"One Page per Minute" = SUCKS!!

[Birdman]

Whose idea was this anyway?

I'm having difficulty with this brutally severe "1 page per minute" philosophy regarding writing a screenplay. I envision scenes within my head and I try to convey these images within my script. I'm on page 19 right now, but it doesn't seem like 19 minutes of film footage has passed by. I fear I'm looking at a 3-hour butt-nummer of a movie when I'm finally finished. Here are my issues:

(1) In "Lord of The Rings" we have a spectacular scene where Gandalf races down the side of a mountain with a huge army of horse-bound soldiers in a surprise attack on the attacking enemy. He has the sun at his back creating an extremely memorable scene with amazing special effects. Any movie goer would be truly amazed at the scene in a theater. Here's my issue:

To keep with the "page-per-minute" dogma, one might write this scene as done here:

=========================================

EXT. SIDE OF MOUNTAIN - DAY

Gandalf and a legion of horse-mounted soldiers race down the side of a mountain with the sun blazing behind them. They attack the unsuspecting enemy.

=========================================

So here we have a small, emotionless, robotic section of screenplay script depicting one of the most powerful cinemagraphic scenes in movie history. It's quickly spat out in a couple of fairly unflattering sentences. To read the two sentences written above in no way adequately depicts what happens in the movie ...but if you start adding in any extra detail to try and emphasize the importance of the scene you endanger breaking the "page per minute" rule. ....What do you do????

In contrast:

(2) If you have a back and forth conversation going on between two characters you could end up with several pages of script that only translates to 20 seconds or so of film footage. For example:

====================================

INT. KITCHEN - DAY

JOE

You suck!

SAM

No I don't

JOE

Yes you do!

SAM

Screw you!

JOE

NO! ...Screw you!

SAM

No, Go screw yourself!

etc.

etc.

etc.

So here we have a scene with a quick, rapid fire verbal exchange. Your text quickly moves down the page much faster than a second hand on a clock. This exchange could easily eat up three pages of script but only translate to 20 or so seconds of film footage. ...What do you do?



Is the overall idea that everything will balance out in the end? In other words, some pages exceed the "page per minute" rule but they end up being balanced by scenes with quick exchanges that use much less script time?

-Birdman

P.S. I am very disappointed on how restrictive these scripts become based on the "page per minute" rule. I don't see how anyone could ever truly understand what I'm seeing within my mind based on the extremely limited amount of script space I'm allowed to use for communication what I see. I'm finding that a script for a typical 105 minute movie that is now ready for production is ending up 187 pages long. The rule doesn't seem to apply here. ...Why is that? .......Also, if you are a well-known script writer you get to exceed the "page per minute" rule. Why is one "equally creative" person allowed to blatantly break the formatting rules whereas another is not?

 

[ChimpPhobiaFilms]

1 page 1 minute isn't always correct, but I don't see it as something bad. It can keep screenwriters from not going overboard and not making something that will end up 30 minutes long (if film is meant to be a feature). The Lord of The Rings question doesn't make sense to me. Peter Jackson was involved in the writing of the film, and it is an adaptation of a book, which most likely has incredibly vivid description of the scene. I don't see how extending the scene out would endanger the 1 minute 1 page rule. Also, it's not a set in stone rule. It's just a general concept that many people like to use to keep their script at a tolerable length.

 

[Birdman]

1 page 1 minute isn't always correct, but I don't see it as something bad. It can keep screenwriters from not going overboard and not making something that will end up 30 minutes long (if film is meant to be a feature). The Lord of The Rings question doesn't make sense to me. Peter Jackson was involved in the writing of the film, and it is an adaptation of a book, which most likely has incredibly vivid description of the scene. I don't see how extending the scene out would endanger the 1 minute 1 page rule. Also, it's not a set in stone rule. It's just a general concept that many people like to use to keep their script at a tolerable length.

True, the LOTR series was based on previously written books ....but what if you were starting from scratch? What if these books never existed, ...but you envisioned exactly what was shown in the theaters? That scene deserves far more than the two sentences that the script analysis firms, forum posters and script analysis firms would demand that you succumb to.

