Starting with a feature

After spending the large majority of my teenage years jumping between various artistic mediums and exposing myself to as much art as I could I came to the realization about 8 months ago that if I was going to pursue a career in the arts I'd want it to be film, and I'd like to be a writer/director. I feel like it's a medium where I can combine all my various talent, where I can really say something meaningful and (hopefully) have it be recognized by others.

Anyways, jump forward a while and I started writing a script for a short film. I had an idea I was satisfied with that I felt conveyed a certain experience I feel is important and I was feeling confident in it. As I went I added more and more onto it as I started to develop new ideas and fully realize each of my characters. So I kept working on it for about 6 months and eventually I'd written enough for it that if I made it it would be the size of a feature length.

I know this is a story I want to tell. I've gotten very very positive responses from everyone I've showed it to. If I don't make this film right now I will one day, I'm sure of it, but my question really is: how badly would I be shooting myself in the foot if my first major project was a feature length? I don't have too much experience with directing outside of various shorts I've done for digital media classes in school throughout the years and voice actor directing for a previous project. I've done some stop motion shorts too, but I really haven't done any serious work when it comes to live action stuff. I'm aware almost no one jumps right into making a feature length, but I feel like I could really make this film well and I made sure to write the screenplay within the constraints of what I could manage.

Should I just go for it? Should I hold off until I have some more serious short films under my belt so I have more experience? Any advice would be appreciated.
 
how badly would I be shooting myself in the foot if my first major project was a feature length?

If you're a savant filmmaker, go for it. If not, you may be spreading your learning curve longer than it would be if you do shorts first.

Should I just go for it?

It's time for you to dig deep and take a serious look at how skillful you are as a director/writer and your reach to counteract any weaknesses you have. If you have any doubts....
 
I'm pretty certain I'm a good writer. This is the first time I've written a screenplay but I've been writing for years now and have had a lot of success with it both in terms of reception and exposure, plus as I said mostly everyone I've shown the rough draft of the script to so far has been been very impressed with it. Mainly what I'm concerned with is my skills as a director since my exposure to that side of things is pretty limited.

If I did decide to go for it I'd be dedicating all my time to it and would be trying to work on any weaknesses I have as a director pretty actively. I've already been sort of compulsively reading/watching videos on the process for the last week or so just so I can understand what I'd be getting myself into.
 
It's not a bad idea to start with a feature, but be aware it will almost certainly be terrible, and maybe you shouldn't immediately pursue the story you've invested so much into. And since we all learn something every day of planning/shooting/editing, your feature will have wildly varying quality levels depending on when you shot which scene. Also, if you only decided 8 months ago to be a filmmaker, you may want to wait before committing to a feature. When I was about 14 I made a (very bad) full length movie which took ~2 years to finish.
 
mostly everyone I've shown the rough draft of the script to so far has been been very impressed with it

Are these people who count? Those with the experience to know whether a script is great or not? You need to determine the worth of those opinions. For example, I show a crappy script for anyone in my family, they may think it's great due to their lack of a clue to recognize otherwise. This is all part of your evaluation. To be a great director, you need a great team. Those people who you know you can trust their opinion and their opinion will be right.

for the last week

Grasshopper... I see you're half way there.

Mainly what I'm concerned with is my skills as a director

Ok. Lets start there. What do you think a director does?

Next question. What do you think makes a great director?

Question 3: From your own lists, how do you feel you compare? Do you exceed or fall short? If so, by how much? If you're short, what do you need to do to get there?
 
it's a small investment of time to make a 1-2 page short. i suggest you do this first, and then evaluate how happy you are with the result.
 
After spending the large majority of my teenage years jumping between various artistic mediums and exposing myself to as much art as I could I came to the realization about 8 months ago that if I was going to pursue a career in the arts I'd want it to be film, and I'd like to be a writer/director. I feel like it's a medium where I can combine all my various talent, where I can really say something meaningful and (hopefully) have it be recognized by others.

