lot of information you want to maintain as much accurate scene related data as possible till the grade so DI can adjust the WB. If you don't set the correct white balance the information is getting distributed incorrectly related to what the scene was. Not to say you can't do this but to say white balance isn't important is perhaps a bit too far and isn't a habit that should be adopted in my opinion.
EDIT: scrap that its ok for raw but not for pro res
but if you can set it right you may as well.
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Different form factors and sizes obviously have their use and place, just personally I dislike using the super-small forms as A-cam. I've done it and will continue to as budgets drop and Producers continue to push to shoot on cheaper cams... Maybe I'm just old school
At least as the raw and Pro-Res Log starts to filter down to the lower end, shooting cheaper won't necessarily bring along with it the mild hassle with the technical side of DSLR codecs and colour information etc. though it will bring along with it the cost of a Colourist.Couldn't think of a friendlier way to term it at the time
I personally love the look of S16 and here in Aus, probably 90% of narrative television is still shot on 2/3" sensors. And there's no real rush out to go and purchase/use even DSLRs for these shows.. I have noticed some of the reality shows are starting to use DSLRs for some of their 'beauty' shots, but it's literally something that's started happening this year. Also a whole lot of telemovie/low-budget stuff being shot on 2/3" Varicam. And as you've pointed out, some major motion pictures. Certainly back when 16 and Super 8 were the only real alternatives to 35mm, there was a hell of a lot of stuff being produced on both formats, and I couldn't say there was the same high level of complaint that the S16 frame size wasn't as big as a 35mm frame size - perhaps evidenced by the fact it's still around. Yup don't get it, with you on that.
Certainly some good points, only time will tell I suppose. BMD certainly do have a loyal worldwide market that they can push to.
Twenty units is impressive, although I'm not really sure how that stacks up in LA rental house terms - here, twenty would mean there's a pretty intense and constant demand for them, whereas with the amount of stuff constantly shot in LA, I'd imagine that twenty would somewhat pale in comparison to the number of Reds, for example?
I would disagree with this, as even tho 12 bit raw files have a lot of information you want to maintain as much accurate scene related data as possible till the grade so DI can adjust the WB. If you don't set the correct white balance the information is getting distributed incorrectly related to what the scene was. Not to say you can't do this but to say white balance isn't important is perhaps a bit too far and isn't a habit that should be adopted in my opinion.
EDIT: scrap that its ok for raw but not for pro res
Yeah, you had me confused for a bit there. haha. for LOG ProRes or DNxHD, yes, then it becomes important.
CinemaDNG, it shouldn't make any difference. However, I did forget that a lot of people would be shooting ProRes with a lut applied, etc, so yeah it does make a difference how the White balance settings play out.
I'd be surprised if it weren't plenty selectable in camera.
Couldn't think of a friendlier way to term it at the time
Sometimes, I feel your anguish. Haha.
Well, twenty cameras for a mid-level Rental house here in LA is a lot of cameras. Major rental houses would have many more, I haven't called over to any of those, just friends.
I imagine if mid-levels are trying to put twenty or so in stock, majors will have quite a few more ready as b, c, and backups for productions.
Can't imagine the rental rate being more than 250/day for body, battery and SSD drives. But, at the same time, MKIII's are renting for 250/day body only. ... ...
Did no one else think those example videos look terrible? Artifacts all over (likely due to poor compression) and the image looked really soft. I -want- this to be the camera we've all been waiting for but i've seen much more impressive stuff from the GH2.
Am i missing something or does it not have XLR in?
Here's hoping the next example videos are a bit better!
Am i missing something or does it not have XLR in?
Here's hoping the next example videos are a bit better!
Kholi - Good points about the RAW format. I do think it'll see it's fair share of ProRes use, seeing how 1 minute of RAW footage is a little over 10 GB.
I agree that it's an excellent B cam for an Alexa, or an A cam for many lower budget productions.
NathanH - I actually haven't seen much demo footage online. The stuff I have seen looked great, and the stuff Blackmagic had playing that was uncompressed on pro monitors at NAB was pretty flawless.
