Question about doing a sound mix.

[harmonica44]

The last short film I did, the sound mix cost a few thousand dollars and to get to sound good, and I took a hit... which is one of the reasons which I haven't done another one since. I was told on here to do a zero budget short, and just do the sound mix myself, but I haven been playing around with a lot of trial and error and find the sound mixing difficult to do.

I was able to learn a lot video editing and color grading on my own and feel I have gotten better in that department. But I find myself still struggling on how to do a sound mix. I got that book that was recommended to me on here before, "Dialogue Editing for Motion Pictures: A Guide to the Invisible Art".

But I felt the book was more of a history lesson in dialogue editing, rather than giving actual instructions that would apply to a modern system. Plus of course, I want to do the whole mix, and not just the dialogue. Does anyone have suggestions on how to learn this stuff better, or any books that would help me do it on my own? Thanks for any input. I really appreciate it.

 

[indietalk]

I think we shoudl all be done at this point. I thought I was done months ago. This time I am.

 

[harmonica44]

Bingo.

If you're aware that there may be sounds that may not be consistent, always record at least a minute of room tone. That way you can just overlap it throughout the whole scene.

I had a shot where it was a party scene. The actual shoot? Only the main actors are talking. Background actors are mouthing nonsense. Later on we just recorded everyone talking for a minute or so and had that as our background.

Okay thanks. I recorded a minute of room tone for every room in that scene. However, people are saying that it's jarring when the room tone switches from room to room, cause the computer ambient noise comes on. If I have a scene that goes from room to room, should I not use the room tone from each room, and just use one overall room tone? Cause I used each room's own room tone, in that scene as it switches from room to room, so is that too jarring?

 

[sfoster]

If I have a scene that goes from room to room, should I not use the room tone from each room, and just use one overall room tone?

 

[harmonica44]

Well I assume I should use each room tone for each room, but if the room tone itself, is problematic or has noise of a computer that cannot be turned off, then what? Plus what's wrong with asking questions... I am just asking, is it really worth putting that picture of Homer Simpson as a response, I was just wondering and asking a question...

 

[Nyati]

Continuity. Think about that word.

Nobody cares what each room sounds like. That is exactly the point. That's why you want them to sound the same, unless there is a really good reason for them to sound different. Like inside vs outside. Or factory with machines vs office with people.

 

[harmonica44]

Okay thanks. But here is what I don't understand. The reason why room tone is recorded is so that the background sounds the same as the clips of dialogue coming from the character's right?

If the actors are in room A, and then walk into room B, the room tone will change, in the background of the recorded dialogue. So if I decided to have the room tone from room A, over top of room B, for continuity, wouldn't the audience here that there is a different room tone in the dialogue clips, compared to the room tone of the background, if the room tone is from a different room.

 

[Nyati]

If your story is about documenting the sound of different rooms, then, yes. Make sure they hear the sound from each room.

Does having a different sound from one room to the other add or detract from the story. It's annoying. That's why you record an ambient track to play over any silence that you create when you remove an annoying sound from a room.

 

[Nyati]

I would start with learning the editing program. Once you do that, you will be prepared to address finer issues.

It's like a guy without a drivers license wanting to know how to address turn number 3 at Texas Motor Speedway in an Indy car while it's raining.

Baby steps man, baby steps!

 

[sfoster]

nyati he is going from outside in the city to inside in an office.

the ambience is supposed to change.

personally i always use the room tone of the dialogue i'm recording but any ambience can do the trick.
the point is to not hear when the dialogue tracks begin and end. you need to disguise those endpoints and ambient tracks are the best way.

you never want an abrupt change in sound unless it's intentional to shock the audience.
like in the matrix "the oracle will see you now" it's sudden and jarring

 

[harmonica44]

Okay thanks, well next time I can have the crossfade in the audio last longer from room to room, if that is better?

 

[Nyati]

nyati he is going from outside in the city to inside in an office.

the ambience is supposed to change.

We may be on different pages. I got the impression he was talking about inside a house from one room to another room. I did mention that it should change, if there is a good reason for it to change. Outside to inside, factory to office etc.

In any case, most everyone here did a good job explaining it.