Everywhere I read is DOES seem to be a "set in stone" rule. If I hand over a script for a 105 minute movie and it's actually a 130 page document ....BOOM! ...Into the trash can it goes! ...I read countless horror stories where agents can "feel" how heavy the script is and can determine through it's weight whether or not you've exceeded 105 pages or not ...just so they don't have to waste any time looking to see how many pages it actually is. ....BOOM! ...Into the trash it goes without even reading the damned title page!

-Birdman

 

[ChimpPhobiaFilms]

What’s Up, Doc? was a 94-minute movie with a 154-page script.

The Long Kiss Goodnight was a 120-minute movie with a 139-page script.

Crimson Tide was a 123-minute movie (extended version) with a 111-page script.

Young Frankenstein was a 106-minute movie with a 116-page script.

Jaws was a 124-minute movie with a 113-page script.

Secret Window was a 96-minute movie with a 118-page script.

Paper Moon was a 102-minute movie with a 126-page script.

The Poseidon Adventure (1972) was a 117-minute movie with a 134-page script.

The Mechanic (1972) was a 100-minute movie with a 113-page script.

Pacific Heights was a 102-minute movie with a 118-page script.

Three Days of the Condor was a 117-minute movie with a 130-page script.

And finally…

Rosemary’s Baby was a 136-minute movie with a 167-page script!

I've done my research, haven't I? Unless you count copy and pasting a portion of the first article that pops up when I write "1 page 1 minute screenplay" in Google, than no. When I write in "1 page - 1 minute screenplay" or "1 page - 1 minute screenplay rule" I find mixed views on the topic ranging from MANDATORY to not always the case. Sure, some script analysis firms and forum posters will judge it upon length. That means you find someone else to pick it up, or you simplify the script by taking out parts and cutting down on detail.

but what if you were starting from scratch?

I would probably direct it as well. But if that's not an option, then I'd keep it short and sweet if it meant I got people reading my script and possibly getting it made.

Into the trash it goes without even reading the damned title page!

Sure, but there are also times when people don't even care how long the script is. They just trash it and move on with their day. Getting into the screenplay business is difficult anyway. Thousands of screenplays are sent into the "Hollywood system", and they are either rewritten and never given credit, or flat out dismissed and throw in the trash for no particular reason besides laziness.

 

[mlesemann]

It's a guideline, not a hard & fast rule.

My 91 page screenplay became a rough cut of 95 minutes, which was eventually edited down to 87 minutes.

A friend who directed & produced the screenplay that he wrote started with a script of about 101 pages; he edited the final product down to about 80 minutes because that's what worked best.

 

[ZolaScope]

The 1 page = 1 minute is a rule of thumb for judging how a given screenplay will translate into screen time. It's NOT a rule you're supposed to use when writing. How could you? It's not your job, as writer, to dictate how the action you describe will be filmed. You could write a single line that the director might decide needs fleshing out into 10 minutes of action. Or you could write a detailed, half-page description that becomes nothing more than an insert. Forget about this 'rule' when writing, because it's not a rule, it's only a very rough average. Instead, think about your descriptions - concentrate on putting only what's necessary to the story in them and leave the rest to the director.

 

[Birdman]

Okay, thanks to all of you for your input. Here's the rub:

What I'm having difficulty with is that I can see my script fully resolved within in a 100 to 105 minute movie. ...Standard issue amount of movie time. It's a Sci-Fi Adventure with lots of visuals, explanations of complex machinery and detailed military involvement. Many of the things happening don't usually happen on planet Earth, so more info is needed to convey what's going on. It's not like two criminals discussing meth on a street corner which people can easily relate to and would involve far less visual information. I may need 130 pages of script to properly pull off what is intended to be seen within a 105 minute timeframe.

Problem is that when I finally submit my script to an agent, they might say, "Crap this sucker is heavy!" and pop it into the trash can thinking it's over two hours long.

Now, I fully see what you are all saying, but in reality, are the key people in this industry going to be so kind and understanding regarding my script length as you all are?

-Birdman

 

[IndiePaul]

The 1 page = 1 minute is a rule of thumb for judging how a given screenplay will translate into screen time. It's NOT a rule you're supposed to use when writing.

Agreed.

I have never heard of anyone trying to write one page of a screenplay per minute. The quality would go out the window. Most screenwriters take at least a month to write the first draft of a screenplay, then typically spend quite a few weeks (frequently months) re-writing.