I made the same decision. Although I had started in film back when I was only 7 years old. I turned to stop-motion animation when I was 8, then stopped cold turkey to pursue drawing and illustration along with sculpture for a year or two, before turning back to live-action film and animation about half the time. These days, I try to do all three. But along with them, I've learned to become a voice actor and hopefully a mildly entertaining on-screen actor due to my numerous films where I was my only talent.

Film is definitely a place where one can make use of writing, drawing, designing, photography, acting, and other arts and crafts, to create a unified whole. So your decision is an understandable one.

However, what counts most if you are to become a filmmaker is your understanding and your skills to tell a story with a moving image.

Anyways, jump forward a while and I started writing a script for a short film. I had an idea I was satisfied with that I felt conveyed a certain experience I feel is important and I was feeling confident in it. As I went I added more and more onto it as I started to develop new ideas and fully realize each of my characters. So I kept working on it for about 6 months and eventually I'd written enough for it that if I made it it would be the size of a feature length.

This will happen to a lot of people who work hard on their stories, especially if they just can't stop themselves and are engrossed in the process. And it's almost always a good thing to just let things flow and get out all that you can, because it can be creatively liberating and a healthy outlet.

But your enthusiasm about your story mirrors the many instances where I had created an idea for numerous projects, mulled over them and added to them for weeks or months, only to realize that I just didn't have the know-how or will power to pursue a full feature. Of course I was also 9, 12, 14, 15, and 17 years old at those times; so my ignorance of the process and my underdeveloped skills were the main reason why I was so gung-ho at first, and then was subsequently so unprepared to go the distance. And my enthusiasm waned as I slowly re-examined each of the ideas I had, only to realize that they would all be garbage.

Now this by no means is to say that your script is bad or even unprofessional in its execution and scope. What I mean to point out by my previous paragraph is that in all cases where I had come up with a feature-length concept--even the one I was most proud of and managed to create a full animatic for for its first 7 minutes--I had to give up on because my skills, my means, and my creativity with storytelling didn't allow for them. The concepts weren't strong enough and I was not yet prepared with the accumulated knowledge I have now in order to make them happen.

And so you must ask yourself, "Even if my script is good, do I understand filmmaking well enough to bring this story to life in a way that will make visual and dramatic sense?"

Do you know what different kinds of shots are? Do you know how many there are and the general meaning behind their usage? Do you know what the different types of lenses are, and how they can create these different shots? Do you understand the golden rule of splitting the camera image up into thirds, and placing objects or actors on these grid lines for the best compositions? Do you know about the 180 degree rule, and how you are supposed to keep actors on the same side of frame, even when switching camera angles during a conversation or OTS shot? And do you know that in many cases, these and other rules can also be broken in order to create discord or a change in character or narrative dominance in order to illicit a unique and proper reaction from the audience with regards to story?

Beyond that, do you know how lighting works, and what the basic terms of Key, Fill, and Rim light refer to?

I won't bother to go beyond that in case you do know what I'm talking about. But if you don't quite know yet, then you are likely not ready to tackle a feature film in it's entirety. Tackling a small scene, or a portion of the film in the form of a shorter work might be the better direction for now.

I know this is a story I want to tell. I've gotten very very positive responses from everyone I've showed it to. If I don't make this film right now I will one day, I'm sure of it, but my question really is: how badly would I be shooting myself in the foot if my first major project was a feature length? I don't have too much experience with directing outside of various shorts I've done for digital media classes in school throughout the years and voice actor directing for a previous project. I've done some stop motion shorts too, but I really haven't done any serious work when it comes to live action stuff. I'm aware almost no one jumps right into making a feature length, but I feel like I could really make this film well and I made sure to write the screenplay within the constraints of what I could manage.

I believe a few people have jumped right in, but that has usually been because either they had enough accumulated knowledge from the people they were working with and talking with in order to make it happen, or because they had absolutely no real skill, but a lot of enthusiasm, and an equally enthusiastic group of friends around them who wanted to be movie stars.

Again, I basically did the same things you did. I made a few shorts in my TV media class during highschool, and I created a few animated shorts back when I was 9 and 10 years old. Both of which actually won prizes at a nearby international animation festival.

