"One Page per Minute" = SUCKS!!

[Birdman]

Whose idea was this anyway?

I'm having difficulty with this brutally severe "1 page per minute" philosophy regarding writing a screenplay. I envision scenes within my head and I try to convey these images within my script. I'm on page 19 right now, but it doesn't seem like 19 minutes of film footage has passed by. I fear I'm looking at a 3-hour butt-nummer of a movie when I'm finally finished. Here are my issues:

(1) In "Lord of The Rings" we have a spectacular scene where Gandalf races down the side of a mountain with a huge army of horse-bound soldiers in a surprise attack on the attacking enemy. He has the sun at his back creating an extremely memorable scene with amazing special effects. Any movie goer would be truly amazed at the scene in a theater. Here's my issue:

To keep with the "page-per-minute" dogma, one might write this scene as done here:

=========================================

EXT. SIDE OF MOUNTAIN - DAY

Gandalf and a legion of horse-mounted soldiers race down the side of a mountain with the sun blazing behind them. They attack the unsuspecting enemy.

=========================================

So here we have a small, emotionless, robotic section of screenplay script depicting one of the most powerful cinemagraphic scenes in movie history. It's quickly spat out in a couple of fairly unflattering sentences. To read the two sentences written above in no way adequately depicts what happens in the movie ...but if you start adding in any extra detail to try and emphasize the importance of the scene you endanger breaking the "page per minute" rule. ....What do you do????

In contrast:

(2) If you have a back and forth conversation going on between two characters you could end up with several pages of script that only translates to 20 seconds or so of film footage. For example:

====================================

INT. KITCHEN - DAY

JOE

You suck!

SAM

No I don't

JOE

Yes you do!

SAM

Screw you!

JOE

NO! ...Screw you!

SAM

No, Go screw yourself!

etc.

etc.

etc.

So here we have a scene with a quick, rapid fire verbal exchange. Your text quickly moves down the page much faster than a second hand on a clock. This exchange could easily eat up three pages of script but only translate to 20 or so seconds of film footage. ...What do you do?



Is the overall idea that everything will balance out in the end? In other words, some pages exceed the "page per minute" rule but they end up being balanced by scenes with quick exchanges that use much less script time?

-Birdman

P.S. I am very disappointed on how restrictive these scripts become based on the "page per minute" rule. I don't see how anyone could ever truly understand what I'm seeing within my mind based on the extremely limited amount of script space I'm allowed to use for communication what I see. I'm finding that a script for a typical 105 minute movie that is now ready for production is ending up 187 pages long. The rule doesn't seem to apply here. ...Why is that? .......Also, if you are a well-known script writer you get to exceed the "page per minute" rule. Why is one "equally creative" person allowed to blatantly break the formatting rules whereas another is not?

 

[Birdman]

Keep Descriptions Brief and Tight
http://reelauthors.com/script-analysis-coverage/keep-descriptions-brief-and-tight.php

Size matters: Keep to 95-110 Pages For Spec Screenplays
http://reelauthors.com/script-analysis-coverage/size-matters-keep-within-95-to-110-pages.php

Screenwriting is Not Novel Writing
http://reelauthors.com/script-analysis-coverage/screenwriting-is-not-novel-writing.php

Indie, I'm not saying you are personally responsible for my "Page per Minute" debacle. What I'm saying is that these two links you posted above have contributed to my concern. I've found other links echoing the same thing as these. You have posted these links in other threads as I have them already bookmarked.

-Birdman

 

[Birdman]

Birdman,

I've posted this in another thread, but thought I would post it again in light of IndiePaul's comments.

This is a photo of our office after we had spent a few months outlining our feature script. This work was all done before we ever started typing a page.

...I remember this picture from that thread. I think I had a comment or two in that thread. Things are a lot easier when you know what to do before your fingers even reach the keypad.

-Birdman

 

[IndiePaul]

Indie, I'm not saying you are personally responsible for my "Page per Minute" debacle. What I'm saying is that these two links you posted above have contributed to my concern. I've found other links echoing the same thing as these. You have posted these links in other threads as I have them already bookmarked.

-Birdman

Okay, obviously 'page per minute' is not the same thing as the professional screenwriting advice of writing tightly and minimizing verbose and novel-writing prose (both of which I advise and have written posts and articles on) hence my confusion with you post.

Thanks for clarifying though.

Note: my first screenplay was actually a Sci-Fi one. I loved that script. I did write it in a verbose style (not novel verbose but detailed enough to put agents/readers off) - not realizing such a style was not the pro way and actually highly inadvisable for newbies. I did not understand pro screenwriting techniques back then. Learnt my lessons the hard way...

