On the degredation of independent film score composers.

[harpsichoid]

There must be a better way to do this.

These positions are so competitive that a filmmaker can be presented with a whole crowd of composers just by saying 'I am making a film', without them knowing anything about the project, the quality of the work, or the reliability of the person in charge.

On top of that, due to how much people want the opportunity, some of them offer their work for free, which means that everyone is forced to work for nothing to still be a part of the competition.

I'm not claiming to be above this, I'm in there with everyone else, working as hard as I can to get involved as well. It's tiring and it's frustrating, and it seems to go nowhere. It forces me to get angry at fellow musicians who are in exactly the same position as me.

Not long ago I joined a film project I saw on this forum and wrote a new piece of music as a demo, based on details I was given about the film. They joined kickstarter and made over $500 for the project, and I naturally asked if I could maybe be given a raise from nothing to a small amount (I'm a student, a tenner is food for a few days) and was subsequently cut off without any reply.

So from the perspective of a composer, there are a few points that I think filmmakers should keep in mind regarding music.

~ Royalty free music is hardly your first option. Real soundtracks come from giving full attention to the marriage of film and sound, not taking a pre-composed track and trying to mould it to what you've created- it's like forcing a jigsaw piece into the wrong hole, and it will usually be noticeable. There are plenty of composers on this forum alone that are looking for work and will do a very good job of it.
~ Don't automatically go for the composer with the fattest portfolio of previous credits and awards. Some people lie about what they've done, some people have a huge list of previous work that's just full of rubbish, and of course- some of the best talent is still unnoticed.
~ Is the composer actually going to compose music for the film, or are they going to just pick out tracks they have written in the past and use them in the same way as my first point?
~ It helps so much if you already have ideas about what you want. If there are particular influences or orchestrations that you are looking for, it makes the composer's job easier if they have something to work from.
~ If you give short deadlines, don't be suprised if you are given music of a lower standard- musicians don't like working under pressure.
~ The composer is one role in a film project that can be remote and contactable only through the internet or phone, and if this is the case- keep in contact.
~ If you don't have money then there's nothing wrong with having someone work for free. But if there's surplus budget or investment and you are already paying some of your crew then don't forget the composer, even if it's only a negligable amount. Things like musical equipment and instruments have to be saved up for, and the price of photocopying and postage add up too.

​

 

[Tinalera]

There must be a better way to do this.

These positions are so competitive that a filmmaker can be presented with a whole crowd of composers just by saying 'I am making a film', without them knowing anything about the project, the quality of the work, or the reliability of the person in charge.

On top of that, due to how much people want the opportunity, some of them offer their work for free, which means that everyone is forced to work for nothing to still be a part of the competition.

I'm not claiming to be above this, I'm in there with everyone else, working as hard as I can to get involved as well. It's tiring and it's frustrating, and it seems to go nowhere. It forces me to get angry at fellow musicians who are in exactly the same position as me.

Not long ago I joined a film project I saw on this forum and wrote a new piece of music as a demo, based on details I was given about the film. They joined kickstarter and made over $500 for the project, and I naturally asked if I could maybe be given a raise from nothing to a small amount (I'm a student, a tenner is food for a few days) and was subsequently cut off without any reply.

So from the perspective of a composer, there are a few points that I think filmmakers should keep in mind regarding music.

~ Royalty free music is hardly your first option. Real soundtracks come from giving full attention to the marriage of film and sound, not taking a pre-composed track and trying to mould it to what you've created- it's like forcing a jigsaw piece into the wrong hole, and it will usually be noticeable. There are plenty of composers on this forum alone that are looking for work and will do a very good job of it.
~ Don't automatically go for the composer with the fattest portfolio of previous credits and awards. Some people lie about what they've done, some people have a huge list of previous work that's just full of rubbish, and of course- some of the best talent is still unnoticed.
~ Is the composer actually going to compose music for the film, or are they going to just pick out tracks they have written in the past and use them in the same way as my first point?
~ It helps so much if you already have ideas about what you want. If there are particular influences or orchestrations that you are looking for, it makes the composer's job easier if they have something to work from.
~ If you give short deadlines, don't be suprised if you are given music of a lower standard- musicians don't like working under pressure.
~ The composer is one role in a film project that can be remote and contactable only through the internet or phone, and if this is the case- keep in contact.
~ If you don't have money then there's nothing wrong with having someone work for free. But if there's surplus budget or investment and you are already paying some of your crew then don't forget the composer, even if it's only a negligable amount. Things like musical equipment and instruments have to be saved up for, and the price of photocopying and postage add up too.