There's no XLR inputs, no. Again, what under $5k cinema camera has them? This is the stuff I'm talking about when comparing features with the Alexa or RED. It's not a perfect camera, but dang it's amazing at it's price point. Besides, the only audio you should be recording in camera is reference audio, and 1/8" or even the built in mic is good enough for that. Production audio belongs on a quality recorder. A cheaper recorder generally sounds better than a high end camera and your camera ops don't have to compromise focusing on good audio for good video or vice versa.
I think the one of the things this camera is better suited for than any other, even more expensive ones, are live events where you still want cinematic footage. Like a wedding or concert. 5 hours of quality, continuous ProRes footage on a 500GB SSD, plus (coming soon) features like auto-iris (eww) should you find yourself in a situation where the light is changing rapidly and you have to leave a camera rolling and unattended for some amount of time.
I'm pretty thrilled about this camera. The amount of negative feedback I've seen from people comparing feature lists against cameras that cost 10-30 times as much baffles me.
I agree that it's an excellent B cam for an Alexa, or an A cam for many lower budget productions.
NathanH - I actually haven't seen much demo footage online. The stuff I have seen looked great, and the stuff Blackmagic had playing that was uncompressed on pro monitors at NAB was pretty flawless.
There's no XLR inputs, no. Again, what under $5k cinema camera has them? This is the stuff I'm talking about when comparing features with the Alexa or RED. It's not a perfect camera, but dang it's amazing at it's price point. Besides, the only audio you should be recording in camera is reference audio, and 1/8" or even the built in mic is good enough for that. Production audio belongs on a quality recorder. A cheaper recorder generally sounds better than a high end camera and your camera ops don't have to compromise focusing on good audio for good video or vice versa.
I think the one of the things this camera is better suited for than any other, even more expensive ones, are live events where you still want cinematic footage. Like a wedding or concert. 5 hours of quality, continuous ProRes footage on a 500GB SSD, plus (coming soon) features like auto-iris (eww) should you find yourself in a situation where the light is changing rapidly and you have to leave a camera rolling and unattended for some amount of time.
I'm pretty thrilled about this camera. The amount of negative feedback I've seen from people comparing feature lists against cameras that cost 10-30 times as much baffles me.
Regarding the lack of XLR - you guys are aware that it has balanced 1/4" inputs, right? From a quality standpoint those should be indistinguishable from XLR, and it only requires an inexpensive XLR-1/4 TRS cable to connect any XLR mic directly to the camera. It's likely that the on-board preamps aren't any better or worse than most other cameras in the sub-$10k price range (which is to say, not particularly great), but the audio connection itself isn't likely to be the weak point.
On the XLR point - Red and Alexa don't have traditional dual-XLR in either. Proper XLR-ins are something you tend to see in Prosumer and ENG-style cameras. Whilst there are ways to use XLRs with Red or Alexa, I've never seen it used and you'd usually be using an external mixer anyway, so it would make sense to just use a mixer/recorder rather than attempt to make the audio single system.
As a B-cam, there is usually going to be a seperate audio recording unit anyway, so it becomes a non-issue. As well, what kind of pre-amps do you think you're going to get in an <$3k camera anyway? And, where are you going to put two full-sized XLR-ins with audio controls on a body of that size/shape?
As a B-cam, there is usually going to be a seperate audio recording unit anyway, so it becomes a non-issue. As well, what kind of pre-amps do you think you're going to get in an <$3k camera anyway? And, where are you going to put two full-sized XLR-ins with audio controls on a body of that size/shape?
I don't think anyone would be wrong to suggest a pre-amp is going to be a necessity in most cases.
Whilst I think BMD have some great stuff, I have yet to see decent on-board audio in anything sub $15k.
And really, I'd rather they spent their money on making it a good camera and then dishing out $300 for a JuicedLink.
Whilst I think BMD have some great stuff, I have yet to see decent on-board audio in anything sub $15k.
And really, I'd rather they spent their money on making it a good camera and then dishing out $300 for a JuicedLink.