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The Camera Vs The Talent & general queries

8salacious9

8salacious9

So coming across a lot of music videos, Iv noticed that the boring but very clean looking ones were shot on REDS almost everyone has one, I have seen some very bad music videos also shot on reds and these dop's keep getting gigs because of their gear?

This is kind of depressing as its hard to get a good paid gig if you haven't got the gear, I haven't shot with a RED before but I'm very good with cameras, I could get used to shooting with it if i watch some tutorials before hand then figure out the rest as i did recently with a Black Magic shoot.

but when approaching the client, how do you charge for your fees? I want no less than £300 a day but I only have a t3i with a sigma 18-35mm f1.8 and helios 135mm f2.8, most people are only familiar with the 7d and 5dmk2, so I obviously want to rent out a camera (not full frame), problem is i deal mostly with indie artists, so would you charge £300 then pay rental fees for camera out of your pay for better showreel or ask for them to pay for the rental which would cost around £1-180 a day?

Also approaching record labels to find the music video commissioner has anyone had any experience of this? iv only tried one record label so far but it was more of a chance email than a properly documented one, anyone experienced who is actively doing this, could you share info?

Do you separate budget from your paid fees or do you take it as included?
 
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Not that I have an opinion to offer on this much of what to do, but I just wanted to say it also sucks how people get gigs because of their gear. I know a guy who got some gigs just because he owns impressive looking $5000 dollar cameras, but his music videos do not look near as good as shorts I have seen shot on a T2i, or T3i, cause he doesn't know what he is doing much with lighting or the camera the features. One guy shot a better music video with just a cheap camcorder, that looked better cause of the lighting and color. The camera should not matter, compared to the talent behind it.
 
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harmonica44 said:
Not that I have an opinion to offer on this much of what to do, but I just wanted to say it also sucks how people get gigs because of their gear. I know a guy who got some gigs just because he owns impressive looking $5000 dollar cameras, but his music videos do not look near as good as shorts I have seen shot on a T2i, or T3i, cause he doesn't know what he is doing much with lighting or the camera the features. One guy shot a better music video with just a cheap camcorder, that looked better cause of the lighting and color. The camera should not matter, compared to the talent behind it.
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I am in agreement with you completely unfortunatly there seems to be no choice in the matter when approaching big clients, if you dont have big guns they dont want to seem to know.

the only other way is if you by chance knew a big name and got them to do you a favour then you could perhaps show you got a big artist but other than that i guess its a hard graft and saving money.
 
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8salacious9 said:
but when approaching the client, how do you charge for your fees? I want no less than £300 a day but I only have a t3i with a sigma 18-35mm f1.8 and helios 135mm f2.8, most people are only familiar with the 7d and 5dmk2, so I obviously want to rent out a camera (not full frame), problem is i deal mostly with indie artists, so would you charge £300 then pay rental fees for camera out of your pay for better showreel or ask for them to pay for the rental which would cost around £1-180 a day?
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Seems like this route would leave you overbidding against people who don't have to pay rental fees.
 
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Cinematography is not about the gear!

You need to know how to light and control an image. That's more important than knowing how to press record on some camera system (considering you have a crew to do that for you anyway).

The only time the cinematographer gets hired because of their equipment is relatively low budget films, and even then you can find cinatographers without gear working on low budgets.

You would get the client to pay your fee as well as rental fee on top of that

The thing is though, at the start of your cinematography career, it's very difficult to demand any day rate. Most of the time you'll be working for free, to build up your experience and showreel. Often, you'll be taking a paycut to be able to use a decent camera.

Once you have a reel full of awesome stuff and some decent experience and you're getting enough work to be able demand rates - that's when you can demand rates.

Realistically, if you're not getting work at your current rate, it's time to lower your rate until you do get work.
I can tell you there'll be people charging 300/day who have worked on RED and lit some nice stuff.

In terms of owning high end gear, think of it this way: you should only buy gear if you know you'll have enough work to be able to pay it off within 18 months.

You could buy a RED and undercut everyone and charge 700/day, but now you have a camera to pay off, so you need to make at least 20k before you'll even be able to make any profit to live on.
 
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filmmakers know its not about the gear, people in the music industry i believe do not, this is shown in most boring simple videos but just look clean with no real story to them.
 
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I'm not a cinematographer/dop, so take what I say with a pinch of salt.

When people complain that they're not getting paid enough, it's usually due to a mismatch in value in the market. Meaning, you're getting paid exactly what you're worth. If you're not earning £300 a day, you're not currently worth that. If you're earning £30 a day, that's what you're worth. You're worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for you. Nothing more, nothing less.

Harsh right? It's not all bad news though.

Want to earn more? Some of it is about perception of value, other parts is delivery of real value. Each client is different. Not every client is a good match for you. If a client is a good match for you, the trick is to find out what the client values and deliver.

A big issue most fledgling Cinematographers have is consider the job just holding the camera and pressing record. They never prepare themselves for the position where they are the department head, leading a team to achieve a common goal. On top of that, many often fail to partner with the director and producer(s) and take responsibility in pre-production and post production. By the time they realize all this is part of the job, it's too late. I understand why people want to call themselves a DOP, you'll get paid more than if you're called a Camera Operator.