​

For myself, I am waiting for my friend to compose (from scratch) music for me film short. She's doing it for free, so I don't push her hard on it-but I know she has a background in music and has composed other music, so I know I'll get a good product. What I did is I shot my video only footage (if you're interested it's in the screening room "FULL VERSION Showing Face"-yea cheap plug ) and I'm letting her watch it and work directly from the source material.

Just my own experiences thus far (it's also the first time I've put a music soundtrack in my film, so it's exciting for me as well)

 

[Papertwinproductions]

The same could be said for just about any position in the industry. It's a test of mettle. Can you really go the distance in the current climate?

If I'm being paid, then my cast/crew will be paid. That's how I run things. But folk have different methods, and the majority will happily take a free composition without a second thought of a return favour, or a promise of future work.

It's about making the connection with as many creatives as possible. Giving yourself the best opportunity, and gradually, if you do the leg work, and have a little luck, you'll find your way into a paying job/valued position in the film industry. Or atleast among those willing to pay.

Or, the alternative, whilst you network/work for free/meet artists, is you discover different avenues.

What else could you compose for?

TV Commercials?
Radiomercials?
Local business?
Web videos?
Youtube icons?

It's not always about doing what you want, but what you do beside it to make your ideal happen.

 

[SinEater]

They joined kickstarter and made over $500 for the project, and I naturally asked if I could maybe be given a raise from nothing to a small amount (I'm a student, a tenner is food for a few days) and was subsequently cut off without any reply.

You act as though $500 would cover the cost of the project. That would have covered craft services and maybe props on my last short. While I understand your desire to get paid, it's not as though anyone makes money on these no-budget projects (and yes, I consider $500 a no-budget project). Sure, instruments cost money. So do cameras, lenses, lights, microphones, recorders, ect. Many of the other people working for free on the project are likely contributing their own equipment as well.

I'm not trying to be an asshole, I'm just trying to give you some perspective. While cutting you off without a reply reeks of amateurism, I'm not surprised they decided to go a different route. As you said yourself, you're a student. It's unlikely you had anything to offer that differentiated you from the scores of others out there who will work for free. It's a very competitive industry, and starting out it's highly unlikely you'll get a lot of paying gigs. If you want to get paid, you need to get work on projects with actual budgets. To do that, you need a proven track record of providing quality work. So suck it up, work on a bunch of shorts without pay, and then eventually you'll be in a position to start actually make some cash. Either that, or you'll end up working a real job like the majority of people on this forum.

 

[Michael Allen]

There must be a better way to do this.

These positions are so competitive that a filmmaker can be presented with a whole crowd of composers just by saying 'I am making a film', without them knowing anything about the project, the quality of the work, or the reliability of the person in charge.

On top of that, due to how much people want the opportunity, some of them offer their work for free, which means that everyone is forced to work for nothing to still be a part of the competition.

I'm not claiming to be above this, I'm in there with everyone else, working as hard as I can to get involved as well. It's tiring and it's frustrating, and it seems to go nowhere. It forces me to get angry at fellow musicians who are in exactly the same position as me.

Not long ago I joined a film project I saw on this forum and wrote a new piece of music as a demo, based on details I was given about the film. They joined kickstarter and made over $500 for the project, and I naturally asked if I could maybe be given a raise from nothing to a small amount (I'm a student, a tenner is food for a few days) and was subsequently cut off without any reply.

So from the perspective of a composer, there are a few points that I think filmmakers should keep in mind regarding music.