But I was by no means an expert at the time, and any sort of feature length project I might have made would have looked like garbage now. I would even say that at this current point in time, I'm still not quite equipped enough in my talents or understanding to tackle a feature-length film, as my means and my budget just wouldn't be able to handle it, let alone handle my level of perfectionism or standards of quality.

I may have understood a few things about lighting, camera angles, and how to tell a decent narrative with different directional choices, but only until my 3rd year of film school did I truly come to fully understand how movies were made, how they were constructed, and how all of the different aspects of production worked together in order to get the final image up on the screen.

My latest project, took me from conception to realization, with numerous ups and downs that I am so thankful I had to suffer through, because now I know just how hard it can be, especially at the indie level, even on a really short project. None-the-less, my film looks great for what it is, and the results could not be more favorable, despite the turmoil that had occurred all throughout it's development. But a feature-film during the same amount of time would've been out of the question. Not only do I not have the writing skills yet to create a full feature length script, but I don't have the social contacts or the outlets necessary to gather together a crew large enough (even a comparative skeleton crew) in order to make a feature-film feasible. And I'm not prepared to carry the brunt of the responsibilities again, unless it's another short project.

A feature film really needs a support team, and one that is committed. You definitely need a producer, you definitely need a production designer, and you definitely need a script supervisor. An assistant director is likely going to be the next important addition, as they will work with you to keep the project moving forward at the pace it needs to be. And along with that, you probably should have someone helping you on cinematography side: as trying to create the look and feel of a feature-length project is going to be a massive undertaking, and one that ought to be split amongst at least two people who know what their roles on the project are, like it's professionally done. The cinematographer will be able to deal with all of the lighting concerns based upon your conceptual thoughts, and you will be able to handle the camera work and the choreography of the actors, along with your assistant director.

I'm sure someone will say that my previous suggestions are not entirely necessary, as I'm sure a few people have managed to still make a feature without all of this help. But I personally wouldn't take on a feature, especially one that I wrote, without the help of these other five individuals, because I would not be able to physically or mentally handle the stress that would come with the scope of the project. And I would prefer to have all that extra input in order to know if the film is really going where it needs to go, and to get other opinions as to what alternate shots could be used, or what alternate directions the story could go, if something goes wrong with a location, or if an actor leaves the film.

So there are plenty of things to consider before going forward on your own full-length project.

Should I just go for it? Should I hold off until I have some more serious short films under my belt so I have more experience? Any advice would be appreciated.

With all that I have written already, I would say that you should definitely create a few shorts, but shorts that build on your current knowledge of the craft, and that challenge you to make unique and creative decisions that can help you learn more about it. Develop stories that invite creative and unorthodox camera work, but that also require tired and true angles and compositions, so that you can perhaps understand the full scope of things.

Perhaps you should study your favorite films more carefully, read up on filmmaking terminology, and break down a scene in a film into its different parts, and contemplate on how and why they work the way they do to get the best response from you as a viewer.

Then, once you're more confident that you know what the building blocks are, put them to the test with a short or two. Only then do I think it would be a reasonable time to consider producing a feature-length film.
 
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Are these people who count? Those with the experience to know whether a script is great or not? You need to determine the worth of those opinions. For example, I show a crappy script for anyone in my family, they may think it's great due to their lack of a clue to recognize otherwise. This is all part of your evaluation. To be a great director, you need a great team. Those people who you know you can trust their opinion and their opinion will be right.

Most of them are either people I've worked with creatively in the past who I know will tell me my works bad if it is or people I trust enough to be honest with me. I don't have anyone who's an experienced director/screenplay writer on hand if that's what you're asking. I do however have a few friends who are currently studying film that have helped me clean it up so it better fits the conventions of a proper screenplay, and they've all seemed to think it was a solid start. I haven't yet but I have a friend who's acted both professionally and as a hobby for longer than I've been alive that I was gonna send it off to soon - I'm not basing what I'm saying off what some average joe says.

Grasshopper... I see you're half way there.

I'm aware of the fact that I hardly know anything about the process as it is other than some rudimentary stuff I've gathered so far, that's largely why I'm here - I never tried to deny that. Is the condescension really necessary?

