Need help buying first filmmaking camera

D

dgwow123

As this is my first post here I'd like to welcome myself to you guys!

I am a mechanical engineer fresh out of McGill University (Canada) who always loved film but never really made the effort to learn on my own. I've been wanting to pick up filmmaking as a hobby and would like to know what the best camera/lenses to start out with.

What I am looking for:

-The best image for the price (<$1000, not including lenses)
-The ability to create a "cinema" like image (not overly shadowed, shallow DOF, wide aperture)
-Good for all genres of filmmaking (action, romance, epic landscapes, etc)
-A good degree of future-proofing (I can use it to make some serious stuff eventually)

Some other things I am looking to clarify:

-I don't mind hacking the firmware if that helps. I read about Magic Lantern as well as shooting RAW, and how the image quality is much better, maybe you guys could clarify if it's really worth it, because the views were confusing. Some people were saying to shoot RAW for cameras with slower write speed like the t2i whereas some were saying it wasn't worth it for anything less than the canon 7D because of the lower max resolution. I would be interested in shooting RAW if the camera was good at it.

-Is image stabilization necessary for all camera lenses when taking video? I have read conflicting comments, some say you only need it when handheld shooting while others and that it messes up when you keep it on with the tripod, while others say it helps in both cases.

I don't mind choosing between a camcorder or DSLR, as long as they satisfy the criteria above.

I seem to be leaning towards the Canon t2i because of its value for money (apparently same sensor as 7D) which will let me buy some good lenses (looking at sigma 17-70mm f2.8-4, canon 50mm 1.4/1.8). The one problem with the t2i seems to be its low write speed (20mb/s). However, I want to make sure there aren't cameras out there with better picture without breaking the bank. Other cameras that also look interesting are of course the 7D and the Panasonic GH3, Blackmagic Pocket Cinema.

Thanks for sharing! :)
 
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Best bang for the buck is probably the Canon EOS-M with magic lantern. Since it's a discontinued camera model, it's going for pretty cheap, and that would leave you some cash to build out a basic light and/or audio kit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cHtl0nseEc


Your $1k limit for camera without lenses would allow for the Black Magic Pocket Cinema Camera to fit in the budget (just barely).

The biggest benefit of the BMPCC in my mind is that it's a micro 4/3 camera. Why is that a benefit? It has such a short flange distance from mount to sensor that you can get adapters for virtually any other type of lens mount, so as long as you're satisfied with the image it captures you can adapt it for use with any lenses you have, acquire, or rent. That's pretty good future proofing in my mind. It also doesn't try to do too much, which is good. A camera brain really just has one job to do, capture the image that hits its sensor... too many extra bells & whistles are not necessarily a good thing.
 
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You have good advice from the members above. My opinion...

dgwow123 said:
-A good degree of future-proofing (I can use it to make some serious stuff eventually)
Click to expand...
Given the rate of technological change that's not easy to get in a camera costing much much more than the $1k budget you have, let alone your $1k budget...

The BMPC is a great camera but a tough one for new film makers, due to the work in post (particularly color grading) required.

An article on the topic:

http://www.learningdslrvideo.com/black-magic-pocket-review/

And the video that goes with that article:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAgPaiLgeE4

The Panasonic GH3 is popular with some. Hacked G3s were used to film the feature film Upstream Color.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SilYsr_3vrA

Note, the camera is only part of the equation of good film making. Audio is critical too. Even more important than both these elements is: Story... Great talent and crew are other huge factors.
 
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Hi dgwow123 - and welcome to the world of digital filmmaking!

Before you buy a Canon DSLR, you might want to listen to the conclusions these long-time DSLR bloggers have reached after reviewing the latest mirrorless camera, the Panasonic GH4:

http://youtu.be/gxGekOHEPuc?t=40m45s

http://youtu.be/6ci6DYXbKrs?t=29m59s

I bought a T2i back in 2010, and quickly reached these same conclusions and got rid of it.

Things I didn't know before I bought my T2i, and wish someone had told me:

- the viewfinder goes blank when you switch from stills to video (blocked by the mirror, which is useless for video). This is true for all DSLRs

- autofocus stops working when you switch from stills to video (I know, "real" filmmakers don't use autofocus - but, coming from camcorders, I missed it)

- the camera stops and has to be restarted after 12 minutes of continuous video recording - very annoying when you're recording a wedding, a play or a speech.

It also lacks slow motion frame rates higher than 1080/30p and a quiet preamp for recording directly to the camera - forcing you to buy an external recorder or preamp for decent sound.

The 7D suffers from the same shortcomings.

Personally, I would avoid these cameras.

Of the cameras on your list, I would most seriously consider the $1074CDN GH3 and the $1250CDN BMPCC. I have both of these cameras and either of them will give you much better image quality than either of the Canons on your list.

Of the two, the GH3, however, is much much easier to use. It has batteries that will last you all day. It has a viewfinder that works while you're shooting video. It records at 1080/60p for smooth, usable slow motion.

The BMPCC has awesome 12-bit RAW image quality - but it has none of the GH3's usability features and can be a real challenge to shoot with.