~ Royalty free music is hardly your first option. Real soundtracks come from giving full attention to the marriage of film and sound, not taking a pre-composed track and trying to mould it to what you've created- it's like forcing a jigsaw piece into the wrong hole, and it will usually be noticeable. There are plenty of composers on this forum alone that are looking for work and will do a very good job of it.
~ Don't automatically go for the composer with the fattest portfolio of previous credits and awards. Some people lie about what they've done, some people have a huge list of previous work that's just full of rubbish, and of course- some of the best talent is still unnoticed.
~ Is the composer actually going to compose music for the film, or are they going to just pick out tracks they have written in the past and use them in the same way as my first point?
~ It helps so much if you already have ideas about what you want. If there are particular influences or orchestrations that you are looking for, it makes the composer's job easier if they have something to work from.
~ If you give short deadlines, don't be suprised if you are given music of a lower standard- musicians don't like working under pressure.
~ The composer is one role in a film project that can be remote and contactable only through the internet or phone, and if this is the case- keep in contact.
~ If you don't have money then there's nothing wrong with having someone work for free. But if there's surplus budget or investment and you are already paying some of your crew then don't forget the composer, even if it's only a negligable amount. Things like musical equipment and instruments have to be saved up for, and the price of photocopying and postage add up too.

​

Sounds like you need a hug Harpsichoid.

I think you may have reached a hurdle, one of many. Perhaps you have reached the stage in your head where you don't work for free anymore. It happens to everyone at some point. You are trying to break into an increadibly difficult industry riddled with want-to-be composers who have bought a computer and some instument libraries and think they are film composers. Those who can and those that cannot do get sorted out. Directors do know the difference.

You are wrong to say musicians don't like to work under pressure. If you don't like working under pressure perhaps this isn't the job for you because it's a huge part of being a film composer. You need to be able to produce great music with the clock ticking.

There will always be composers out there who will work for free and when you are starting out and forming relationships it's just what you need to do. But if you are good to work with and do great film scoring then you will form relationships and grow with directors until you are both making money doing the thing you love. And lets face it that's probably why you decided to do this in the first place.

If you feel you have a good enough body of work then it could be time to stop doing freebees but if you want to form relationships with new directors then chances are they will have very little to no budget.
I don't think good directors undervalue the composer at all and it's been my experience that as soon as they start getting a decent budget then so will you.

Hang in there Harpsichoid.

 

[harpsichoid]

Sounds like you need a hug Harpsichoid.

I think you may have reached a hurdle, one of many. Perhaps you have reached the stage in your head where you don't work for free anymore. It happens to everyone at some point. You are trying to break into an increadibly difficult industry riddled with want-to-be composers who have bought a computer and some instument libraries and think they are film composers. Those who can and those that cannot do get sorted out. Directors do know the difference.

You are wrong to say musicians don't like to work under pressure. If you don't like working under pressure perhaps this isn't the job for you because it's a huge part of being a film composer. You need to be able to produce great music with the clock ticking.

There will always be composers out there who will work for free and when you are starting out and forming relationships it's just what you need to do. But if you are good to work with and do great film scoring then you will form relationships and grow with directors until you are both making money doing the thing you love. And lets face it that's probably why you decided to do this in the first place.

If you feel you have a good enough body of work then it could be time to stop doing freebees but if you want to form relationships with new directors then chances are they will have very little to no budget.
I don't think good directors undervalue the composer at all and it's been my experience that as soon as they start getting a decent budget then so will you.

Hang in there Harpsichoid.

Thanks. I have several good projects behind me now and I realise I'm going to have to work really hard.

And by deadlines I mean stupid deadlines- two of the films I did recently were for people at my university, and they left their own work so close to the submission deadlines that it only gave me a night to do a lot of the music. Or is that something I'm going to have to get used to?

