That's what it's all about :(

Murdock said:
For the sake of discussion let's say you are flat busted. You are standing on the corner begging for change. That's how bad hings have gotten for you.

Now, let's take two scenarios:

1. A man with $100,00 pulls up and gives you $10,000 dollars.

2. A man with $10,000,000 pulls up and gives you $100,000.

Which man has done more for you? One gave you 10% of his total holdings and the other gave you 1% of his total holdings. But the 1% was worth 10x's the 10%. Does it matter what the total holdings were of the man.
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Sure but I was responding to the point that foreign aid is a significant reason for US debt. And it isn't. In that context, it's aid as a % of GDP that matters, not the raw number of $ in terms of US interests.

Also disagree with this idea that we give money to other countries and then they crap on us. With the notable exception of Israel, when we give money it has strings, and those countries DO play ball with us. That's for sure. Money still talks.

About where some of our money REALLY goes? Medicare and other entitlements. And of course here:
http://costofwar.com/en/
 
brianluce said:
Sure but I was responding to the point that foreign aid is a significant reason for US debt. And it isn't. In that context, it's aid as a % of GDP that matters, not the raw number of $ in terms of US interests.

Also disagree with this idea that we give money to other countries and then they crap on us. With the notable exception of Israel, when we give money it has strings, and those countries DO play ball with us. That's for sure. Money still talks.

About where some of our money REALLY goes? Medicare and other entitlements. And of course here:
http://costofwar.com/en/
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Ah, I see.

Yea I don't think its a major spending stream. But I would think that not all the coutries play ball, completely. I mean, look at Pakistan, they had Osama in their backyard, and are receiving billions in "aide". You would thnk they could play ball a little better than not saying anything.:) I would say countries fall in line just enough to say they are, and behind closed doors, are shooting us the bird. Which I might do the same thing. This is why I would support no aide for anyone. Or there is my old idea of empire through real estate, we just start buying the land of other countries. They sign the dotted line and we own it.?? They have less area of responsibility and more money.:)

Yes war is expensive. Another belief of mine, and Clausewitz would agree, total war is the only way to fight a war. You should make fighting you so costly to the other side that noone wants to fight you. If they have the understanding that, if they attack you, they will be in a fight for the existence of their country, they would think a little longer and a little harder before attacking. Oh and you must not help them rebuild afterward either.:)
 
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Murdock said:
Ah, I see.

Yea I don't think its a major spending stream. But I would think that not all the coutries play ball, completely. I mean, look at Pakistan, they had Osama in their backyard, and are receiving billions in "aide".
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That's a fair point re Pakistan. They're in a tough spot though, I don't blame them for trying to please both sides. Large segments of their population are virulently anti American, to totally disregard them and spread their legs for Uncle Sam could would be perilous. As it is, we launch Tomahawk missiles, and Predator strikes in their airspace not to mention running SEAL raides next door to their version of Westpoint.

It's almost funny to imagine if Pakistan conducted air strikes in the middle of Los Angeles, that's what we do to them without any permission. We've been doing it at least since the Clinton era.
 
brianluce said:
It's almost funny to imagine if Pakistan conducted air strikes in the middle of Los Angeles, that's what we do to them without any permission. We've been doing it at least since the Clinton era.
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Do they have boats/ships??:) Ah, gotta love 2 oceans worth of buffer.
 
You're right Brian, the budget for foreign aid is miniscule(a slight exaggeration on my part lol) compared to the percentage of our budget that goes to defense and social services. The money is still being spent though. Money that doesn't need to be considering how America is viewed in a lot of places. The point is a lot of the countries that receive aid, Pakistan, Palestine, Israel, a lot of African countries, don't always play ball with us. And by play ball I mean they don't always act with at least the slightest US interest in the backs of their minds. Israel continues to build settlements in Palestine causing more drama, Palestine can't get its government straight or they'd have more legitimacy in being their own nation, Pakistan had Osama as well as other terrorists in the past, Libya is an exhausted topic. The money we funneled into Afghanistan during the cold war was used against us when Al Qaeda was chilling with the guns our 80s money bought them. It happens a lot.

Like you said NATO and the west do probably have an ulterior motive for helping and its probably to maintain a presence in the east to intercept a threat to the west. But as you said its not Iraq, and i think people need to recognize that.

