sound Question about how synthesizers work for very low budget.

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harmonica44

For a short film I was thinking of having a jazz score, and getting a composter to do it, who has a synthesizer. Now as I understand the synths can mimic instruments from electric instruments quite will such as electric guitar, and violin, but can they mimic the sounds of acoustic horns well?
 
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You don't really use a proper synth anymore, but on low and even mid budget scores items pretty normal to use midi instrumentation.

The alternative is bringing in an orchestra into a studio big enough to house them and paying for it all to be scored. 20-200 musicians, big studio space, special recording equipment, you get the idea. Software instrumentation is better than ever, and while it's bever as good as the real deal, a good composer with decent software and sample sets can do great. Even in your case looking for horns, a cheap studio musician is a few hundred a day, up to well over a thousand. Start adding up each type of horn you need.

The important thing in your situation, if you're hiring somebody it shouldn't matter too much on how they get the final product. What matters is the quality of the final product. As someone hiring it out, listen to the scores they've done before, talk to them see if you like them, then make the best decision you can.
 
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Oh OH! Geek-out!

Eek.. I've never heard an electric guitar sampled or synthesized well.. (if anyone knows different, point me in the direction.. ) If you want Jazz guitar, make sure the composer plays or can have someone come in that plays guitar.. guitars are common and cheap and It's very difficult to make one sound good with samples..

I have heard horns fairly realistic but Jazz (in my opinion) is a little bit iffy..
Definately doable - but I don't know.. Jazz requires a bit more of a human touch than orchestral music.

There is a difference between sampled instruments (which is basically each note of an instrument recorded to be played back however the composer/programmer chooses) and synthesizers (which is a sound being created from scratch/mathematical constructions of sound waves). I've heard synthesizers make drum sounds that are absolutely indistinguishable from live drums.. but tonal instruments are a little different. They have a lot more character.

If you're wondering if jazz with sampled instruments CAN be done - than yeah.. I think so. Nothing beats real recordings, but I think you can get something functional with samples/synths.

If you're wondering if you should hire someone who only has access to sampled/synthesized instruments instead of players - than I say listen to his demo reels or have him create a sample. Thirty seconds to test the realism he's capable of shouldn't be difficult and shouldn't take long on his part.

I should say that it helps if other instruments in the song are live. If the composer can record live drums, guitar, bass, and vocals - it's a lot easier to pass off sampled brass/horns as real. If it's all sampled it tends to sound a bit too stiff. If nothing else - guitar and drums played live will go a long way.

2cts.
 
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harmonica44 said:
For my film I was thinking of... getting a composter to do it...
Click to expand...

Compost is organic matter that has been decomposed; a composter does that job. It is not to be confused with a composer, someone who composes music. (I have heard scores that were good for nothing but compost...:lol:)

I'll consolidate and comment.

Synthesizers are electronic devices that uses various processes to create sounds. The original analog synthesizers used VCOs (Voltage Controlled Oscillators) to create the basis of the sound. The VCO could create sine, saw and square waves. The infamous MiniMoog had three (3) VCOs. The sound resulting from the VCO was run through a VCF (Voltage Controlled Filter); a VCF allows its cutoff frequency and Q factor to be continuously varied; it usually gives a lowpass response, but may also be switchable to allow highpass, bandpass or even notch responses. After the VCF comes the VCA (Voltage Controlled Amplifier); this controls the durations of the Attack, Decay, Sustain and Release (ADSR) of the sound. Some synthesizers also have ADSR for the filter as well as the amplitude. You can also modulate sounds (add vibrato of various types and depths), bend the pitch and use dozens of other real time controllers.

Modern synths recreate this scheme digitally, in most cases with the exception of the VCO. The old Yamaha DX7 and related synths used FM (Frequency Modulation) to produce complex waveforms. Most current synths use some form of PCM (Pulse Code Modulation), Granular Synthesis or Physical Modeling.

Digital sampling is a different process altogether; you record an actual sound (or dozens of them) and map the sound(s) to a keyboard. The sounds can still be modified with "traditional" Frequency, ADSR and other controls.

There are also orchestration libraries that attempt to provide the infinite number of articulations for the various instruments in solo and ensemble format. Besides individual notes the libraries may also include instrument phrases.