Great post ahennessey - love the board.
.

 

[Cracker Funk]

When it comes to the actual film, the page/minute rule is not just effected heavily by how the script is written, but probably more so by the work of the director.

I'm not a spec writer, nor do I have any desire to be one, but my rough understanding is that the page/minute rule can be very largely influenced by how much the screenwriter adheres to the black/white test (or whatever it's called).

As I understand it, you should be able to flip through a printed screenplay, and see a roughly equal mix of black (action) and white (dialogue). If you've got too much of one or another, your screenplay might very well be problematic (and might not fit into the page/minute generalization).

 

[directorik]

That is 100% correct! Just this one. I am NOT a writer. I hate writing most of the time, but in this case I am unable to separate my fingers from the keypad. I had an epiphany and the movie plays out in my head every day. I don't see myself ever writing another even if this one did sell (unless I had another epiphany - which is doubtful).

I'm going to be the bearer of bad news; You have almost no
change of getting an agent. Too harsh? You want the sugar
coated version? I'll sugar coat it for you if you ask. But for
now I'll just give it to you straight:

Unless your script is amazing no agent will consider a "one
trick pony". It is not in their interest. So write it exactly the
way you see it; 120 pages, 130 pages, 180 pages - do not
sacrifice your vision for "rules".

I ABSOLUTELY DO believe my script is great!

Not my point at all. But I'm glad you feel you have a great script.
Going to your original point about feeling restricted by the "rules";
if your script is really that good, better than anything an agent, a
producer, a director, a development exec and a head of production
read in years then nothing will stop them from spending as much
money as necessary to get your script and make it into a movie.

What I don't understand is .........doesn't everyone else feel the same way about their own spec script?

Yes. And 99.999% of them are not. My point was not about your
feelings. Writers who feel the KNOW their movie would be a serious
hit are most likely incorrect. Watching movies all your life is not a
realistic indication that you know what will be a hit and what might
fail to reach a paying audience.

I wish you the best with this script. My advice is to NOT sacrifice
your vision or how you write it to follow any of the "rules" you feel
hold you back. Write it at the length you feel it needs the way you
envision it in your head. As I already said, if the script is that good,
you will have no problem at all getting an agent who will put together
the right producer with the right studio who will bring on the very best
talent available. No one, NO ONE, will toss it because it is too long.

If the script isn't all those things I mentioned, you have no chance.
But it is, right?

 

[IndiePaul]

directorik: good advice as always.

I would say though that if the OP writes his script in a verbose and 120-130 page length style many agents/prodcos would bin the script by page one - unless the OP's writing and story stands out even on page one.

We all know that many agents can and do judge a script within the first page. Most will give a script 5-10 pages to impress them, some more, many less.

Great writing should impress from page one though.

.

 

[rayw]

ahennessey,...You have kind, soothing words that prompt me to keep plugging away with my script's color commentary. I WANT to believe your way will pan out ...but you and "rayw" represent opposite ends of the spec script spectrum. He's saying that my script is probably going to end up as a page one rewrite anyway and that all of my over-the-top Shakespearean efforts at communicating what's going on in my script will be ultimately re-written by some cold blooded producer's in-house literary goon squad. He feels they are going to decorate my "tree" however they see fit.

Thinking of you... XOXOXOXOX: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ruins_(film)#Alternate_endings

"An alternate ending used in the unrated cut of the film shows Amy driving away from the ruins, but this time the vines appear under the skin of her face and her eye fills with blood revealing she became infected with the vines as well. A second version of the scene plays out identically, but then cuts to a cemetery where a caretaker is walking among the headstones whistling Frère Jacques. He hears the same tune coming from Amy's grave. Around the headstone lie a few of the same red flowers, and as the caretaker reaches for one, the music surges and the scene cuts to black.

Director Carter Smith told an interviewer, "We shot a bunch of different stuff to see which one would work best with the finished film. There's a testing process you go through with a studio movie and as frustrating as it can be, it also really gives you a good sense of how an audience feels about an ending. Our final decision was informed by what audiences found the most satisfying after watching a really punishing film. I love the ending of the book, but if the movie had ended the same way, the audience would have wanted to kill themselves.""​

OMG!
You... you mean... you mean the writer doesn't hand down ye Holy screenplay down from on high for the dutiful minions of producers, directors, and distributors to follow to the letter?
Gasp!

See.
Told you so.

And this is neither anecdotal nor atypical.
Read the production notes for 'Salt.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_(2010_film)#Production
Then watch it with the DVD director commentary. See how much was made up on set - irregardless of the Holy screenplay.
Do the same for 'The Expendables.' I think Stallone makes cr@p films but I think he's one of the coolest directors to work for that I've read about and listened to.