 

[JoshL]

Man, I hear you there. There are some directors that I am hesitant to work with again, unless there is money upfront. There are others I work with that I would GLADLY work for free. The latter are those who treat me well and with respect. If there is some money, they always give me a cut. If there isn't, they buy me a beer or something. I realize, as a musician, I have a huge ego, but music in film is IMPORTANT. Treat me well, I'll treat you well.

I recently did a full-length film. The guy editing it acted in a short I had scored, and liked my music, so gave me a call. I asked if there was any money involved (a fair question; a feature film is a LOT more work than a short). He replied "I thought you could just do it for free, like you did for Jason's film". I ended up doing it for other reasons (and above and beyond what the film needed or deserved, but I don't believe in phoning it in), but I found that really presumptuous and disrespectful.

As a related note/rant, gearing up for 48 hour again this year. Last year in Pittsburgh I was one of three or four people actually doing music in the weekend. Most people were using creative commons library material. I don't do it for the "competition" end of the project, but if I did, I would totally feel ripped off (doubly so since last year they didn't even give out a music award); competing with music that has been worked on for months. In, you know, two days. I recognize that there aren't a ton of composers who want to do a project like that, but given all the people looking to do music in film, you'd think more would try.

Anyway, keep at it, Harpsichord. You'll meet good people and people with money. Sometimes it's the same person, but don't be too surprised at bad work environments, last minute calls and directors/producers who just don't get it. Your stuff on Nick's film was really good, and feel free to rant any time. We get where you're coming from!

Addendum:

~ If you give short deadlines, don't be suprised if you are given music of a lower standard- musicians don't like working under pressure.

Good addage I heard not too long ago. You can have (music/film/etc) something done Cheap, Fast or Well. Pick two.

 

[Papertwinproductions]

And by deadlines I mean stupid deadlines- two of the films I did recently were for people at my university, and they left their own work so close to the submission deadlines that it only gave me a night to do a lot of the music. Or is that something I'm going to have to get used to?

It depends on who you work with, and how they work. Even the most experienced will occasionally just make their deadlines.

There are too many defining factors within a production, something could change, somebody could drop out etc. Whatever the case, it's perfectly fine to be angry.

It's a stressful industry, but it's a fun one. How many people can say they are doing what they love, and making/trying to make a living out of it?

I think you've hit a crossroads. I know you're a talented composer, I've heard your material recently on Nicks project, and if I'm not mistaken, I listened to some upon your arrival. (Mainly because you were from Liverpool, too. Our "Film community" isn't thriving at the minute. It's good to know that we're still kicking back.)

Nobody jumps into their ideal job. Collaboration is of the utmost importance. Never have there been such opportunities to connect with fellow film-makers. You've just got to do the leg work, and network. It's very likely you'll work for free for a while, perhaps there will be small pay here and there, but that's exactly what it takes.

I think the arguement that film-makers are naive to the quality of Composers isn't necessarily correct. Most new film-makers are exactly that. They're new. I'm quitely confident alot of people would be fooled by authentic composition compared to the somewhat "polishing" most fly-by-night Composers present us with.

Whose at fault?

The inexperienced film-maker who, alike many, look upon "Collaboration" as you work for me for buttons and lint, and I'll never see you again?

That's the wrong attitude to collaboration. One that will see that film-maker short in years to come.

Don't believe that every collaboration leads do a dead-end. It doesn't.

Glass half full. Network in the right places, where/who are the people likely to get you work? What could that work lead to?

Be willing to work for free. Not everyone will pay. But try to be a good judge of character, and make sure it's a two-way deal.

Keep in touch.

It's the one thing that voids most collaborations. Document who you've worked with, you never know when you can help eachother out in the future.

Chin up.

 

[directorik]

There must be a better way to do this.

These positions are so competitive that a filmmaker can be presented with a whole crowd of composers just by saying 'I am making a film', without them knowing anything about the project, the quality of the work, or the reliability of the person in charge.

On top of that, due to how much people want the opportunity, some of them offer their work for free, which means that everyone is forced to work for nothing to still be a part of the competition.

Change the word "composers" to "director of photography", "actor",
"editor", "PA" and "screenwriter".