The imitation of real instruments and their subtle tones and articulations is at once very simple and very complex. Some sounds, like drums, are fairly easy to reproduce because of their short time durations. The longer the duration the more a synthetic recreation will be noticed; there are too many subtle variables that betray it's artificiality. They become less noticeable in ensemble situations.

Besides the subtlety of the instrument itself is the human performance. 'Nuf said here... :D

It is entirely possible, using sampling, sound libraries and MIDI, to recreate the tone and performance of real musicians. It takes a great deal of knowledge of both the actual instruments you are attempting to recreate and the synth/sampler systems being used. A piano trio (piano, bass, drums) is fairly easy to recreate. Piano is probably the most popular synth/sampler instrument, so a lot of effort has gone into reproducing it faithfully. Drums are fairly easy (cymbals are more complex) and a bass - stand-up or electric - is another fairly simple instrument to recreate. Add a horn section and it's not too bad, but add a solo trumpet or sax and you really have to know your sh...., ah, stuff. I've done jazz guitar solos with a sampler that impressed guitarists, and in live situations some sax work I did on a keyboard had folks looking around for the sax player. But the programming time and practice time ran into the hundreds of hours.

Anything can be recreated faithfully with enough time, money and effort. And that's where the "problems" creep in. If you have a large enough library you can cover any instrument and reproduce it faithfully, but one library can cost over $7,000, and you may need several libraries by different vendors to do an accurate recreation. I know composers with $50,000 invested in sound libraries alone. The time needed for indie composers to build the tracks is usually short, so they rarely have the time to tweak as much as they would desire. In this the "Hollywood" composer has the advantage; with two months to compose and record a score s/he can compose for six weeks and spend two weeks conducting an orchestra of the best film score professionals in the world. An indie composer with a score of equal quality, to recreate the same sonic affect, could take months.

So, yes, a synth/sampler score can be 100% convincing, you've been fooled in films over and over again without ever noticing. It's once again a question of time and budget.

There are lots of composers here on IndieTalk, and thousands more looking to practice their craft. Listen to demos and make a choice.
 
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Synthesis in scoring can be used very effectively, If you're looking for a synthetic sound, or a retro sound. Blade Runner was scored heavily with Synths by Vangelis. It was incredibly effective. Same with tron.

If you want an orchestra soundtrack. Buy it from X-ray dog, or get an orchestra. I literally have tens of thousands of dollars of the best orchestral samplers you can buy, and though they are very good, it's just hard to get the feel of a living, breathing orchestra out of the best of machines.

If you do want to score with synths, use soft synths, such as Omnisphere, EWQL orchestra, Komplete 5, etc.
They can get you a good sound on a budget. For certain compositions, you can fool people into thinking you have an orchestra for a few minutes.

Do not under any circumstances try to replicate a guitar on a synth, it's just awful
 
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I really like this composter, it is bear proof.
 

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As for jazz, look up the Steroid Maximus album "Ectopia". All done by J.G. Thirlwell, all on a laptop. He does the soundtrack to the Venture Bros. as well. Great stuff, big band meets electronica. Not perfect, but probably the best I've ever heard.
 
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A truly professional composter is likely to use the following tools in their work: a chipper, a mulcher, various pitch forks and rakes.
A composer on the other hand is unlikely to use those. So having divuluged that useless piece of information, I will make a couple of possibly useful points;
a) don't try and use guitar sounds from a synth. Get a real guitar player..they sound far more convincing
b) It can be quite convincing to use a real string instrument or two, like violins for example blended in with orchestra samples. It would be beyond most peoples budgets here to employ an orchestra, but it might be affordable to employ one or two strings players and get them to add parts to a composition.
 
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I don't think you're thinking about this quite right. Nobody can play the guitar well on synth, you play the guitar with, well, a guitar. If you're playing a 'synth', you're sat in front of a keyboard. You'd then program you're 'synth' so that when you play a key on the keyboard, it doesn't sound like a keyboard, it sounds like a guitar. That's where the problem lies, a keyboard is a very different animal to a guitar. You can't bend the keys of a keyboard, you can't play a keyboard with a slide... You can simulate all these things, but it'll never sound organic, not like a real guitar.