Ok. Lets start there. What do you think a director does?

Next question. What do you think makes a great director?

Question 3: From your own lists, how do you feel you compare? Do you exceed or fall short? If so, by how much? If you're short, what do you need to do to get there?

Well from my understanding to put it simply it's their job to take the screenplay and manage the rest of the crew to create the film as they envisioned it. I think a great director should be able to understand film as a medium well enough to communicate something effective and important through their work, and to properly communicate their vision to the rest of the people working on the film so they can actually bring it to fruition.

Of course I think I'd fall short of my own favorite directors simply because all of them have had years and years of experience with their craft and understand it on a significantly deeper level than I ever could at this stage. The only way I'm going to get to that point is if I actually get out there and seriously work on a project - whether that's this one or various other shorts.

And so you must ask yourself, "Even if my script is good, do I understand filmmaking well enough to bring this story to life in a way that will make visual and dramatic sense?"

That's the main thing I'm concerned about. I would say I have a basic idea of what about 80% of the terms and ideas you referenced, but I don't have any practical experience with them (obviously).

A feature film really needs a support team, and one that is committed. You definitely need a producer, you definitely need a production designer, and you definitely need a script supervisor. An assistant director is likely going to be the next important addition, as they will work with you to keep the project moving forward at the pace it needs to be. And along with that, you probably should have someone helping you on cinematography side: as trying to create the look and feel of a feature-length project is going to be a massive undertaking, and one that ought to be split amongst at least two people who know what their roles on the project are, like it's professionally done. The cinematographer will be able to deal with all of the lighting concerns based upon your conceptual thoughts, and you will be able to handle the camera work and the choreography of the actors, along with your assistant director.

I have someone who can most likely serve as a cinematographer and editor and another friend who's helping me along with the screenplay would probably end up serving as the assistant director if I began work on this, but otherwise some of those other roles might be tough to fill.

Having a really dedicated team is the other major stumbling point I'd have with this obviously. I have a pretty wide group of people who could theoretically help out and I'll probably end up asking around w/ some of them to see how they feel about the project, but as it is right now there's nothing certain (though at the same time in its current state I don't think anything is really certain about this project other than I'm definitely going to end up making it one day even if I decide not to right now).

Anyways, I appreciate the really long response, it definitely made me consider a lot of things I hadn't really before, so thanks. I'm still not sure what exactly I'm gonna do. I'm definitely going to try to teach myself more about the process and work on polishing the script but if it turns out that I simply don't have the manpower to create this thing right now I'll most likely end up just doing shorts until I can successfully manage it.
 
Mainly what I'm concerned with is my skills as a director since my exposure to that side of things is pretty limited.

If I did decide to go for it I'd be dedicating all my time to it and would be trying to work on any weaknesses I have as a director pretty actively. I've already been sort of compulsively reading/watching videos on the process for the last week or so just so I can understand what I'd be getting myself into.

Is there a reason you would rather read and watch videos on the process
than direct a few short films? Don't you think you could understand what
you'd be getting yourself into by directing a few short films?
 
Is there a reason you would rather read and watch videos on the process
than direct a few short films? Don't you think you could understand what
you'd be getting yourself into by directing a few short films?

I don't have anything against it - rather, I've put a lot of time into working on this one and ideally I think it would be cool to work on, but I understand that's a pretty massive task. I'm just reading/watching stuff on the process because at this current moment I don't have the proper equipment to do either (I probably won't for another month or so at least), and this is something proactive I can do right now. There's a pretty good chance I'll end up just making a few shorts first though.
 
Is there a reason you would rather read and watch videos on the process
than direct a few short films? Don't you think you could understand what
you'd be getting yourself into by directing a few short films?

He'd be wise to do both.
Having the experience of a short film allows one to take that experience, and multiply any ups and downs by how many of their short(s) it would take to add up to a feature. But that only goes so far in estimating what the total scope and commitment would be if one was to really take on the challenge.

Though, it's probably best to look at the behind the scenes stories of smaller and cheaper feature-length films rather than the big budget stuff, as they have far more luxuries and safe-guards in place to make the process as smooth, comfortable, convenient, and well-managed as possible, to keep on a good schedule and turn-around time.
 