Seriously, you need to watch about three or four dozen director/actor/producer/writer commentaries on DVD bonus/extras.
You'll learn a lot about craft and "enthusiasm".

Write your story.
Clever is better than ostentatious.

More this -

Less this -

 

[maz]

directorik: good advice as always.

I would say though that if the OP writes his script in a verbose and 120-130 page length style many agents/prodcos would bin the script by page one - unless the OP's writing and story stands out even on page one.

We all know that many agents can and do judge a script within the first page. Most will give a script 5-10 pages to impress them, some more, many less.

Great writing should impress from page one though.

.

Just thought I'd hijack the thread for a moment to say thanks for those excellent guides on your website. Some really good stuff in there.

My only criticism would be that the example of script you use to illustrate 'past tense' is not actually in the past tense! Maybe something to look at, but what do I know?

 

[directorik]

I would say though that if the OP writes his script in a verbose and 120-130 page length style many agents/prodcos would bin the script by page one - unless the OP's writing and story stands out even on page one.

Exactly what I said, IndiePaul. We are in agreement.

The common misinformation is producers and agents will toss a script
based on length. That does not happen. I know many “gurus” say it
happens, but it doesn't. Producers and agents do not even see the
script until it is covered by a reader. And a reader cannot toss a script
they are assigned to cover.

I want to say, up front, that for those of you who will point out the
exceptions I acknowlege that there are some people in this industry
who do not do their job well. This is not unusual or exceptional; there
are people in every industry who do not do their job well. Readers are
no exceptions. But in general the “reader” is a person on the move up
and will do their job well in order to impress their boss and get promoted.
So they do their job and that job is to cover scripts.

The reader will send their coverage to the producer or agent. If the long
script is truly excellent that will be on the coverage and the producer or
agent will not toss it. If the reader passes the producer or agent will read
the coverage but will never even see the script.

 

[Birdman]

I'm going to be the bearer of bad news; You have almost no
chance of getting an agent.

directorik, I can't argue with you or anyone else on this issue. The input posted in this thread has been echoed all over the other sources I've read. I know it's a long shot. I've milked my argument about as far as I possibly can. ...Let's just leave it with this:

I'm on page 27 of my screenplay. My main character is plummeting through a planet's scorching atmosphere and her escape pod is burning away. She just got a message from her onboard computer: "Warning! Catastrophic System Failure" and everything just went blank. She's been attacked. She's wounded. Her crew has abandoned her. Her ship was destroyed ...and now she's about to crash land at 25K miles per hour on some mysterious planet's rocky surface with no onboard controls.

She has just enough time to pop open her iPad and login to the "indieSpace Traveler's Guide" website. She reads the latest follow-up post in her "Having Problems with Re-entry" thread and it's from someone named, "PhysicistRik":

I'm going to be the bearer of bad news; You have almost no
chance of surviving your crash landing.

...So now this poor, helpless girl has just had the last remaining fragments of hope quickly stripped from her by "PhysicistRik" and his cold, brutal logic and reason.

But unknown to this poor girl is that there is a higher power watching over her. A power so great that he can control everything that happens to her in a second! He's light years away in some other galaxy ...another dimension ...and he holds the keys to her very survival.

..........it's ME!!!

She doesn't know it yet, but with a few magical strokes on my keypad she's going to survive this crash landing. Her life isn't over by a long shot! In fact, she's about to embark on a journey of a lifetime and discover things she never thought possible. I'm going to place her in situations that try her spirit, test her resolve and change her into something far greater than she ever was before. That's right! Her prayers are about to be answered by a middle-aged god on planet earth who has a Dell computer and an academic discount version of "Final Draft" that he conned his wife into buying for him!

===========================

All I can do is hope that somewhere out there is a higher power just like posted above. He's on His computer clicking away, testing my resolve, trying my spirit ...watching over me just like I am with her. Maybe I'll end up seeing my screenplay brought to life in a movie theater one day? ....Maybe I'll be taken on the ride of a lifetime just as well? .................All we can really do is hope.

Thanks to everyone for their input!

-Birdman

 

[rayw]

Sounds very 1950's.

 

[directorik]

...So now this poor, helpless girl has just had the last remaining fragments of hope quickly stripped from her by "PhysicistRik" and his cold, brutal logic and reason.

I'm sorry you took my post the way you did.

PhysicistRik also said, If you truly have the talent and skills to
land this ship you can do it. Ignore all the rules you were taught
(like one page is one minute), get off the “IndieSpace Traveler's
Guide” and fly that damn ship.