 

[harmonica44]

Okay thanks. Well I tried a number of things in the audio, but it still jumps from one room tone to the other as it goes from scene to scene. What is the best way to get rid of that in editing audio?

 

[Nyati]

Experience.

 

[harmonica44]

Yeah but I am just here asking for what method in premiere pro since this is a post production forum, rather than applying trial and error all the time.

 

[Nyati]

Exactly. You refuse to learn. You want the answer handed to you for every issue you encounter.

Learn the software. With learning, comes problem solving capabilities.

 

[Sweetie]

You refuse to learn.

You know, I wish I could print out all his threads, and all the answers.

... and then beat him to death with them. In his dying breathe, he'd whisper, "Yes... but..." and die, and the world would rejoice.

Perhaps this could be a crowd funding campaign that would get funded solely by Indietalk members???

We'll make a film from it. We'll call it, "H44, yes, but"

 

[mlesemann]

Originally posted by Sweetie: You know, I wish I could print out all his threads, and all the answers.

... and then beat him to death with them. In his dying breathe, he'd whisper, "Yes... but..." and die, and the world would rejoice.

This is getting very close to a threat, whether intended that way or not - back off the edge of that ledge, please.

 

[sfoster]

You know, I wish I could print out all his threads, and all the answers.

Who is paying for all that printer ink?!?

 

[Alcove Audio]

Who is paying for all that printer ink?!?

And which forest did you want to disappear to supply all of the paper?

 

[Noiz2]

Okay thanks. But here is what I don't understand. The reason why room tone is recorded is so that the background sounds the same as the clips of dialogue coming from the character's right?

If the actors are in room A, and then walk into room B, the room tone will change, in the background of the recorded dialogue. So if I decided to have the room tone from room A, over top of room B, for continuity, wouldn't the audience here that there is a different room tone in the dialogue clips, compared to the room tone of the background, if the room tone is from a different room.

OK I read through a lot of this thread and a few things jump out.

First focus on shooting the story, really. Assume your first five or ten films will be junk, because they will be. If you are a great talent they will be watchable with some serious issues, if you are not lucky they will only be watchable by those who want to see themselves on the screen.

But they will be better as you go as long as you don't spend a ton of energy trying to make a "Hollywood Film" because you are not going to.

As a sound professional I would recommend that you basically forget sound on your first few films. Stick a mic on the camera or (much better) get a friend who WANTS to do production sound to learn with you and boom it.

Purcell's book is not a "history" of dialog editing it's a handbook for how dialog IS edited on a big film. It's a great book and not of a lot of use on no budget films.

Room Tone serves one purpose, and that is to fill the holes in production tracks. It is used by dialog editors.

Ambience, backgrounds and all sound FX are used by FX editors. RT is "noise", ideally noise that matches the noise in the production track.

My advice is to forget you heard the term. It really only has a place in big budget filmmaking and ENG/ Docs where they are going to just about zero sound post. People who use TR in no budget films tend to use it instead of ambiences and backgrounds and it is a big failure in that use. You ambiences etc. NEED to belong to the "world" your story takes place in. Unless that world is a no-budget film set it is the wrong ambience for the scene.

Films are NOT mixed while shooting partly for the reason above and partly because you can't "mix" till after you edit.

NLE's make lousy sound editing aps. Very few picture editors are decent sound editors and the ones that are good at it almost never do both on the same film. And I can only think of one editor (professionally) who is really good at both.

So if after your first bunch of films you really want to do your own sound then do it in a standard low budget workflow. Cut the picture and lock it down. Then export the film to a sound app and switch your mind into sound mode.

Picture is all about starting with a pile of shots and trimming it down to your film. Sound is the exact opposite. You start with production (and yes I guess the clean up is trimming away, but not really) and you build an entire world from scratch. ALL you want from production is clean dialog.

So assuming you have a boom op, the fastest way to better sound is to keep that mic as close to the actors as possible. The general rule is if the actor can not reach out and touch the mic it's too far away. In practice a good boom op in a close shut may be in head butting range.

And never make the mistake of thinking you can "fix" it in post.

So your first film. Put it in the drawer and go shoot another. With out the sound edit session and all the files to reopen it you really can't do much of anything with it. It is what it is, and that is your first film. If it's watchable at all it's a great success.