There are exceptions as always. I know a screenwriter or two who lock themselves away (phones off etc) for 7-10 days and emerge, drained and exhausted but with a new screenplay.

Writing well typically takes time, passion, commitment and a lot of work.

.

 

[Birdman]

Okay, Indie, ...I fully agree about the hard work and dedication needed to produce a top quality script. Lets say I lock myself in a room for seven days straight with my 130 page Sci-Fi script for a coffee-fueled rewriting binge. I finally emerge like Moses from Mt. Sinai with rippling white hair, glowing countenance and a new, monumental script proudly resting against my chest that is now only 118 pages long. Yes! ...I've miraculously stripped a full 18 pages of script from my 130 page masterpiece.

Isn't the first agent I send it to STILL going to say, "Crap! This is a two our butt-nummer!" and toss it into the garbage can?

Are you all properly dealing with reality? ...or wishful thinking?

-Birdman

 

[ahennessey]

I will say that the 1 page per minute screen time is fairly accurate when you are talking about dialog. In fact, it is almost on the nose.

If your film is, say, an interpersonal drama in which characters talk quite a bit, you might find that the page count is within 5-15 pages of the run time. However, if your screenplay contains many silent sequences, or a lot of action, you may find your run time exceeding your page count.

However, you can write action sequences towards getting running time by page count.

For instance, you may have a sequence where JACK is waiting outside his wifes office building after he has called her from his phone and she has said she has to work late. He sees her leave the building and follows her for a block until she meets another man.

You could write it this way:

Jack waits outside the building. Diane exits the building and Jack follows for a minute down the street, trying not to be seen. Occasionally needing to duck behind things.

Diane reaches a corner and Jack dives into a doorway as she turns around quickly. In the doorway is an old woman with a dog, the dog barks until finally they get into the building.

Jack peeks out from the doorway just as Diane embraces another man.

Or you could write it this way:

Jack waits outside Diane's building. Glancing at his watch - this was a stupid idea.

Or was it? He slides behind the newstand a bit, peeking out to look across the street.

Diane is emerging from glass doors of the building and down the steps to the street. She pauses for second and buttons her coat as she looks across the street at the newstand.

Jack pulls his head back hiding behind the newstand. Did she see him? Oh my, God, did she see him?

Poking his head out, ever so slowly, he looks across the street.

She's gone.

Scanning the busy city sidewalks in a panic. People everywhere. He finally spots her, walking up the block.


A bicyclist squeaks to an abrupt halt, narrowly avoiding Jack, who has stepped out into the busy street to follow her.

BICYCLIST
Jerkoff

JACK
Sorry! Sorry!

He hustles across the street and falls into the crowd, walking only a little ways behind her.

She reaches an intersection and stops, her back to him. Jack stops as well, about 40 feet behind her. He starts to sidle over to a doorway that might provide some cover if she turns his way.

She does! Jack all but dives into the doorway. Where an old lady is now trying to get into the building with her little dog. The dog starts barking. That sharp annoying little bark that only little dogs can produce.

Jack is doing everything to quiet the dog. Vainly putting his finger to his lips in the SHHHH signal.

Finally, the old lady goes into the house.

Jack peers out from behind the protection of the doorway. Again, Diane hasn't spotted him. She is still at the corner and she is smiling.

Jack smiles too.

She is so beautiful, that smile getting bigger, and bigger as she embraces and kisses a handsome man in a business suit.

Writing it the second way is still not perfect, but it is going to get you a little closer to what the scene will actually run.

 

[rayw]

FYI, it's a generally understood situation that talkie films with lotsa dialog are gonna burn up pages more than description rich visual films.

Everyone that reads spec scripts (and you're obviously writing a spec script, not a film you plan on directing and producing yourself) for production knows this, so chill. You're good.

So... now you gotta do a little home work on your own genré.
What is it?
Rom com?
(Deadly) drama?
Self naveling mid-life crisis man-child hyperbole?
Or is it a scifi action adventure with all the space craft planned out to the last nut and lazer bolt, and skies of chromebots soaring over post human biorganic cities?
What?