The only real rap on the GH3 is its lack of focus peaking. Personally, in 2 years of shooting video, I have never had an out of focus shot with this camera (I use its lightning fast autofocus), but for some people, that's a problem.

If you really need focus peaking, and want to spend less than $1000CDN, you may want to consider the Panasonic G6. It is the best still/video camera below $1000 in my view, with focus peaking, 1080/60p, a built-in intervalometer for timelapse, plus all of the convenience of Panasonic GH cameras, to include a built-in electronic viewfinder and the ability to record hours of continuous video.

Here are a few examples of what this camera can do:

Doc: http://vimeo.com/97274302

Music Video: http://vimeo.com/88584840

Compared to the $3000 Canon 5D Mark III: http://vimeo.com/82318903

You can get the Panasonic G6 with the 14-42mm kit lens for $910.25CDN from Amazon Canada.

All of that said, if you can save a few more dollars, the GH3's big brother, the $1749CAD GH4, is so good that it inspired the bloggers in the videos above to sell their Canon DSLRs :)

Hope this is helpful!

Bill
 
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brunerww said:
Hi dgwow123 - and welcome to the world of digital filmmaking!

Before you buy a Canon DSLR, you might want to listen to the conclusions these long-time DSLR bloggers have reached after reviewing the latest mirrorless camera, the Panasonic GH4:

http://youtu.be/gxGekOHEPuc?t=40m45s

http://youtu.be/6ci6DYXbKrs?t=29m59s

I bought a T2i back in 2010, and quickly reached these same conclusions and got rid of it.

Things I didn't know before I bought my T2i, and wish someone had told me:

- the viewfinder goes blank when you switch from stills to video (blocked by the mirror, which is useless for video). This is true for all DSLRs

- autofocus stops working when you switch from stills to video (I know, "real" filmmakers don't use autofocus - but, coming from camcorders, I missed it)

- the camera stops and has to be restarted after 12 minutes of continuous video recording - very annoying when you're recording a wedding, a play or a speech.

It also lacks slow motion frame rates higher than 1080/30p and a quiet preamp for recording directly to the camera - forcing you to buy an external recorder or preamp for decent sound.

The 7D suffers from the same shortcomings.

Personally, I would avoid these cameras.

Of the cameras on your list, I would most seriously consider the $1074CDN GH3 and the $1250CDN BMPCC. I have both of these cameras and either of them will give you much better image quality than either of the Canons on your list.

Of the two, the GH3, however, is much much easier to use. It has batteries that will last you all day. It has a viewfinder that works while you're shooting video. It records at 1080/60p for smooth, usable slow motion.

The BMPCC has awesome 12-bit RAW image quality - but it has none of the GH3's usability features and can be a real challenge to shoot with.

The only real rap on the GH3 is its lack of focus peaking. Personally, in 2 years of shooting video, I have never had an out of focus shot with this camera (I use its lightning fast autofocus), but for some people, that's a problem.

If you really need focus peaking, and want to spend less than $1000CDN, you may want to consider the Panasonic G6. It is the best still/video camera below $1000 in my view, with focus peaking, 1080/60p, a built-in intervalometer for timelapse, plus all of the convenience of Panasonic GH cameras, to include a built-in electronic viewfinder and the ability to record hours of continuous video.

Here are a few examples of what this camera can do:

Doc: http://vimeo.com/97274302

Music Video: http://vimeo.com/88584840

Compared to the $3000 Canon 5D Mark III: http://vimeo.com/82318903

You can get the Panasonic G6 with the 14-42mm kit lens for $910.25CDN from Amazon Canada.

All of that said, if you can save a few more dollars, the GH3's big brother, the $1749CAD GH4, is so good that it inspired the bloggers in the videos above to sell their Canon DSLRs :)

Hope this is helpful!

Bill
Click to expand...

I really enjoyed reading your post. Even those I started my own post with no responses yet I feel your suggestions helped my decision a lot. I wan't to go with the GH4.
 
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brunerww said:
Hi dgwow123 - and welcome to the world of digital filmmaking!

Before you buy a Canon DSLR, you might want to listen to the conclusions these long-time DSLR bloggers have reached after reviewing the latest mirrorless camera, the Panasonic GH4:

http://youtu.be/gxGekOHEPuc?t=40m45s

http://youtu.be/6ci6DYXbKrs?t=29m59s

I bought a T2i back in 2010, and quickly reached these same conclusions and got rid of it.

Things I didn't know before I bought my T2i, and wish someone had told me:

- the viewfinder goes blank when you switch from stills to video (blocked by the mirror, which is useless for video). This is true for all DSLRs

- autofocus stops working when you switch from stills to video (I know, "real" filmmakers don't use autofocus - but, coming from camcorders, I missed it)

- the camera stops and has to be restarted after 12 minutes of continuous video recording - very annoying when you're recording a wedding, a play or a speech.

It also lacks slow motion frame rates higher than 1080/30p and a quiet preamp for recording directly to the camera - forcing you to buy an external recorder or preamp for decent sound.

The 7D suffers from the same shortcomings.

Personally, I would avoid these cameras.