I hear ya, harpsichoid. It's tough out there. Making a living as a "fill
in the blank" is damn hard. I put out a notice for unpaid work, I get
200 resumes. I put out a notice for very, very low pay and I get 2,000,
without them knowing anything about the project or me.

 

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

Change the word "composers" to "director of photography", "actor",
"editor", "PA" and "screenwriter".

I hear ya, harpsichoid. It's tough out there. Making a living as a "fill
in the blank" is damn hard. I put out a notice for unpaid work, I get
200 resumes. I put out a notice for very, very low pay and I get 2,000,
without them knowing anything about the project or me.

Yep. That's why I usually pay a token amount to all but PAs. You'd be amazed what $50 buys you vs $0 a day.

 

[Michael Allen]

And by deadlines I mean stupid deadlines- two of the films I did recently were for people at my university, and they left their own work so close to the submission deadlines that it only gave me a night to do a lot of the music. Or is that something I'm going to have to get used to?

Well it wont be the case in every film but it's certainly something you'll need to be able to deal with because it happens all the time.
If you think you've had it bad check this out. Of course this is an extreme example but I think you enjoy it. James Horner talking about his experience scoring Aliens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzati0Am5GE

 

[Utopia]

lol Gonzo your PAs are worth at LEAST $5.

 

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

lol Gonzo your PAs are worth at LEAST $5.

Haha!
Some are worth a lot more, but on PAs you can use the shotgun approach. You hire 6 and hope 2 are worth a shit. A DP or sound guy not so much.

 

[mooquu]

man, I really resonate with what you're saying.

I'm a film scoring major at the Berklee College of Music, so I'm surrounded by thousands of musicians and artists every day, and the story is the same;

there's just no work, and everyone is terrified.

They're even more up sh** creek, to the tune of about $150,000. You really start wishing you had gone to school for accounting or something lol

But I still say, do what you love. It's hard to stay passionate in the face of such great adversity, but the whole point is to try. The plastic-ness of hollywood can get overwhelming even if you aren't there, but would you REALLY rather be wasting your life doing something you'd regret?

Surround yourself with creative people. Notice I didn't say film makers, or composers, because that doesn't automatically make you creative. surround yourself with the people who care about what you do. In the 1960/70s, music was going much of the way it is today, to pop and jazz scores. Film makers were searching for the best medium to support their films, and it really seemed to be the pop way. Then star wars happened, and John Williams turned everything upside-down. Suddenly everyone wanted an orchestral score! Hollywood is filled with followers, but unfortunately not many leaders. It's even true today, now everyone wants their score to sound just like "the facebook movie".

what would you do if tomorrow film scores became cliche, and directors preferred silence? It does happen. Stanley Kubrick didn't have a very high opinion of composers, and went as far as to say so outright. He used a lot of pop music.

My point; yes we have to pay bills. we have to survive. but be smart, if nobody wants to pay you for music, you need a real job. But you STILL want to write music for film, so keep doing it. Do it AS MUCH AS YOU CAN. Your quality will show through and you will get work.

Graham Bell had to actually make the telephone before anyone would back/support him and his research. Edison had to make the lightbulb first as well. Just the way of the world my friend. Trust me, I feel your pain. Keep at it though, and do your best. Don't limit yourself either, if a musical opportunity comes up, take advantage of it. We don't always know what we like before we try it!

 

[2001 Productions]

Stanley Kubrick didn't have a very high opinion of composers, and went as far as to say so outright. He used a lot of pop music.

As a die-hard Kubrick worshiper (note my company name ) I feel the need to clarify this statement a bit.

It wasn't that he didn't have a high opinion of composers, per se, but rather he felt that there was so much brilliant music that had already been composed it seemed pointless to hire someone to compose new music, which - while possibly similar - would most likely be inferior.

Of course, he was Stanley Kubrick, so he could basically pick any music he wanted and obtain the rights to use it. There haven't been too many filmmakers in the history of the craft who've enjoyed that privilege.

