Low, low, low digital feature budget. Questions.

[Sweeney Jet]

Hello.

I'm estimating about 10-20k for my next feature-length film (a boxing/gangster drama), some of it of spent on new video/sound equipment. I'm doing the budget right now on Excel and I'm pretty much gonna shoot and direct myself with one Camera Assistant, a PA, and a Boom Op/Sound Recordist and limited actors in several locations. I pretty much got that part down and since it's non-union and it's a really low budget digital feature, I'm pretty much the producer too... so does that mean I set the prices of everything?

I will edit the picture myself on Final Cut Pro, but I have some real lack of knowledge on how sound post production and VFX post production works. Also, there are some other things I am clueless about. Here's what I assume I need and I do not know the cheapest going rate for these job titles or if I even need them considering the small budget...?

Post-Production:

1) Sound/Dialog editor -- $ ??

2) Sound Mixer -- $??

3) ADR -- $??

4) Foley Artist -- $??

5) After Effects VFX Artist (gunshots, explosions, gunshot hits, fire, smoke/fog, etc)

5) Composer (if I'm not using an actual band) -- $??

Production:

1) Make-Up Artist (There will be blood [] and boxing bruises) -- $ ??

2) Permits? If I need one, how much would they cost in a major city like SF?

3) Actors -- some of the cast will be either friends or student actors I worked with before in no-budget work. But I genuinely wanna hire legit actors for this one too from various sources -- excluding union sources. I've heard $100 day is what's generally done, but that seems kinda steep for someone like me... what do you recommend?

Insurance:

1) Errors and Omission? $ - ??

2) General Liability? $ -- ??


That's all the ones I'm stuck on. Sorry if it's a lot, but I've never done a budget for my films. I've only done no-budget stuff and worked on someone else's low budget film.

My intention -- business-wise -- is to sell the movie to a distributor once it's polished. Many films that cost as much or even lower has done well and that only injects confidence in my project. So I would love to plan this out correctly. Thank you.

 

[Utopia]

Before you hire any sound guys post their demo reels here - I'd like to see them.

 

[Zensteve]

I've heard $100 day is what's generally done, but that seems kinda steep for someone like me...

On no-budget films, that's quite good.

It's not a fortune... but you'll drastically reduce the odds that someone will jump ship at the last minute (which is not infrequent, on no-pay gigs, when someone finds a paying gig). That's a headache avoided right there.

boxing/gangster drama

On a total side-note: I recently landed a role for a boxer, in a film that is being shot in October. I've just started my training for it, to get into shape... I work for cheap. Just tossin' that out there.

 

[Kholi]

Hello.

I'm estimating about 10-20k for my next feature-length film (a boxing/gangster drama), some of it of spent on new video/sound equipment. I'm doing the budget right now on Excel and I'm pretty much gonna shoot and direct myself with one Camera Assistant, a PA, and a Boom Op/Sound Recordist and limited actors in several locations. I pretty much got that part down and since it's non-union and it's a really low budget digital feature, I'm pretty much the producer too... so does that mean I set the prices of everything?

Hey Sweeney,

Yeah, you want to do a budget breakdown of what you can realistically spend on each item. Even if that means zero dollars, then place zero dollars so you know that you've covered that in your budget and you cannot afford to hire anyone.

I will edit the picture myself on Final Cut Pro, but I have some real lack of knowledge on how sound post production and VFX post production works. Also, there are some other things I am clueless about. Here's what I assume I need and I do not know the cheapest going rate for these job titles or if I even need them considering the small budget...?

Post-Production:

1) Sound/Dialog editor -- $ ??

2) Sound Mixer -- $??

3) ADR -- $??

4) Foley Artist -- $??

5) After Effects VFX Artist (gunshots, explosions, gunshot hits, fire, smoke/fog, etc)

5) Composer (if I'm not using an actual band) -- $??

Production:

1) Make-Up Artist (There will be blood [] and boxing bruises) -- $ ??

2) Permits? If I need one, how much would they cost in a major city like SF?

3) Actors -- some of the cast will be either friends or student actors I worked with before in no-budget work. But I genuinely wanna hire legit actors for this one too from various sources -- excluding union sources. I've heard $100 day is what's generally done, but that seems kinda steep for someone like me... what do you recommend?