Of the cameras on your list, I would most seriously consider the $1074CDN GH3 and the $1250CDN BMPCC. I have both of these cameras and either of them will give you much better image quality than either of the Canons on your list.

Of the two, the GH3, however, is much much easier to use. It has batteries that will last you all day. It has a viewfinder that works while you're shooting video. It records at 1080/60p for smooth, usable slow motion.

The BMPCC has awesome 12-bit RAW image quality - but it has none of the GH3's usability features and can be a real challenge to shoot with.

The only real rap on the GH3 is its lack of focus peaking. Personally, in 2 years of shooting video, I have never had an out of focus shot with this camera (I use its lightning fast autofocus), but for some people, that's a problem.

If you really need focus peaking, and want to spend less than $1000CDN, you may want to consider the Panasonic G6. It is the best still/video camera below $1000 in my view, with focus peaking, 1080/60p, a built-in intervalometer for timelapse, plus all of the convenience of Panasonic GH cameras, to include a built-in electronic viewfinder and the ability to record hours of continuous video.

Here are a few examples of what this camera can do:

Doc: http://vimeo.com/97274302

Music Video: http://vimeo.com/88584840

Compared to the $3000 Canon 5D Mark III: http://vimeo.com/82318903

You can get the Panasonic G6 with the 14-42mm kit lens for $910.25CDN from Amazon Canada.

All of that said, if you can save a few more dollars, the GH3's big brother, the $1749CAD GH4, is so good that it inspired the bloggers in the videos above to sell their Canon DSLRs :)

Hope this is helpful!

Bill
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot Bill for your helpful post, in fact all of you guys have given me more to think about, I really appreciate the advice. I did learn more about the BMPCC's firmware problems which kind of worries me. I actually plan on buying this camera right before I leave for China for a friend's wedding so I could see the 12 minute recording limit (which I was aware of) being a hindrance.

The GH3 looks interesting to me as well. I will look into your suggestion of the Panasonic G6, which was not on my radar.

I would like to also mention that I could splurge an extra bit on the 5d Mark II which you can get for $1200 used depending on what it can offer compared to the other cameras on that list.
 
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HIFF said:
I stand corrected. Hacked GH2, not hacked GH3.

My point still stands though: damn fine camera. The GH3 is an updated and superior GH2.

Some more on the shooting here:

Panasonic GH2 at Sundance and Slamdance: Carruth's 'Upstream Color' and Orbegoso's 'Musgo'
http://nofilmschool.com/2013/02/panasonic-gh2-shane-carruth-upstream-color-musgo/
Click to expand...

Pretty impressive. I wonder if the GH3 is hacked as well. Didn't know there was a hack for the Panasonic cameras. Any idea what the hack does? With magic lanter I know it lets you do RAW, among other options.
 
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The panasonic hack, primarily, offers increased bitrate, but also allows for unlocking of ISO. It's not as versatile or user friendly as magic lantern, but it certainly keeps the GH2 relevant these many years after it's release date. :)
 
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I've been very partial to the Canon 60D. It's basically the 7D's little brother, but has audio manual controls and a flip out LCD screen (coming from theprosumer camcorder world, that was a welcome sight). You could always buy a Rode VideoMic with it and record better audio directly to camera, but really it's better to record audio to an external device -- I recommend the Tascam DR-40. The Canon 60D body should be less than $1000, and sometimes you can buy a starter kit for about $1200.
 
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After evaluating everyone's feedback I am leaning towards purchasing the GH2 used, which I can get around 600$. I am really impressed by its bitrate capability, ease of use and versatility, but not sure about the dynamic range, low light capability and colors, however that's something that can be improved with a hack, proper lighting and good editing I suppose.
 
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Will Vincent said:
The panasonic hack, primarily, offers increased bitrate, but also allows for unlocking of ISO. It's not as versatile or user friendly as magic lantern, but it certainly keeps the GH2 relevant these many years after it's release date. :)
Click to expand...

+

Longtime GH2 user checking in;

Last week:

2_zpsa8d70652.jpg

3_zps4c516903.jpg

4_zpse2eeecd5.jpg
 
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dgwow123 said:
...I wonder if the GH3 is hacked as well...
Click to expand...

No - the GH2 was hacked to increase its bitrate from its maximum "high" bit rate (HBR) mode of 1080/30p at 24mbps to ~50 to ~200mbps. Without the hack, the GH2 was a good camera, but not great, due to compression artifacts and low light macroblocking.

The GH3, on the other hand, records at 50mbps IPB and 72mbps ALL-I straight out of the box. There wasn't really a lot of demand for hacking the camera because it already resolves images very well and has very little artifacting.

I doubt that the 1080p 200mbps/4K 100mbps GH4 will be hacked either :)

Cheers,

Bill

P.S. - I'm not a hacking kind of guy - so, instead of hacking my GH2, I just bought a GH3.

P.P.S. - just saw that you are leaning towards the GH2. It's a great camera, and I still have one as my C cam, but be advised that, at some point in the future, you may wish that you had 1080/60p, a headphone jack, a weathersealed body and a standard 3.5mm mic input jack. I know I did.
 
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