Kman,
I know how you feel. My first movie was a feature. I thought "who the hell watches shorts?," "making a short would be a waste of time. Shorts is for suckers. Idiots. These fools. They know nothing. As little as John Snow." Of course this is back in 2006 and I'm not sure what John Snow knew back then. But you get my point.

And I love my first feature. The production value is total crap. But I love that story and want to remake it. (Although I don't think it's ever going to happen. Story is too politically incorrect). So then I set on doing shorts, not because I wanted to tell a particlular story, but just as practice.

Could I make an effective scene of people talking at a restaurant?

Could I shoot something in a static car but effectively make it feel like the car is moving?

Could I effectively shoot something on the street with all kinds of noises, and record the conversation of two people with a long lens and no boom?

Could I shoot a scene where two people are being lit by a TV Screen.


I wanted to give you links to these test shorts, but I didn't want you to think that I was hogging your thread with my films. None of these things I shot are perfect. Far from it, but I learn something. Every short, I try to write something to find out if what I think in my head can be translated into reality. I'm planning to do a little sci-fi short to find out if I can have a blue alien. I started writing it to practice the blue skin shoot, but now that story is growing, and I like it.

And every time you direct, you find out more about how to work with people, effective ways for you, and ineffective ways. So most shorts are going to cost you next to nothing, but if you are shooting with learning in mind, shorts are going to be really effective learning tools, so that you can cheaply find out what not to do, what advice not to rely on, what advice to hold tight to, when you actually spend your money and shoot your feature.

So my advice. Keep the feature in your pocket. Don't waste the story, if it's really good. My first one was really good. I really, really love that story. But I wasted it, I think. So keep the story in your back pocket, and think about shooting challenges you'll face in that film and shoot little shorts to test similar scenes.
Best,
Aveek

ps. You're in a filmmaking forum my friend. Condescension is bread and butter. If you feel it, just ignore it. Just think to yourself, would Spielberg (insert favorite director here ) ever be condescending to a budding Director? Never!!! So why bother yourself?
 
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Fail fast.
Learn faster.

Remember these words.
I didn't invent them: it's from the Learn Startup Machine Method.
And it means that in stead of investing great amounts of time in something new, you should put it to the test as soon as possible to make mistakes and learn from them.

When it comes to filmmaking there are a lot of possible mistakes to be made.
And you will certainly make a few in your first project.
The question is: do you want to work on a project for 2 years to find out you made some elementary mistakes as a beginner. Or would you rather spend 6 months making 2 or 3 shorts making the same and maybe even more mistakes you can learn from, so your feature will become more worthy of your script?
The pros and cons of making shorts first:
Pro:
- you'll make mistakes and learn from them quicker
- you'll experience and learn what the whole process of filmmaking entails
- you'll be more experienced and confident as a director
- you'll get to know people who can (or can't) be your cast and crew for the feature
- you'll have a portfolio that shows you can actually finish a project
- you'll have a portfolio: that makes it easier to get people on board for your feature
Con:
- it may SEEM to take a little longer

Some survivorbias:
All great directors made shorts first.

And in the past few years we have seem people taking both approaches on IT.
It turns out that even a longer short of 20 minutes can turn out to be too much to chew as a first project. There are people on here that have been struggling with finishing their first short for years, because of all the mistakes that rather had been made in something less time consuming.

I love making 1 to 2 minute shorts: it's a great way to try out new things, work with new people and to be just creative with little stories. It asks just a little time investment from both cast and crew, since I shoot these in 1 or 2 days and within a month the video is certainly finished.

PS.
It can be insightfull to help on the set of other people's projects.
And it's a way to get to know people.
 
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Most of them are either people I've worked with creatively in the past who I know will tell me my works bad if it is or people I trust enough to be honest with me. I don't have anyone who's an experienced director/screenplay writer on hand if that's what you're asking. I do however have a few friends who are currently studying film that have helped me clean it up so it better fits the conventions of a proper screenplay, and they've all seemed to think it was a solid start.