That said though, the same jazz scales apply to all instruments, so if you play a scale on a keyboard, then make it sound like a guitar, it'll sound right, but it wont sound like a guitar.


rocksure said:
A truly professional composter is likely to use the following tools in their work: a chipper, a mulcher, various pitch forks and rakes. A composer on the other hand is unlikely to use those...
Click to expand...

If Jimmy Page played a Les Paul with pitch fork I bet it would sound awesome! :yes:
 
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mad_hatter said:
I don't think you're thinking about this quite right. Nobody can play the guitar well on synth, you play the guitar with, well, a guitar. If you're playing a 'synth', you're sat in front of a keyboard. You'd then program you're 'synth' so that when you play a key on the keyboard, it doesn't sound like a keyboard, it sounds like a guitar. That's where the problem lies, a keyboard is a very different animal to a guitar. You can't bend the keys of a keyboard, you can't play a keyboard with a slide... You can simulate all these things, but it'll never sound organic, not like a real guitar.

That said though, the same jazz scales apply to all instruments, so if you play a scale on a keyboard, then make it sound like a guitar, it'll sound right, but it wont sound like a guitar.




If Jimmy Page played a Les Paul with pitch fork I bet it would sound awesome! :yes:
Click to expand...

For sure strings are different than keys in the way they are played. However is there any software that is programmed to make the strings sound as if they are actually being played, by selecting it at will? If not what about a music composer who has a synthesizer guitar? That way they can play guitar on the synth, but also play other string instruments and make them sound like real strings, like the synthesized violin and such. If that works.
 
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You are being led astray here. You can indeed bend the notes of keyboard with the bender or slide module. Jordan Rudess, Derek Sherinian, and Kevin Moore would be examples of players who duplicate guitar playing. Listen to 6:00 by Dream Theater for an example. I don't mean to be critical but cite your source or know one before you give someone bad advice.

My recommendation would be to find a progressive keyboardist in your area, sit down and explore your sound options. I watched firestarter and those were 80s keys but that soundtrack was amazing. Or check out the andromeda strain. Keys have a place. Maybe you should consider letting an artist interpret your ideas.

Even for musicians scoring can be daunting.



In addition all instruments use the same western scale, twelve notes. All instruments can play all the scales unless they are fixed to a key. So a major scale on a guitar is a major scale on a piano. Just throwing that out there.
 
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Okay, I admit that maybe my use of “can’t” is a bit too absolute here. You can synthetically reproduce these sorts of sounds, but shifting the pitch of a note played on a keyboard is different to physically bending the string of a guitar, it sounds different. I, personally, have never heard an organic-sounding, synthesized guitar. I’ve heard passable guitars synthesisers, but nothing that I’ve actually liked the sound of.

But then again, as Alcove pointed out above, maybe I’ve heard lots of synthetic guitars that have been so good, they’ve completely fooled me.

My biggest worry is that Harmonica here is going for jazz playing, which, not that I’ve ever tried myself, I think would possibly be the hardest musical genre to recreate on synthesisers and virtual instruments.
 
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I think there will be many people out there who are a good fit for a budget jazz film score. Since I think you're still writing the script you hve a long time to find this person. If I were you I'd be looking for someone with a jazz background looking for film scoring experience. There are so many styles if jazz and once you know what you're after it will be easier to define but a jazz guitarist with keyboard skills or even a horn/keyboard player will probably be a good fit. The entire score does not need to be done with midi. The right person is out there you just need to find them and they don't need to be Canadian.
 
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The issue is this: with sampled instruments (in rare cases are we actually talking about synthesized sounds, which really excel when NOT trying to sound like an organic instrument), it takes a LOT of work to make it sound "convincing". This is not a bad thing for those of us who can't afford to have an orchestra on call, and well worth the effort.

With guitars, however, it's just not worth the effort. It's MUCH easier to find a guitar player than it is an orchestra. Hell, where I am, it's easier to find a decent guitarist than a good drummer. You could spend 100+ hours making a guitar sound good, or you could spend a fraction of that time to find someone to play the part for you.

Of course, if that style of manipulation is your thing, go for it (as a sometimes noise artist, I understand and appreciate sonic sculpting), but 90% of the time you'll get better results just finding a guitarist. And as others have said, one or two live instruments on top of a sequenced mix will go a long way (a rule I need to remind myself of more often).
 
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