Call it for what it is and go find other relatively current screenplays like it. Stuff three or so years old. No ten, fifteen, twenty year old sh!t.
Contemporary screenplays: http://www.imsdb.com/


Now, before you go hog wild with your "I may need 130 pages of script to properly pull off what is intended" have you considered only the perfect producer, ie. IF YOU WERE PAYING FOR ALL THIS SHIT how it would look?
Or are you writing for any one of twenty different producers of varying budgets and technical resources to execute 'Cosmos Within An Androids's Navel'?
How Spielberg or Bay are going to produce this is different than how del Toro or Blomkamp are going to, or how Caruth or Edwards are going to do it.
I don't think we wanna see what the guys at The Asylum or Troma Entertainment would do with it.

Just HOW MUCH DETAIL of your original spec story do you think is going to be retained after a page one rewrite, a ghost writer doctors it up, the producer's budget and resource changes, how the director's gonna shoot each scene three to thirty times, the actors are going to bugger with every GD line of dialog and action, then the editor is going to take the best take and munky-engineer a fat cut which is gonna be cut according to pacing and time - NOT TO STORY - then the MPAA is gonna futz with it and the distributor is gonna futz with it further.

HOW MUCH DETAIL is crucial to communicate the core story, or the story your want to see if you had the money, but you don't, so... ?

A spec screenplay is a Christmas tree you're selling on a lot: You don't get to pick and choose how it gets decorated if you sell it. You're selling trees. People are buying trees.


Also, you might wanna listen to a few dozen director/producer/actor/writer commentaries on DVDs or Blurays.
You'll learn how much changes from script to screen.
It's educational.

 

[IndiePaul]

Okay, Indie, ...I fully agree about the hard work and dedication needed to produce a top quality script. Lets say I lock myself in a room for seven days straight with my 130 page Sci-Fi script for a coffee-fueled rewriting binge. I finally emerge like Moses from Mt. Sinai with rippling white hair, glowing countenance and a new, monumental script proudly resting against my chest that is now only 118 pages long. Yes! ...I've miraculously stripped a full 18 pages of script from my 130 page masterpiece.

Isn't the first agent I send it to STILL going to say, "Crap! This is a two our butt-nummer!" and toss it into the garbage can?

Are you all properly dealing with reality? ...or wishful thinking?

-Birdman

You lost me there...

If your technique or writing is poor then yeah of course an agent will hate your script.

And Sci-Fi scripts are an incredibly tough sell for a newbie writer due to the production and post-production costs associated with such scripts. 40 to 60+ million is a hell of a lot to risk on a writer with no production credits. Hence most Sci-Fi work goes to highly experienced pro writers with solid big-budget production history.

But if an agent really likes how you write, they could take you on. So a great Sci-Fi script may not land you a sale, but could land you an agent.

Of course a great thriller could land you a sale and an agent.
.

 

[ahennessey]

I'll add this to the discussion, too.

Some indie filmmakers might say, "well, I'm not trying to sell a script to Hollywood, I'm making the film."

Remember, even if you are making your own film from your own script, you need the screenplay to be written well because you are going to be giving it to actors you want to be in your film, to people you might want to be producers on your film, to tech people you want to be involved in your film.

You want it to read well, you want people to see the movie you are trying to make. The first experience these people are going to have with your script is reading it. You can't project the movie in your mind for them.

 

[Birdman]

ahennessey,

I'm gravitating more towards the second of your two well orchestrated examples (thank you!). I'm probably somewhere in between the two. You have kind, soothing words that prompt me to keep plugging away with my script's color commentary. I WANT to believe your way will pan out ...but you and "rayw" represent opposite ends of the spec script spectrum. He's saying that my script is probably going to end up as a page one rewrite anyway and that all of my over-the-top Shakespearean efforts at communicating what's going on in my script will be ultimately re-written by some cold blooded producer's in-house literary goon squad. He feels they are going to decorate my "tree" however they see fit.

Is the "reality" of script writing that even if WE DO come up with the next huge blockbuster hit movie that we still get lost in the smoke of the Hollywood machine? ....with no name appearing in the credits?

Both of you - here's an example of how I'm writing character descriptions:

=========================================

INT. BRADLEY OBSERVATORY - NIGHT

DOCTOR REINHARDT hovers over a light box critiquing large space nebulae transparencies. He’s a stout elderly man sporting antique specs, white Einstein hair and matching mustache. He darns a white lab coat, fully-loaded pocket protector and reeks of multiple PhD’s, Two aspiring interns quickly enter the room.