It's important to avoid the "Blind leading the blind" position you can get yourself in.

Well from my understanding to put it simply it's their job to take the screenplay and manage the rest of the crew

This may only be my opinion, but wipe it from your brain. Or at a minimum replace "manage" with "lead". There are other people on a film set who are supposed to manage people.

Anyway, I read through the rest of the thread. I'd suggest that you make a short. See how it goes and make your decision from there. Odds on, you'll make a fair few before taking the leap.
 
Go for it. If you're a good writer, have good ideas, a good screenplay and can direct then why not? Christopher Nolan's first feature was watchable(ish).

Robert Rodriguez's first feature was a tremendous commercial success.
 
Go for it. If you're a good writer, have good ideas, a good screenplay and can direct then why not? Christopher Nolan's first feature was watchable(ish).

Robert Rodriguez's first feature was a tremendous commercial success.

BUT: these features were not their first efforts in filmmaking.
Although a lot of people seem to think these directors came out of the blue, they made several shorts before they even considered making a feature.
 
Oh yes, they can be very discouraging. And, in many ways, I agree with them.

There are two very distinct, but intertwined aspects to filmmaking, the technical and the artistic.

When I first was introduced to computers - a 486 with 8 MEGS of ram was hot stuff - an IT guy (they weren't called that back in 1986) told me "It's really very simple, but there is one f**k of a lot of simple." That applies to the technical aspects of filmmaking times ten. There's just too much to get wrong, and indie filmmaking is a testament to Murphy's Law; "Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong." Read through some of the threads about the adventures of getting even short films done.

Now, if, hypothetically, you have something resembling a real budget, you face another challenge; how do you know a good __________ (DP, PSM/BO, H/MU, Grips, Gaffers, craft services, etc., etc., etc.) from a bad one?

With all that said, now that you have your script, start preproduction. Begin with the script breakdown. How many actors, how many locations, wardrobe, H/MU, transportation, equipment needs and on and on; everything you are going to need to make the film. This is all the stuff that allows you to be an "artist" and tell the story that you want to tell.

Once that's done, come back and ask more questions.

Oh, and just because I have to...

Your project will only look as good as it sounds, because
"Sound is half of the experience"

If your film looks terrible but has great sound, people might just think it's your aesthetic.
If your film looks great and has bad sound, people will think you're an amateur.
Sound is the first indicator to the industry that you know what you're doing.
 
I think if you feel that you know enough about how to visually tell a story and inspire actors than go for it. In the end of the day short films have no end game. You can't make any (real) money off of them. Yet no tells you that even the cheap well done ones cost so much. And no one outside of the industry watches them.

I think it was good for me to write and direct three short films. I am primarily an actor so it allowed me to find my voice as a writer/director. I write weird stories that reflect on what's going on with my life. And while I am for sure an actors director and auteur, I direct in a poetic way.

If you know your voice don't waste your time on short films. Go for it. If not, I will say it's great training. From the first to the third I learned so much.

Age doesn't matter by the way. David O Russell didn't direct his first short until he was like 30.
 
I think if you feel that you know enough about how to visually tell a story and inspire actors than go for it. In the end of the day short films have no end game. You can't make any (real) money off of them. Yet no tells you that even the cheap well done ones cost so much. And no one outside of the industry watches them.

..............

A bit harsh view on short, but yes:
expect no profit from shorts and expect not going viral, but do the best you can nonetheless.
With such expectations it's harder to be disappointed :P
(It's a yogi way: doing with attention and without expectations is a way keep a peacefull mind.)

But expect to learn a lot.
BTW, the number of views on my shorts range from 1300 to 3600: not very impressive, but those are not all people in the industry or friends and family. So people do watch shorts, they just don't buy them...
For me it is also a way to showcase what else I can do besides my corporate work, a way to go a step beyond what my previous clients wanted (to pay for).
Building a portfolio is always good for both experience and credebility: if you want to raise funds from the crowd or investors to make your feature, it helps to have a good portfolio. Actually: without any portfolio a lot of people might think "another dreamer", while having finished projects makes you a "creative doer".
 
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