Insurance:

1) Errors and Omission? $ - ??

2) General Liability? $ -- ??


That's all the ones I'm stuck on. Sorry if it's a lot, but I've never done a budget for my films. I've only done no-budget stuff and worked on someone else's low budget film.

My intention -- business-wise -- is to sell the movie to a distributor once it's polished. Many films that cost as much or even lower has done well and that only injects confidence in my project. So I would love to plan this out correctly. Thank you.

I'm going to sum up your questions with my experience, being that we're now in post on our Sub 30K feature film.

Be prepared to spend at least ten thousand or so on post audio. That's what you can tell yourself you're going to need, and if you get very lucky you may be able to get someone to do it that really likes your feature for no charge, in exchange for "back end" deals, a very healthy credit, and the ability to use the work for whatever they wish.

The typical day rate for a Foley Artist in LA is 2,500.00.

My friend is a sound designer, even with that it's going to cost much more than we can actually afford.

You may want to consider digging into sound as well to learn how to do all of it yourself. Although it's not recommended, as there's a ton of very important equipment and knowledge needed to mix audio properly, hey... you're already doing a feature for a ridiculously low amount of money, you'll be wearing a lot of hats, why not put one more on!?

Haha.

As far as VFX go, here's my suggestion: if you can't find someone to do them well, no matter how much you are or are not paying them, you may want to find a way around doing them in general. You're already at such a low budget number, poor VFX will ultimately make the feature a lot less appealing to anyone who's in the business of buying.

Our feature is VFX intensive. Meaning, at least half of the movie relies on visual effects to be present and part of the world. It's tough to live up to!

And, finally, just a few mentions here: regardless of my working experience, yours may be very different. So, take it with a grain of salt and rock on! Lastly, you may consider raising some more money (if you haven't already) through Kickstarter--or indiegogo, I prefer the former of the two--to help with post. We raised over half of our budget through Kickstarter before shooting.

Always glad to see others working on microbudget features! I'll keep an eye on your thread, if you have any questions feel free to fire 'em off! What I can't answer I'll divert to other sources.

Shoot it up!

 

[Zensteve]

...and now for some of the Q's...

10-20k for my next feature-length film (...), some of it of spent on new video/sound equipment.

Why do you need to buy? Why not hire a sound-guy/gal who owns their own package?

That's money that you could putting into other areas.

I'm pretty much gonna shoot and direct myself

That's cool, but once again... you don't necessarily need to own your own equipment.

If you are using that bought equipment regularly, that's one thing - but if it's just for this film, maybe you are better served by spending that X-dollars on hiring a DP (with gear that he/she is experienced with) instead of buying something that you'll be learning from the ground up.

I'm pretty much the producer too... so does that mean I set the prices of everything?

It's your money, right? You're makin' the budget.

I will edit the picture myself on Final Cut Pro, but I have some real lack of knowledge on how sound post production and VFX post production works.

Can't really speak about sound, but the best VFX that comes out of post is 'cos proper planning was made in pre-prod.

or if I even need them considering the small budget...?

Since you intend on finding distribution, you'd better believe you need to at least consider them!

All of the various positions you list are wide open, in terms of what you pay/get.

In terms of easiest access to "nothing" cost, indie/unknown bands & music are a dime a dozen... often very good ones.

For everything lese, start looking up your local CraigsList. I'm sure you'll find something that will make forum member Blade Jones weep.

 

[USNFilms]

Hey Sweeney,

Yeah, you want to do a budget breakdown of what you can realistically spend on each item. Even if that means zero dollars, then place zero dollars so you know that you've covered that in your budget and you cannot afford to hire anyone.



I'm going to sum up your questions with my experience, being that we're now in post on our Sub 30K feature film.

Be prepared to spend at least ten thousand or so on post audio. That's what you can tell yourself you're going to need, and if you get very lucky you may be able to get someone to do it that really likes your feature for no charge, in exchange for "back end" deals, a very healthy credit, and the ability to use the work for whatever they wish.