Pakistan is in a tough spot, to be honest I just think they have shitty intel. I mean Osama has hidden for 10 years I wouldn't be surprised if he just slipped in.

My exaggeration aside, foreign aid from America never seems to build us up but rather knock us down. "Hey, we'll help out with your finances if you stop making waves in Palestine...." "Sure man no problem." :hands check: :whispers to secretary: "call betanyahu, tell him those condos in Gaza are a go.."

I think America has good intentions for the Libyan people. Its annoying when people especially the media, claim its for oil. It perpetuates our image in the world as greedy and capitalistic war just trying to control governments when while it might have been the Bush intention of Iraq, it isn't the case now. The Muslim revolution is calling for democracy and free elections, the people don't have military as their dictators do. Even now in Syria, the people are asking for foreign intervention, holding up signs etc. So much so that other middle eastern nations, even Iran, have said Syria needs to reform its government. Its not something American government orchestrated.
 
CHamburger said:
I think America has good intentions for the Libyan people.
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Who is America?
American people are good people, human and compassionate as any other people on the planet.
The problem is, America is not the people, but the government and the secretive, competitive politics they do.

The American government not only doesn't have good intentions for the Libyan people, but It doesn't have good intentions for the American people. Sorry, but that's my opinion. :blush:
 
kinglis said:
Who is America?
American people are good people, human and compassionate as any other people on the planet.
The problem is, America is not the people, but the government and the secretive, competitive politics they do.

The American government not only doesn't have good intentions for the Libyan people, but It doesn't have good intentions for the American people. Sorry, but that's my opinion. :blush:
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I'm not sure if you understand how our gov functions outside of what news is reporting but the people elect the officials of a bipartisan system. Sure our change, if desired by the people, is not immediate but its government, we're not ripping a band aid off. I'm actually kind of disheartened you feel that way. We protested during Vietnam, why would we not do it now? We protested against anti-gay rights, new york just passed a bill, we want lower taxes-the government listens and does what is possible given the debt we're in. They provide social services for people who can't afford it, they make doctors more accessible with national healthcare, they're consonantly reforming education. How does our gov have ill-intentions for the people. And seeing as how America wasn't even the first country to make its presence known in Libya I don't understand what you're implying.

Everyone's entitled to their opinions but I do like conflicting opinions explained.
 
Actually, CHam, you're the first person I come upon, who's satisfied with the current government (I don't mean only in the US, but in any country). You're lucky.
In that case we have nothing to discuss :)

I think all governments with their politics ARE NOT CONCERNED ABOUT THE PEOPLE. Maybe I read too many history books, watched too many documentaries, I'm just silly and I like Julian Assange. Never mind me :)
 
Jullian Assange is fine by me I wish there were more people like him. The only thing is he has terrible timing and tends to release docs that hurt defenses rather than expose corruption which I wouldn't mind him doing, but when he discloses documents that mark secret defense bases in the US or procedures for terrorists attacks in wherever, its kind of annoying. Stick to pinning the blame for the illegal water boarding, the torture that took place at GITMO.

Documentaries are cool but watch for the conspiracy ones that are usually talking about NWO bs. They don't have anything to back up their info and doctor speeches to fit their anarchist agenda. I read history books as well, my fave is the John Adams bio by McCullough, but of all the documentaries and history books and own research I have done, I can't make the claim that all governments are bad.

Here in America I know a lot of people that are happy with Obama and the job that he's doing, I know some that aren't. I can't speak for other countries as I do not know enough about public opinion. I think given the cards he was handed, he's holding his own. Could he be a bit more proactive? Yes. But with a recent transition in congress, its even harder.

I am curious to see what sort of government you'd construct that didn't involve politics. Look government isn't fool proof, nor is it perfect. But the truth is it isn't designed to be. Its designed to keep a majority happy until the minority becomes the majority in public matters which is when policy then changes. In America, enough votes means things happen. There's just no way for everyone to be happy in any form of government even in a utopia... But you can have it so that there are more happy people then upset people. They are never stifled, they have freedom of speech etc. and can voice their opinions at any time, this is how they become the majority.

I don't mean to bust your ear drums but the media continues to exacerbate the current situations. That's what really needs to change, unbiased media.
 