Write your script exactly the way you see it. Do NOT sacrifice your
vision or how you write it to follow any of the rules you feel hold
you back. Write it at the length you feel it needs to be; the way
you envision it in your head. If the script is that good, you will have
no problem at all getting an agent who will put together the right
producer with the right studio who will bring on the very best talent
available.

No one, NO ONE, will toss it because it is too long if it is an excellent
script.

 

[IndiePaul]

My Sci-Fi spec (my first screenplay) didn't sell but I'm still proud as hell of it.

Just write the best you can.

directorik and others have offered excellent advice on this thread.

If your story is very original and grabs attention, that can even land a deal. Specs have sold because a director/prodco etc loved a logline/storyline and bought the spec based on that alone. Sure a pro writer is then brought on board to do some re-writing but you'd still get a writing or story-by credit.

.

 

[ChimpPhobiaFilms]

1 pg. per minute is not a set in stone rule.
Agents don't always throw away scripts by their length.
It is hard, but possible to get into the industry.
Write the best script you can.

 

[Birdman]

Chimp, Indie, director, rayw, maz, mlesemann, Zola, ahennessey, Josh, Metro, and time2focus,

Thank you all very VERY much for the follow-up information. Special thanks to Ray for his Ninja pictures. .....Very funny, and clever! I've got some high maintenance space chick to save from a horrible crash landing.

-Birdman

 

[Sweetie]

...The market would be whoever enjoyed movies like "Kill Bill", "E.T.", "Erin Brockovich", "The Matrix" and the "Star Trek" movies.

...This is an issue for me. It's a solid (R) rating right now. Could it be toned down? ...Probably. I'm writing it as how I would like to see it up on the screen. I'm adding in the things I want to see. There are certain elements in this script that would please the "Matrix" crowd. Others that would please the "E.T." crowd. Bringing the two together in a (PG) setting will be difficult.

umm... you may need to rethink this. You've got Family, action, adult all together, on top of that, slapping on an R rating. So the majority of your audience (young) cannot watch your movie now, and most of the other half won't go without their kids. Kill Bill and The Matrix still have a large audience potential, though, they're really different audiences with some overlap. You may just be explaining it in a way that I'm not getting.

Even if everything else that has been mentioned in this thread is successfully done, there's another relevant question. How many movies in the last 5 years had an R rating and made $200mil+ in the box office? Armed with the answer to that question, what do you think are your chances of getting your movie greenlit? While this isn't usually the job of a writer to consider, if I was going to spend time writing and trying to sell a spec script, I'd like to know what the odds are.

 

[rayw]

Even if everything else that has been mentioned in this thread is successfully done, there's another relevant question. How many movies in the last 5 years had an R rating and made $200mil+ in the box office? Armed with the answer to that question, what do you think are your chances of getting your movie greenlit?

Excellent point, and SHOCKER!: I've already done the homework on that!

(2nd chart)

Try to make it a PG-13, not an R.
And steer clear of drama.

 

[Birdman]

Well, mine was posted as a Sci-Fi "Adventure" ...so at least I'm in one of the best categories to be in. As far as the (R) rating goes ...It's easier to cut something down than to add it in. They can change my "Shit!" to "Damn!" if they want.

Too bad about the sex scene, though.

And Sweetie, you can't deduce a screenplay is incorrectly targeted just because it draws from a diverse group of movie goers or because certain elements of everyday human life are included. You would need a lot more info than just that! That's like saying a novel is incorrectly targeted because the words, tree, fish, coin, football, and lips are in it.

-Birdman

 

[Birdman]

Market Share for Each Creative Type 1995-2013

#4 Science Fiction 612 $21,525,857,020 4,089,216,483 9.42%

Top-Grossing Genres 1995 to 2013

#2 Adventure 570 $34,954,489,527 $61,323,666 21.29%

...And I have no interest in writing a comedy!


BTW: 25% of the top-grossing movies in the last 20 years were Sci-Fi's. Six out of these twenty movies were "Superhero" movies ...to which I fully expect my main character to have an action figure made in her likeness!

So I'm in the 11 out of 20 in the target audience range. ....Not too bad!

-Birdman

 

[maz]

just to hijack the discussion again a little bit... i'm having a go at writing my first ever screenplay. it's an adaptation of my own novel. the problem (perhaps) is that in the early stages of the film a major event happens (scene 2), and much of the next 10-20 pages is people cut off from one another, so it is just a lot of suspenseful scenes, with only sparse dialogue. as a novelist i'm aware of overwriting, and i'm trying to keep my action descriptions brief, but obviously as there's so little dialogue it ends up taking up half pages at a time... sometimes whole scenes with no dialogue.

is this normal? is it 'acceptable' (whatever that really means)?