The typical day rate for a Foley Artist in LA is 2,500.00.

My friend is a sound designer, even with that it's going to cost much more than we can actually afford.

You may want to consider digging into sound as well to learn how to do all of it yourself. Although it's not recommended, as there's a ton of very important equipment and knowledge needed to mix audio properly, hey... you're already doing a feature for a ridiculously low amount of money, you'll be wearing a lot of hats, why not put one more on!?

Haha.

As far as VFX go, here's my suggestion: if you can't find someone to do them well, no matter how much you are or are not paying them, you may want to find a way around doing them in general. You're already at such a low budget number, poor VFX will ultimately make the feature a lot less appealing to anyone who's in the business of buying.

Our feature is VFX intensive. Meaning, at least half of the movie relies on visual effects to be present and part of the world. It's tough to live up to!

And, finally, just a few mentions here: regardless of my working experience, yours may be very different. So, take it with a grain of salt and rock on! Lastly, you may consider raising some more money (if you haven't already) through Kickstarter--or indiegogo, I prefer the former of the two--to help with post. We raised over half of our budget through Kickstarter before shooting.

Always glad to see others working on microbudget features! I'll keep an eye on your thread, if you have any questions feel free to fire 'em off! What I can't answer I'll divert to other sources.

Shoot it up!

Your feature film sounds interesting, would you mind sending me a pm on some more details like when It will be out?

Thanks

 

[USNFilms]

5) After Effects VFX Artist (gunshots, explosions, gunshot hits, fire, smoke/fog, etc)

You know, I'm 15 and pretty good with VFX with just a few months practice by watching YouTube tutorials. I'm sure you could find someone on YouTube or someplace similar who is a VFX guru, and they would probably do quality work for a cheap price.

 

[USNFilms]

My intention -- business-wise -- is to sell the movie to a distributor once it's polished.

If you could somehow notify me when this is available (if you make it past pre production), i'd appreciate it, I love watching low-budget features because i hope to do one oneday and need some inspiration

thansk

 

[Kholi]

Your feature film sounds interesting, would you mind sending me a pm on some more details like when It will be out?

Thanks

Done and Done.

USN is right, as well, that there are a LOT of VFX artists out there who are great and looking for some good reel material to help boost them into a career, or, a better place in one. So, hopefully I didn't sound discouraging.

Also, Zensteve has a great point about renting versus owning: the pros of renting are that you spend a lot less up front, and you don't have to worry about gear upkeep. So factor that in.

The pros of owning are that you may be able to sell it off for less than you would've paid for a rental fee. However, technology zips by! So, choose what fits your budget best.

Indeed, as well, on VFX, the best VFX shots are properly planned for well before the post stage, if not even in the writing stage depending on if you're a writer/director.

 

[directorik]

So a total of four people making the movie - including you. Maybe
five with a makeup person.

Do you really need a sound/dialogue editor? Do you really need a
foley artist? Can’t you edit the sound and dialogue as you edit
picture. Can't you record some footsteps if needed? Or some
punches?

I know I would hire an AD and a scripty before I’d hire an foley
artist and a sound/dialogue editor - especially on your budget.

Okay, not what you asked.

Sound/Dialog editor - min. $500/wk.
Sound Mixer - same.
ADR - since ADR is a process that includes a recordist and some
kind of studio I’d say at least $1,000 for a couple of days.

Foley Artist - just one person? Doing what, exactly? A foley
artist is kind of useless without a foley studio - that’s gonna
run about the same as ADR.

After Effects VFX Artist - Maybe $500 for the project. Maybe
less, maybe a lot more.

Composer - same answer. It’s really difficult to ball park a
price. Look at the boards - several composers a week post here.

Make-Up Artist - a good one will run at least $250/day plus kit
fee. You might find someone willing to do it for kit fee only.

Permits? some cities (even big ones) do not require permits. You
can’t ball park this, you need to know exactly where you’re
shooting, for how long, how many people and the equipment being
used and then call the city. Here in Los Angeles a permit is about $280.

Actors $100 is kinda low but you might find good ones at that
rate. Kinda steep, but kinda worth it, too.

