cinematography The Camera Vs The Talent & general queries

8salacious9

8salacious9

So coming across a lot of music videos, Iv noticed that the boring but very clean looking ones were shot on REDS almost everyone has one, I have seen some very bad music videos also shot on reds and these dop's keep getting gigs because of their gear?

This is kind of depressing as its hard to get a good paid gig if you haven't got the gear, I haven't shot with a RED before but I'm very good with cameras, I could get used to shooting with it if i watch some tutorials before hand then figure out the rest as i did recently with a Black Magic shoot.

but when approaching the client, how do you charge for your fees? I want no less than £300 a day but I only have a t3i with a sigma 18-35mm f1.8 and helios 135mm f2.8, most people are only familiar with the 7d and 5dmk2, so I obviously want to rent out a camera (not full frame), problem is i deal mostly with indie artists, so would you charge £300 then pay rental fees for camera out of your pay for better showreel or ask for them to pay for the rental which would cost around £1-180 a day?

Also approaching record labels to find the music video commissioner has anyone had any experience of this? iv only tried one record label so far but it was more of a chance email than a properly documented one, anyone experienced who is actively doing this, could you share info?

Do you separate budget from your paid fees or do you take it as included?
 
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jax_rox said:
Haha, an editor on one of the films I shot this year wanted to kill me for shooting 5k RED simply because it took him weeks to transcode to something usable ;)


To be 100% honest, these two videos have a very similar look and feel. If anything, the BMCC stuff is underexposed.
I'm not sure I'd say changed overnight.

The videos look good, but it's hardly a night and day comparison - if anything I prefer the look of the DSLR stuff, and on YouTube the quality difference is barely apparent.




So, you're a camera operator who wants to direct. No shame in that. But, I'd market yourself as a Camera Operator, rather than a DP.


Yes. Though, I tend to slap mine together in a day because a Director/Producer/Client has asked to see it asap, and then I struggle to find time to sit down and edit it together properly.
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I would have said Camera operator however I decide on the look and set design including lighting (i don't physically do the lighting Baoulin does that) is that not what a DOP is? Also I think its more common for DOPs to be camera operators as well especially in america so my far my research has told me.

I need to make a decision as to what i market myself and would prefer a DOP who is a camera operator too otherwise Cinematographer could be the next best description? what do you think?
 
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Just an opinion here, but if you're bringing story concepts and "the big idea" to the table (outside of the standard shooting the band in a rehearsal space) and bringing it all together, either editing it yourself or working closely with an editor, and presenting it in a nice shiny package that is polished, I'd say you want to sell yourself as a director. * or a producing director I suppose.

I've seen some incredibly inventive and beautiful music videos shot with DSLRs and even lesser cameras, and I've seen some incredibly boring and uninspired videos shot in 4K Red BMC that are snooze-worthy.

Cameras are cheap. Concept is king. (I jest)
 
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moonshieldmedia said:
I actually believe (a very unpopular opinion on this forum) that better gear goes a long way. Of course, talent and skill is completely necessary as well, but my cinematography changed over night as soon as I ditched the DSLRs.

The proof is in the pudding:

My DSLR work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vUcNqRlJoc
My BMC work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agrZTS1OHCA
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I don't understand why you consider the BMC work to be so much superior. As Jax mentioned, the BMC work looks well underexposed.

If I showed both videos to friends and family who have no idea about films, they would undoubtedly choose the DSLR work as the better of the two.

I personally have nothing against better gear, if you know how to use it and understand everything else it implies, during the shoot and in post.
 
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moonshieldmedia said:
I actually believe (a very unpopular opinion on this forum) that better gear goes a long way. Of course, talent and skill is completely necessary as well, but my cinematography changed over night as soon as I ditched the DSLRs.
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You mean: "changed into night"? ;)

I see you shot less restless, but a lot darker.
This could both be choices based on the music/artist instead of changes caused by other equipment.
So, I think there's not enough pudding yet to proof anything.

On topic:
A tool gives possibilities.
Skill the ability to use those possibilities
Creativity the ability to use the possibilities to makes something unique, cool, beautiful, wow or whatever.

With a RED you can shoot what a DLSR can shoot.
Vice versa isn't always true.

2000 years ago Seneca already wrote something like:
"Having the best horse in town, doesn't make you the best person in town. The horse can be taken away from you."
He was saying that your possesions don't determine who you are as a person.
Which is true.
But there is a change you can travel faster with the best horse in town. :p
 
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8salacious9 said:
I would have said Camera operator however I decide on the look and set design including lighting (i don't physically do the lighting Baoulin does that) is that not what a DOP is? Also I think its more common for DOPs to be camera operators as well especially in america so my far my research has told me.

I need to make a decision as to what i market myself and would prefer a DOP who is a camera operator too otherwise Cinematographer could be the next best description? what do you think?
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Yes, a DP/Cinematographer dictates lighting etc. and has his Gaffer and Electrics along with the Grip crew set things up.

In my opinion, however, there's a big difference between a Cinematographer and a Camera Operator who know how to set up a couple lights.

Actually, it is traditionally less common for DPs to also operate. Generally there's a seperate operator, and even when the DP is operating, there's generally other operators for other cameras.

Personally I prefer I operate.
 
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Some of you have speculated correctly, the artist wanted a darker under exposed image for that second video, BUT the important elements are there. the image quality is WAY better, and smoother camera movements because I'm no longer using a DSLR that is too light
 
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8salacious9 said:
So coming across a lot of music videos, Iv noticed that the boring but very clean looking ones were shot on REDS almost everyone has one, I have seen some very bad music videos also shot on reds and these dop's keep getting gigs because of their gear?