CHamburger said:
Jullian Assange is fine by me I wish there were more people like him. The only thing is he has terrible timing and tends to release docs that hurt defenses rather than expose corruption which I wouldn't mind him doing, but when he discloses documents that mark secret defense bases in the US or procedures for terrorists attacks in wherever, its kind of annoying. Stick to pinning the blame for the illegal water boarding, the torture that took place at GITMO.

Documentaries are cool but watch for the conspiracy ones that are usually talking about NWO bs. They don't have anything to back up their info and doctor speeches to fit their anarchist agenda. I read history books as well, my fave is the John Adams bio by McCullough, but of all the documentaries and history books and own research I have done, I can't make the claim that all governments are bad.

Here in America I know a lot of people that are happy with Obama and the job that he's doing, I know some that aren't. I can't speak for other countries as I do not know enough about public opinion. I think given the cards he was handed, he's holding his own. Could he be a bit more proactive? Yes. But with a recent transition in congress, its even harder.

I am curious to see what sort of government you'd construct that didn't involve politics. Look government isn't fool proof, nor is it perfect. But the truth is it isn't designed to be. Its designed to keep a majority happy until the minority becomes the majority in public matters which is when policy then changes. In America, enough votes means things happen. There's just no way for everyone to be happy in any form of government even in a utopia... But you can have it so that there are more happy people then upset people. They are never stifled, they have freedom of speech etc. and can voice their opinions at any time, this is how they become the majority.

I don't mean to bust your ear drums but the media continues to exacerbate the current situations. That's what really needs to change, unbiased media.
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All governments, with time, prove to be corrupt. It's more of an intuitive response. But my reasoning is that people are motivated by self interest, it's instinctive, so we can survive. You really have to think about it; what type of man or woman the president is, he's not some 1 dimensional nice guy that we see on camera. Hes smart, calculating, and ambitious. I can tell you with confidence that the US has conflicting interests with major corporations. It's the same as the Mexican government but instead there corporations, drug cartels, and foreign interests. I'm not into conspiracy theories, but it's fact that politicians are given money by major corporations and a lot of them lobby for them. It's a smart move by corporations, there not idiots, there run by smart people so remember that.

EDIT: other than that, yeah I don't have a problem with the US government. Governments aren't perfect I agree.
 
TheNoob said:
But my reasoning is that people are motivated by self interest, it's instinctive, so we can survive.
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Self interest is good. Everything we do is motivated by self interest. But that's nothing to do with our survival. The question is, what's our self interest at the moment?

Do we want to live in a society confined by the police (state)?
Do we want to live in a society breathing (chemically) poisoned air, drinking (ch) poisoned water, eating (ch) poisoned food?
Do we want to live in a society torn to pieces by religion?
Do we want to live in a society that pay young boys to go to unnecessary wars and kill, and maim themselves?
The questions are too many...
It's all a game for a few guys and we are all the sheep.

My self interest is the rest of the people to feel good and live well. That's how I will survive.

I like what Krishnamurti said when asked about the big bang (paraphrase): I don't care about the Big Bang, when SO MANY CHILDREN DIE OF HUNGER EVERY DAY.
 
kinglis said:
Self interest is good. Everything we do is motivated by self interest. But that's nothing to do with our survival. The question is, what's our self interest at the moment?

Do we want to live in a society confined by the police (state)?
Do we want to live in a society breathing (chemically) poisoned air, drinking (ch) poisoned water, eating (ch) poisoned food?
Do we want to live in a society torn to pieces by religion?
Do we want to live in a society that pay young boys to go to unnecessary wars and kill, and maim themselves?
The questions are too many...
It's all a game for a few guys and we are all the sheep.

My self interest is the rest of the people to feel good and live well. That's how I will survive.

I like what Krishnamurti said when asked about the big bang (paraphrase): I don't care about the Big Bang, when SO MANY CHILDREN DIE OF HUNGER EVERY DAY.
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That's life Kinglis, as sad as it is thats the reality, and it won't change anytime soon. Like I said the best we can hope for is a government that strives to make at least most of its constituents happy. Maybe I think I'm coming from a too localized standpoint but I really don't think about world governments when I worry about my own. Its not apathy, I'm just not in a position to create change.


Gandhi was a great guy, had a awesome message but one person can't win out over money. He can't alleviate the pain's of his followers across the ocean. Even Jesus! Do one to other etc.. that can only be followed so far until it starts to conflict with self interest. The real question is why don't more people care enough to make the change happen?
 
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