Errors and Omission? Very expensive. I was quoted $10,000
recently. Could be as low as $4,000/5,000.

General Liability - figure about five large. Especially with
stunts (yes, even boxing is considered stunts) and several
locations.

Now I know what you're thinking; "does it really need to be that high?"
And the answer is no. The prices I quote are terribly low; insultingly low.
But you can find people willing to work for less - free even. So the real
answer to everything except permits and insurance is, "It depends".

And yes, I'm gonna say it. Your crew is way too small for a feature. You'll
kill yourself and the other four people and it'll be miserable for your actors.

 

[Alcove Audio]

Your first mistake will be if you do not hire a qualified production sound person/team and pay strict attention to what they tell you. Involve them early in the preproduction. Every dollar/hour you spend on production sound will save you ten in audio post.

When it comes to audio post you have to figure on one to ten man-hours of work per each of the four audio post categories - dialog, Foley, sound FX and mix plus mundane tasks like archiving, back-up, file transfers, field work and the like. So if your film is 100 minutes it will be 400+ to 4,000+ man-hours of work.

Why such a wide range?

First, if you did not capture solid production sound, you will spend lots of additional time cleaning up noisy production sound, and then spend many more hours recording and editing ADR because much of the production sound was a lost cause. Your film will suffer as ADR dialog performances are rarely as good as the on-set performances.

Second, action films require more detailed and intense Foley and sound FX work. You will be doing complete Foley for all of the boxing scenes - arm swings, punches, clinches and footwork to name some of it - plus all of the additional sound FX required for the boxing venue. With gangsters you'll probably have some gun play and vehicles, more Foley and sound FX work. As you can see the more action there is the more time will be required.

The mix will also take a lot longer than you may think. And that is another expense you need to ponder; a certified 5.1 mix facility can cost upwards of $2,500 per day.

If you got great production sound you can get by with a lot of the "production Foley" which is more of the TV approach to sound. You'll only be doing the detailed Foley and sound FX work for the action scenes. Every scene you ADR will require complete Foley and sound FX work.

As an audio post specialist I've done seven features, and I specialize in low/micro budget projects. On my most recent feature project of 110 minutes there were two "action" scenes, the rest of the film was a dialog driven drama. The production sound was very good overall, only one ADRed scene, "standard" noise reduction. I put in a total of about 600 hours plus another 75 or so on the mundane stuff. I would have done a lot more work, but that was the limit of the budget.

 

[Utopia]

The typical day rate for a Foley Artist in LA is 2,500.00.

Where I work it's 2,700 a day for the studio alone, not including the Foley Artist and his Pro Tools engineer. On larger dub stages the costs go up exponentially as well as the audio and tech staff involved.

One thing to look out for is this:

I work with and know a lot of people who charge for "full days" and "half days". It's pretty criminal, which is why I don't do this, but some of those people charge you for a half-day even if they worked on your project for 30 minutes or less. Make sure they have an accurate program to keep track of the hours they work for you - such as Filemaker Pro or Mac Freelance or Bento.

Honesty is a part of this...

Funny story about studio rates is when the OJ Simpson case was hot and heavy and there was the white bronco chase on the freeway in L.A., there was a blockbuster being mixed in a large dub stage costing about 20,000 an hour all told, and the director just sat and watched the news in the dub stage for about 4 hours (halting production) because he was enthralled by it... Talk about not worrying about expenses....

I suggest hitting craig's list for a beginning sound designer who is fresh out of college (like Full Sail, etc.) who is looking to create a resume and won't mind taking a lessened paycheck to get started on a film.

 

[Kholi]

So a total of four people making the movie - including you. Maybe
five with a makeup person.

Now I know what you're thinking; "does it really need to be that high?"
And the answer is no. The prices I quote are terribly low; insultingly low.
But you can find people willing to work for less - free even. So the real
answer to everything except permits and insurance is, "It depends".

And yes, I'm gonna say it. Your crew is way too small for a feature. You'll
kill yourself and the other four people and it'll be miserable for your actors.

You're definitely right about the rates being terribly low.

I paid, on my production, each actor and both sound and make-up artist.

Most of the days, the total crew was five, not including actors, but including myself. Some I managed to get some friends to help out on, and on the larger days several paid people.