This is kind of depressing as its hard to get a good paid gig if you haven't got the gear, I haven't shot with a RED before but I'm very good with cameras, I could get used to shooting with it if i watch some tutorials before hand then figure out the rest as i did recently with a Black Magic shoot.

but when approaching the client, how do you charge for your fees? I want no less than £300 a day but I only have a t3i with a sigma 18-35mm f1.8 and helios 135mm f2.8, most people are only familiar with the 7d and 5dmk2, so I obviously want to rent out a camera (not full frame), problem is i deal mostly with indie artists, so would you charge £300 then pay rental fees for camera out of your pay for better showreel or ask for them to pay for the rental which would cost around £1-180 a day?

Also approaching record labels to find the music video commissioner has anyone had any experience of this? iv only tried one record label so far but it was more of a chance email than a properly documented one, anyone experienced who is actively doing this, could you share info?

Do you separate budget from your paid fees or do you take it as included?
Click to expand...


I'm not sure if this has already been said, but if I would think that the obvious thing to do here would be to make a footage show reel and put it up either on my facebook page, and/or youtube or vevo page. This would show that you are quite capable of achieving high end results with what you have.
 
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moonshieldmedia said:
I actually believe (a very unpopular opinion on this forum) that better gear goes a long way. Of course, talent and skill is completely necessary as well, but my cinematography changed over night as soon as I ditched the DSLRs.

My DSLR work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vUcNqRlJoc
My BMC work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agrZTS1OHCA
Click to expand...

Moonshield, I think they both look great. But honestly, I don't see much of a difference. Sure, the Blackmagic footage looks a bit better, but I honestly think that most audiences wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
 
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I couldn't edit 4K on my current system anyhow (2007 MacBook Pro) so I'll be sticking with 1080p for the time being.
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I can.... Just (5k). It struggles with realtime playback with lots happening on the timeline and lots of audio sources. I still want to shoot him ;)
 
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Sweetie said:
It struggles with realtime playback with lots happening on the timeline and lots of audio sources.
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When you are finished with the visual editing - the picture is locked - render it out, import the locked picture and audio into a fresh session and work on the audio. (That's how audio editors work - a single stream of video and multiple audio tracks.) That should solve some of your "struggles."


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It's not the gear, it's what you do with it. When I was a touring musician I never had the latest, greatest equipment. Yet everyone loved my sound. I very carefully researched my purchases, and waited until the second or third generation came out; that way most of the bugs were worked out. I also put a lot of money into rock solid accessories - stands, cases, racks, cabling, pedals, etc. - most lasted through numerous gear changes.) I then put a lot of time and effort programming my keyboards and perfecting performance techniques.

It gets a little different when you are a business. As an audio post facility I must have Pro Tools; it's the industry standard, there are an incredible amount of associated third party products, there's good support from the user community, etc. But potential clients expect it. They also expect quality speakers, a clean comfortable editing room and all the other professional touches.

What is most important is your final product; if potential clients like what they see/hear then your toe is in the door.
 
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Sadly, there is a very real public perception that newer/"better"/more expensive/buzzword equipment equates directly to value of service. The analogy that I always use is that you could give me Peter Coulson's 60MP Hasselblad MF digital camera and saddle him with an off the shelf point and shoot and he would still take better/more compelling images than me. The reason is simple, I am a photographer, he is an artist. that truth does not change the fact that the average person/client would think of me as the better photographer based on the gear. I have had people look at my camera while shooting in public and say, "nice camera, you must be a great photographer." Idiots.

There is an old saying that you dress for the job you want, not the job you have. The same applies to gear when you are starting out. Sometimes you need to flash some bling to get the gig.

Talent allows you to extract every last drop of capability from your gear. Better gear has more that can be extracted.
 
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Lucky Hardwood said:
There is an old saying that you dress for the job you want, not the job you have. The same applies to gear when you are starting out. Sometimes you need to flash some bling to get the gig.
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IMO it depends on the gig, and in general I want to work with people who want to work with me because they like me, my work and my style, not because I own a camera.

Which is why I don't own a camera.
 
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jax_rox said:
IMO it depends on the gig, and in general I want to work with people who want to work with me because they like me, my work and my style, not because I own a camera.

Which is why I don't own a camera.
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Then it boils down to independant goals and success, some people have too much pride others grind through until they get to where they want.

for me film is my life and i wont stop til i get to the very top of where i want to be, which i guess i need to narrow it down a bit more to make it easier, but I do believe that to get top clients you need to have the creme da la creme of equipment or a showreel with credible artists that would make spielberg jizz in his pants.
 
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One disadvantage of owning a camera is what if a project/client demands different look/camera?
The only people who hire because of "DOP owns a camera" are broke producers.
 
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baoliun said:
One disadvantage of owning a camera is what if a project/client demands different look/camera?
The only people who hire because of "DOP owns a camera" are broke producers.
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Kinda have to agree. I've shot on about every camera under the sun for different projects, based on different needs and different looks

8salacious9 said:
I do believe that to get top clients you need to have the creme da la creme of equipment or a showreel with credible artists that would make spielberg jizz in his pants.
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But that's simply not true. You do need a showreel, or work that's good. But that's about it. To get work as a DP, you don't need equipment (Gaffer etc. is a different story), and in some cases you don't even need a bunch of credits

You do need to have awesome work; a good showreel helps to display that.


At the end of the day, if it comes down to an awesome Cinematographer without equipment, or a decidedly average Cinematographer with equipment, only the tiny budget production is going to go for the guy who's average - and they're probably going to take 9 months to pay you, at a cut rate anyway.
 
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