Who knows, maybe I'm just a little sour after a poor experience with a DOP.
 
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8salacious9 said:
filmmakers know its not about the gear, people in the music industry i believe do not, this is shown in most boring simple videos but just look clean with no real story to them.
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In my experience, there are many production companies that are happy to hire gear for music videos.

I've shot MVs on Alexa's, REDs and even film.

Usually I find music video producers are more open to it as they often just want stuff that looks 'cool and funky'

It all depends on your market - market will generally dictate the sort of rates you'll be able to command and the kind of work you'll do.

Unfortunately if that's the way your market is, you might have to come up with a different strategy.
 
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Sweetie said:
A big issue most fledgling Cinematographers have is consider the job just holding the camera and pressing record. They never prepare themselves for the position where they are the department head, leading a team to achieve a common goal. On top of that, many often fail to partner with the director and producer(s) and take responsibility in pre-production and post production. By the time they realize all this is part of the job, it's too late. I understand why people want to call themselves a DOP, you'll get paid more than if you're called a Camera Operator
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Man there's a lot of this that goes on, especially these days when cameras are so inexpensive.

It used to be owner/operator. These days it still technically is owner/operator though most prefer to call themselves owner/DP!

It really makes the whole situation bad as burned producers, and even others, start trusting you less as a Cinematographer as they've only worked with operators who call themselves Cinematographers on the past
 
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There is this guy I met who has a steadicam and has gotten quite good with it, so I wanted to hire him as a steadicam op. But he wanted full DP, lighting and all, even though I didn't think his lighting and camera skills where that good, and I wanted to leave that to someone else, and for him to be steadicam op only. But some people want the full DOP credit.
 
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jax_rox said:
You could buy a RED and undercut everyone and charge 700/day
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If you keep an eye on Craigslist, you can find a "DP" with a Red to shoot your entire wedding video and edit the finished authored DVD for $700. :eek:

So many owners bought a RED when the price went down, and were left high & dry when the DSLR boom took off, that pretty much any gig became open season for low rates.

sweetie said:
Want to earn more? Some of it is about perception of value, other parts is delivery of real value.
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Took me a long time to accept this, but it's true. :blush:

.
 
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If I was hiring someone, it would come down to their rate and their showreel.

What's your showreel like? If it's not great, do whatever you can to get it there.

A t3i is a micro budget camera compared to a RED but a rocking showreel will help offset that.
 
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My question would be , do you have a showreel?

Even though I know what you're talking about , don't you think it's easier to trust someone with 70 000$ worth of equipment than a guy with T2i that everybody has now?

And most of the people who invest so much money into equipment have been in the industry for a while and they know what they're doing.

Not always of course , but it is much more often than the people with 400$ camera .
 
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I don't have a showreel, I have 4 Videos of which I can cut into one reel, I will do this ASAP! I have a website, the videos are on there, its good to get peoples opinions not just for me but for everyone else too, my management skills are abysmal which is why I enjoy working with gorillaonabike his skills are exemplery he is also a better director than me, but i myself must learn these skills in order to present myself as a whole product.

admittedly I would love to be a Director only but I also just love grabbing the camera and getting those shots that i know no one else will at my level, so its tough for me I know that in order to get the best out of my production i must stick to one thing and allow others to take over, which i did for my Seishin Web series episode I literally did nothing but direct people (could have done better).

so my tasks are to create a showreel (1-2 minutes long) and see if it shows i have any value, does anyone else have a showreel that they show to people?

but I also still think that most people with money want to see people with big equipment that they have been told are industry standard.

Also does anyone have any experience talking to a music video commissioner?
 
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Sweetie said:
Shooting and post production in 4k isn't all it's cracked up to be. My first project was in 4k. My latest project was in 5k. I want to shoot my DP for shooting in 5k.
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Haha, an editor on one of the films I shot this year wanted to kill me for shooting 5k RED simply because it took him weeks to transcode to something usable ;)

moonshieldmedia said:
I actually believe (a very unpopular opinion on this forum) that better gear goes a long way. Of course, talent and skill is completely necessary as well, but my cinematography changed over night as soon as I ditched the DSLRs.
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To be 100% honest, these two videos have a very similar look and feel. If anything, the BMCC stuff is underexposed.
I'm not sure I'd say changed overnight.

The videos look good, but it's hardly a night and day comparison - if anything I prefer the look of the DSLR stuff, and on YouTube the quality difference is barely apparent.


8salacious9 said:
admittedly I would love to be a Director only but I also just love grabbing the camera and getting those shots that i know no one else will at my level, so its tough for me I know that in order to get the best out of my production i must stick to one thing and allow others to take over, which i did for my Seishin Web series episode I literally did nothing but direct people (could have done better).
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So, you're a camera operator who wants to direct. No shame in that. But, I'd market yourself as a Camera Operator, rather than a DP.

so my tasks are to create a showreel (1-2 minutes long) and see if it shows i have any value, does anyone else have a showreel that they show to people?
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Yes. Though, I tend to slap mine together in a day because a Director/Producer/Client has asked to see it asap, and then I struggle to find time to sit down and edit it together properly.
 
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