Yeah, it's a killer job, but at the same time I think it's okay: make sure the people getting involved like the project and want to go forward with you later, so they'll be more apt to return. Keep the set lighthearted but get things done.

In the end, again, it isn't easy work... but, nobody said it was going to be! haha. Bleed for it!

By the way, Director, wasn't specifically talking to you but just general statements to anyone reading the thread and curious.

 

[Kholi]

Where I work it's 2,700 a day for the studio alone, not including the Foley Artist and his Pro Tools engineer. On larger dub stages the costs go up exponentially as well as the audio and tech staff involved.

One thing to look out for is this:

I work with and know a lot of people who charge for "full days" and "half days". It's pretty criminal, which is why I don't do this, but some of those people charge you for a half-day even if they worked on your project for 30 minutes or less. Make sure they have an accurate program to keep track of the hours they work for you - such as Filemaker Pro or Mac Freelance or Bento.

Honesty is a part of this...

Funny story about studio rates is when the OJ Simpson case was hot and heavy and there was the white bronco chase on the freeway in L.A., there was a blockbuster being mixed in a large dub stage costing about 20,000 an hour all told, and the director just sat and watched the news in the dub stage for about 4 hours (halting production) because he was enthralled by it... Talk about not worrying about expenses....

I suggest hitting craig's list for a beginning sound designer who is fresh out of college (like Full Sail, etc.) who is looking to create a resume and won't mind taking a lessened paycheck to get started on a film.

Yeah, I also heard the rental rates on studios. The quotes I got were from freelance artists. Needless to say, it's such a large expense and I am trying to figure out how to do this without needing to seek out more funding.

To the original poster, heed the warnings about Audio here! Don't be afraid of it, but definitely get someone who's going to turn over the best audio you can afford... it is THE third dimension for narrative films!

 

[knightly]

How much and what kind of VFX are you looking at... I'm a Shake Owner/user and am willing to offer my services (prices can be discussed depending on the scope of the project).

I've also been doing Audio editing (music editing first, then dialog/post soundtracking) since the mid 80's. Perhaps we can work out a package deal I would like to add more professional experience to my CV and it sounds like you might have a project that needs someone who is cheaper due to lacking paid experience, but practiced for many years.

Sound Project from school:
- assignment: redo the soundtrack with no music or dialog
- http://yafiunderground.com/Hidden/fellowship-final-sm.mov
Sound Work for Hire (not the music, just the SoundFX):
- http://the50fifty.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/intro.mov
VFX & Sound Work for a 48 Hour Project:
- most of the work done in the 2 weeks following the screening
- All non-dialog sound added in post (footsteps are a bit loud - need fixing)
- All VFX footage captured in the 24 hours of production.
- http://yafiunderground.com/Video/scavengers-final-sm.mov

 

[Utopia]

Yeah, I also heard the rental rates on studios. The quotes I got were from freelance artists. Needless to say, it's such a large expense and I am trying to figure out how to do this without needing to seek out more funding.

I think there are plenty of foley artists out there who would walk for you and shoot foley for less than 2,500.

Hey, I've been known to do it for free. Ask Wheatgrinder

 

[wheatgrinder]

I yup, what he said.. also, doing foley can be a lot of fun. Even a sloppy poor timed effort sounds better then time accurate caned sound effects..

 

[Sweeney Jet]

On a total side-note: I recently landed a role for a boxer, in a film that is being shot in October. I've just started my training for it, to get into shape... I work for cheap. Just tossin' that out there.

Lol. Not unless you can morph into a Cambodian American boxer who smokes three packs a day. But congratulations on landing a boxing role! How is that like?

Why do you need to buy? Why not hire a sound-guy/gal who owns their own package?

Because I film a lot and I know I'll do more films after this boxing/gangster flick-- so I just wanna get a really good camera and sound equipment. And just have my sound recordist record good sound on the day and have the post-production peeps tweak it. I'm looking at the Sony NEX FS100 as an A cam or a 5DmkII as a B cam. Or just one of those. As for sound, a RODE NTG-2, H4N, and hire someone eager who knows how to use those things properly.