The use of "Singin' in the Rain" in A Clockwork Orange, for example, was just a spur-of-the-moment idea Malcolm McDowell had on the day of the shoot. Kubrick picked up the phone and had the rights within the hour, even though it was used to accompany one of the most heinously violent murder scenes in cinematic history.

 

[Luigi]

Hi Harpsichoid,

I've just now read your post.
Did you already try with Audiosparx?
I've 50 tracks and packages there, and I'm really satisfied for various reasons: good placements, great support. In my opinion one of the best publishers in the world.
Read the "Artist testimonials" page. They are sincere, believe me.
Obviously I won't buy a Ferrari thanks to Audiosparx, but at least some pizzas and beers yes.

Read also the "Recent licensing deals" page and the see where they place music. Also productions like NCIS, CSI, Discovery Channel and others.

Have a nice day!

 

[Alcove Audio]

And by deadlines I mean stupid deadlines- two of the films I did recently were for people at my university, and they left their own work so close to the submission deadlines that it only gave me a night to do a lot of the music. Or is that something I'm going to have to get used to?

Yes and no. If you want to work as a commercial (by commercial I mean compose on demand) composer you will have to work very fast. Even at the Hollywood level you are going to have very hard, tough, fast deadlines. Four weeks to compose, orchestrate and record a score is not unusual. Sure, you may have a few prior additional weeks to work out themes and some scratch cues, but the bulk of the work will be done with a close-to-final cut of the film.

For almost two years I worked for a broadcast music firm. We did the music for news shows (several of our packages were used throughout the country), audio logos for networks (we did the Discovery Channel audio logo that was used in the mid-90's), theme songs for all kinds of TV shows, on-hold music and even musical blips and bloops for phones plus a lot of other weird things. I did liaison with the composers and the clients, scheduled sessions and - the fun part for me - worked as a line producer, which was also my first exposure to Pro Tools.

As an example of how things worked we would be called by a producer to submit theme song demos for a TV show. Between 10 am and noon (Monday) I called and/or faxed (the internet wasn't a big tool just yet) the 30+ composers in our stable, gave them the parameters and the deadline (10 am Wednesday). That gave most about 30 hours to compose, record and get it into FedEx. We would take the DAT tapes, weed it down to four or five tracks to submit to the client and burn a CD to get out for 10 am delivery on Thursday. There were times when I was driving to JFK or Newark to catch the last FedEx drop, just barely making the flight.

If you got the gig you had another week - sometimes less, sometimes more - to come up with the full broadcast quality performance/mix. You were given a Beta video tape of the show intro to work with.

I don't know what it's like now in the broadcast music biz, but I'm sure that it's even more frantic.

 

[rocksure]

Unfortunately the squeeze is on. Everyone wants something for nothing, and generally music is close to the bottom of the list to many of those making films or videos. For those of us who are trying to make a living from music it can be pretty frustrating..not to mention bank account crunching. In the end I guess we do it cos we have a passion for it. Sometimes Royalty-free music actually is a viable answer to those on a budget. For example http://rocksuresoundz.com

 

[Synia]

I think it really depend on the director and producer. For example, me, though only relatively new on the scene of directing, because i have been learning piano since 7, and also flute at 14, and most recently the drum. I've been trained to be extremely sensitive and picky about my music.

When i have no budget, i would spend half of the pre-production time just looking for the music i want. When i have an idea, i would, instead of writing script, just jot down a few notes and start looking for the sound that expresses what i want to express, and the music almost helps me consolidate my script.

And should i ever have ANY budget, i'd leap at the opportunity to work with a composer. And should i ever work with a composer i'd be willing to pay him/her more than i pay anyone else, and give them as much time as the deadline to the film itself allows to create to the best music to their ability, as i understand how important music is to a film. Take the scariest horror movie and the most epic action scene, then mute it, and instantly everything is lost. It's something so subtle that one doesn't realize it's there, when it's there. But the moment it's gone, the film just falls to pieces.

It literally make or break a film!!!

 

[Murdock]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fumj2SVsKbE