============================================

Now, I could easily make the description shorter. I could even just leave out a description all together ...but what fun would that be? It's not really that many words being used to convey an image ....but if you do enough of this in your script you end up with 130 pages of witty prose.

It's a Catch-22! Leave out the detail and a bunch of re-write goons swoop in and destroy your creation with a page one rewrite of how "they" think it should be. Put in all the detail and Mr. movie agent man tosses it in the can because it would take up too much of his valuable frickin' day to read it.

-Birdman

 

[Birdman]

You lost me there...

If your technique or writing is poor then yeah of course an agent will hate your script.

And Sci-Fi scripts are an incredibly tough sell for a newbie writer due to the production and post-production costs associated with such scripts. 40 to 60+ million is a hell of a lot to risk on a writer with no production credits. Hence most Sci-Fi work goes to highly experienced pro writers with solid big-budget production history.

But if an agent really likes how you write, they could take you on. So a great Sci-Fi script may not land you a sale, but could land you an agent.

Of course a great thriller could land you a sale and an agent.
.

Let's use the art world as an example. If I paint a true "masterpiece", ...something that a skilled gallery owner would quickly realize is something unique and valuable, the gallery owner doesn't say, "Sure, this is truly a masterpiece, ...but I've never heard of this guy so screw it". In other words, the artwork speaks for itself.

If I write a hard-hitting movie script that a skilled producer would quickly recognize as a potential blockbuster hit, does he say, "Man, this movie would probably blow E.T away! ...but I don't know this asshole so in the trash it goes" ....or does he see the potential regardless of the author's name attached to the script?


Doesn't the script speak for itself regarding whether or not it should be made into a movie?

-Birdman

P.S. You ARE kind of saying that it's possible that a well-written script will survive the process ...but aren't you also saying that even if it is accepted that it will be re-written so many times that the original script idea is smoke? Does the gallery owner who really loves my painting have other artists come in and totally re-paint my masterpiece? ...Why do so if it works the way that it already is?

 

[IndiePaul]

Now, I could easily make the description shorter. I could even just leave out a description all together ...but what fun would that be? It's not really that many words being used to convey an image ....but if you do enough of this in your script you end up with 130 pages of witty prose.

It's a Catch-22! Leave out the detail and a bunch of re-write goons swoop in and destroy your creation with a page one rewrite. Put in all the detail and Mr. movie agent man tosses it in the can because it would take up too much of his valuable frickin' day to read it.

It's the story and dialogue that sells a script, not the detail in the descriptions. The pros know this. That's why they write tightly.

If you love detail and verbose descriptions then write a novel.

Some pro screenwriters do have a somewhat verbose style (not novel writing verbose though) - Michael Mann (Heat is 157 pages), John Gatins (Flight is 150 pages) et al. They are exceptions to the rule though and since they're well established with hundreds of millions of box office revenues behind them, they can pretty much write however they want.

Newbies don't have that luxury. If you want to sell your screenplay, write tightly.

Or write a novel instead.

.

 

[IndiePaul]

Let's use the art world as an example. If I paint a true "masterpiece", ...something that a skilled gallery owner would quickly realize is something unique and valuable, the gallery owner doesn't say, "Sure, this is truly a masterpiece, ...but I've never heard of this guy so screw it". In other words, the artwork speaks for itself.

If I write a hard-hitting movie script that a skilled producer would quickly recognize as a potential blockbuster hit, does he say, "Man, this movie would probably blow E.T away! ...but I don't know this asshole so in the trash it goes" ....or does he see the potential regardless of the author's name attached to the script?


Doesn't the script speak for itself regarding whether or not it should be made into a movie?

If you've written a masterpiece, if you get it into the right hands, it could get you noticed and sell - despite being Sci-Fi. But it would literally need to be worthy of the $$$ - and for Sci-Fi you're talking huge sums... 40-60 million is a lot to risk (and that's just the production budget, add 50%+ more for marketing etc). Would it be able to recoup that sum and make a substantial profit on top?

That's the reality. Is your script that good?

My experience is many newbie writers think their first screenplay rocks (I did too). The reality is often that they are just average, and compared to the pros - they're very sub-par.