It's your money, right? You're makin' the budget.

Actually, it's not my money. The budget is part of a proposal for a filmmaking grant and I am positive that my story is what they're looking for. So, I just wanna make sure I have a proper-looking budget and I may get 10k-30k from them. And props to you, zensteve, for your reply.

@Kholi. Thanks for the informative reply. Kickstarter is a cool place. I've tried it before. I dare not put another hat and jump into sound post production thoroughly. It's not my thing and I've no interest in it -- so for me to do it would only make the film suffer. I'd rather get someone who actually loves/likes sound. Passion is key for good work. And if I got further questions, I'll ask for sure. Can't think of anything at the moment. Half-asleep, really.

@USNFilms. It's great to hear someone young already doing cool stuff like that. It's good. I started writing screenplays at that age and it's been quite rewarding -- personally, anyway. Shoot a link this way, bro, to your VFX work.

And yes, I'm gonna say it. Your crew is way too small for a feature. You'll
kill yourself and the other four people and it'll be miserable for your actors.

I can see where you're coming from and it's logical, but I believe it's entirely possible. It may not be conventional as only a few successful filmmakers done their first serious films that in that way (correct me if I'm wrong) -- Chris Nolan, Robert Rodriguez, and that guy who did Monsters. Edward Gareth, if I'm correct. Plus, I like small crews. More gets done quicker and, in my opinion, better. And it's a lot more personal and fun for me.

As for the body of the rest your reply -- I can dig the rates of the make-up artist, actors, permits, AE VFX, and sound editor/mixer... but man, the E&O/General Liability is somewhat discouraging... but thanks for the truth. I wanted to know the actual rates. Are those mandatory for a indie film that wants distribution one day (E&O/Liability)?

Second, action films require more detailed and intense Foley and sound FX work. You will be doing complete Foley for all of the boxing scenes - arm swings, punches, clinches and footwork to name some of it - plus all of the additional sound FX required for the boxing venue. With gangsters you'll probably have some gun play and vehicles, more Foley and sound FX work. As you can see the more action there is the more time will be required.

You're right with the gangsters part, but as for the boxing. There's no FX work. It's just visuals and it will be shot/cut like a music video. That's where the music comes in.

Alcove Audio, props to a detailed and very thorough reply, as always.

@knightly. Scavenger was pretty cool. VFX-wise... I'm just looking for stuff that would be too dangerous to shoot for real. Explosions and a gang shoot out... you know. Action sequences, but they're short. I'll keep you in mind, but I just feeling what's out there. I'm in no rush, really.

I suggest hitting craig's list for a beginning sound designer who is fresh out of college (like Full Sail, etc.) who is looking to create a resume and won't mind taking a lessened paycheck to get started on a film.

That's a cool idea, actually. There's no Full Sail where I'm from, but there's Academy of Arts University. Thanks for this suggestion.


Thanks to everyone who replied. I'm amazed at how many replies this thread got in a day. That's cool and I appreciate the knowledge that was shared here today. I will keep you posted on my next film which is about a losing middleweight boxer who's tempted to join the gang life, but he's a good man in the wrong town. That's all can I say for now. Don't wanna give out too many details. Good night.

 

[knightly]

@knightly. Scavenger was pretty cool. VFX-wise... I'm just looking for stuff that would be too dangerous to shoot for real. Explosions and a gang shoot out... you know. Action sequences, but they're short. I'll keep you in mind, but I just feeling what's out there. I'm in no rush, really.

Thanks I'm glad you're willing to consider me. When it comes time, I'm willing to discuss a flat rate rather than an hourly rate to do both the VFX and the Sound work. That way, you get off more affordably and I'll be able to get what I need in terms of compensation. Win/Win (WINNING!)

 

[Kholi]

The Fs100 is a sweet camera. You need a few accessories to go with it but when you've got them it rocks. I had the chance to keep one with me for two days and ran around shooting lots of stuff with some Cooke Panchros and a Duckos 11-16... Very tempted to shoot my next feature with one.

When the camera comes back I'm going to shoot something more serious with it to measure. Also going to try out some Slog F3 in a week or so.

Good times for tech!