But with experience and proper technique, our screenwriting can get exponentially better.

I'm out of this thread. Filming to do...
.

 

[Birdman]

If you've written a masterpiece, if you get it into the right hands, it could get you noticed and sell - despite being Sci-Fi. But it would literally need to be worthy of the $$$ - and for Sci-Fi you're talking huge sums... 40-60 million is a lot to risk (and that's just the production budget, add 50%+ more for marketing etc). Would it be able to recoup that sum and make a substantial profit on top?

That's the reality. Is your script that good?

.

Interesting link on "Character Introductions"

The link stresses the importance of adding character descriptions to help add imagery to your script. Do we "non-heroes" of the script world NOT do this because we aren't famous? We haven't earned the right to describe our characters? Do we keep it short and generic just to get a foot in the door at the risk of all the pent-up imagination we have inside us?


Your last line pretty much sums up the whole meaning behind writing a spec script. Is mine really that good? Hell, I don't know? I really, REALLY love it! I'm "in love" with it. I can't get it out of my mind and I'm consumed by it. My wife has become jealous of my computer. I feel inside that if what I see in my head was up on a screen it would be a major Sci-Fi hit. Do many others probably feel the exact same way about their scripts? ...probably so. But if we write them in a cold, sterile way figuring the odds are stacked against us in the first place, ...isn't it technically dooming our scripts at page one as a result?

Do we jump ship and run over to the land of novels?

If we don't feel our script is worth being made into a multi-million-dollar blockbuster hit ....then why bother? Who the hell wants to waste their time writing a feature film spec script for a $200 budget? If I write a rock song, I want Bono wishing he had written it. If I create a new painting I want Picasso wishing he weren't dead so he could steal the idea. if your plans aren't for making it happen in a major way ....why waste your time?

-Birdman

 

[ahennessey]

Hi Birdman,

Remember, in my example, I'm specifically talking about an action sequence. My second example of how to write the scene brings the reader on the journey of the action. The sentences are short, they are not elaborate, and they don't have belabored description in them. For instance, I don't describe the detailed architecture of Diane's building or go into detail about the bicyclist or the newstand.

The second example is not perfect, I wrote just as I was typing it, so it would obviously need refinement.

However, in the second example I have written, you can SEE the movie and you get a feel for what is going on in the scene. Jack is more of a living breathing character.

Now, you may, in the first draft, write the first example. However, I would suggest, when doing rewrites that you should flag things that read like the first example and think about them. If it is an important scene, (Jack gets confirmation that his wife is seeing another man,) write it like it is an important scene. Bring the reader on the journey that the character is going through.

Another example" If your script is an action movie, and there is a climactic fight. Write the fight beat for beat, not camera angle by camera angle, but rather blow by blow concisely, relating the ebb and flow of the fight.

When they were filming the original Rocky, the thought was they would improvise the fight scene, but as they were doing rehearsals, Stallone and the director decided that it would be way better to have it planned. Stallone went home and wrote the fight out ,screenplay-style, punch for punch.

BTW. That example of character description you gave is not so bad. It isn't too long, gives us sense of this guy and what he is doing, and then the interns enter and the scene is off and running.

 

[JoshL]

Let's use the art world as an example. If I paint a true "masterpiece", ...something that a skilled gallery owner would quickly realize is something unique and valuable, the gallery owner doesn't say, "Sure, this is truly a masterpiece, ...but I've never heard of this guy so screw it". In other words, the artwork speaks for itself.

Actually, that's more or less what happens. The art world in all aspects (including music and film) is not a meritocracy, and that's why especially in visual arts, most artist die broke and unknown, their paintings only worth something after their death. A skilled gallery owner is trying to make a living like the rest of us, and a painting by an unknown artist no matter HOW good, isn't going to sell for much. But if you put together a full show, a smaller gallery will sell your stuff on consignment (which is how it works). You do that over and over and over until your name starts to be a thing, and THEN you get invited to bigger shows, bigger galleries, etc.

I'm not saying this to be discouraging; in fact, the opposite. If you knock it out of the park on your first try, but you don't sell a single copy, that doesn't mean you failed. It's a step on a long road, and if you keep your expectations realistic, you can make it.