Just venting about sound...

[gorillaonabike]

Great, I've shot my first short, the musician whose music I borrowed liked it so much she is spending money on shooting a music vid, I have another short next Feb / March and a few other bits and pieces kicking around. Sure, I had my short critiqued by an industry pro who taught me a huge amount about what I should've done. I was beginning to get compliments, feeling smug that I was making progress and then, and then...

I sat for 2 hours with a sound engineer. I helped him with a little thing which means that in return, he's happy to give me lots of his time recording free of charge when he's around and also to give me a few lessons. In that two hours, I learned more about the mistakes I'd made than I could ever possibly have imagined. Sound design for individual scenes (creating depth, shape), mood and recording live. The amount I learned was absolutely unbelievable.

I felt like a complete, total and utter sound fool, almost as if I'd never shot anything before. He showed me simple little elements which would've improved my first short immeasurably. I had absolutely no idea and feel like a total, complete and utter idiot relating to the sound which was recorded. Before I met him, I thought I knew something about sound but afterwards, I feel the way Einstein's cat must've felt when he was talking about Quantum mechanics.

It feels like the more I know, the more I don't know...

Anyhow, just venting...

And incidentally, if anyone has a minute, I have a trailer for a second short in the narrative screening room. If you have (literally) a minute, I'd appreciate if you'd have a look and critique. And if you do have a look, please be brutal. And sound people - I can now hear the issues... Jeez, I feel like a total noob...

 

[rogypro]

oh god now i'm going to be self conscious about my audio

 

[Zensteve]

If there's a way to blow the sound, I can do it.

Noone lets me near the sound equipment anymore, from on-set to post. My reputation precedes me, in that department.

trailer for a second short in the narrative screening room. If you have (literally) a minute

Your trailer was far longer than one minute... literally.

 

[directorik]

I felt like a complete, total and utter sound fool, almost as if I'd never shot anything before.

I understand that you are just venting. I assume you're venting in public
knowing people will comment. Mostly I'll let your own words comment:

In that two hours, I learned more about the mistakes I'd made than I could ever possibly have imagined.

The amount I learned was absolutely unbelievable.

Learning is what it's all about in my opinion. Everyone posting here has
been where you are or will be there. I've been where you are. Don't beat
yourself up. Enjoy the learning.

It feels like the more I know, the more I don't know...

Jeez, I feel like a total noob...

Aren't you a noob? Clearly when it comes to audio you are. Is there something
wrong about being a noob? I've been making movies for a long time - I've been
making my sole living (not part time, not hobbiest) for my entire working life
in film so I'm no longer a noob, but everyday it feels like the more I know, the
more I don't know. I LOVE that! I am always learning from someone who knows
more than I do and that's what keeps me going. Do you not feel that way? Usually
I recognize and understand that we all feel differently about most things - but
not this. I can't imagine anyone not absolutely loving the fact that the more you
know the more you find out you don't know. I would be stifled if I actually knew
everything about filmmaking. I would stop making movies if I did. Learning new
things is what keeps me going - it's my favorite part of this job.

 

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

My audio guy has 20 plus years in studio recording and live venue recording. The last thing he did for me (Kohlman Files) is now the 10th film/video project he has worked on. I believe if you count everything (mix, Foley, ADR, music, etc...) he put 200 hours plus into a 22 minute video. We STILL consider what we are doing on the sound side really rudimentary at best.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

I'd definitely second what Directorik said. I've been making my living from sound (music and audio post) for nearly 30 years. Many consider me to be an expert but that doesn't mean I know it all, in fact far from it. Being an "expert" means that I am knowledgeable and experienced enough to realise just how limited my knowledge really is, whereas you are just starting to learn how limited your knowledge is. Even after 30 years I still know only a small fraction of what there is to know about sound but it's this which drives me. If I really did know it all, I'd probably give up out of sheer boredom.

In other words, don't let ignorance get you down, use it to push yourself forward. That's what I do!

G

 

[Alcove Audio]

All I've learned is that I still have an awful lot to learn...

Sound is the hardest part of filmmaking. You can't see it, you can't touch or feel it, and no one ever bothered to teach you how to listen.

Listening is so completely automatic that you never think about it. Your ears were the only sense that was completely active when you were in your mothers womb. Your ears never "turn off," they are active 24/7. They are your alarm system when you are asleep, still processing everything you hear, listening for threats. Your hearing is multidimensional without moving your head; you can pinpoint sounds left or right, front or back, up or down. You can close you eyes if you don't want to see something, but you can''t close your ears; at best you can stuff your fingers in your ears and mute the sound a bit.

That is the issue; you take your hearing completely for granted. Until you learn how to listen you will always have problems with film sound.

 

[gorillaonabike]

All I've learned is that I still have an awful lot to learn...

Sound is the hardest part of filmmaking. You can't see it, you can't touch or feel it, and no one ever bothered to teach you how to listen.

Listening is so completely automatic that you never think about it. Your ears were the only sense that was completely active when you were in your mothers womb. Your ears never "turn off," they are active 24/7. They are your alarm system when you are asleep, still processing everything you hear, listening for threats. Your hearing is multidimensional without moving your head; you can pinpoint sounds left or right, front or back, up or down. You can close you eyes if you don't want to see something, but you can''t close your ears; at best you can stuff your fingers in your ears and mute the sound a bit.

That is the issue; you take your hearing completely for granted. Until you learn how to listen you will always have problems with film sound.

It is unbelievably hard... and easy at the same time.

However, what really struck me is how obvious certain elements of sound design are... and how I completely overlooked them. I put a couple of them into the f@cked up trailer I put together (in the narrative section) but the sound had already been recorded badly by the time I got to it...

Back to beating my head against my computer screen...

 

[Alcove Audio]

... the sound had already been recorded badly by the time I got to it...

GIGO - Garbage In, Garbage Out

As I've been preaching for years, it all starts with the production sound. At the indie level you cannot afford - financially and artistically - to ignore capturing quality production sound.

"Sound is HALF of the experience."​

 

[gorillaonabike]

That is the issue; you take your hearing completely for granted. Until you learn how to listen you will always have problems with film sound.

I would add 'in a film-maker's way.' I can hear lots of elements of classical music and back in the day we were all trained to strip a score down just by listening to it.

However, this is the first time I have had to consider how sound carries an image, the way the brain interprets etc... This is all new.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

However, this is the first time I have had to consider how sound carries an image, the way the brain interprets etc... This is all new.

This observation is IMO fundamental to filmmaking. What we see isn't reality and neither is what we hear. We don't see or hear the world around us as it is, instead we perceive the world around us as our brains interpret it. This distinction between reality and perception is what allows film to work. Without it, everyone would experience film for what it is, edited together clips of almost pure fakery and film would not exist as an art or as entertainment.

As filmmakers we need to have a good understanding of perception, so we can manipulate it to tell our story. The fact is that perception is a single combination of senses rather than a set of individual unrelated senses. This is massively important to appreciate because it means that our perception of what we are hearing is influenced by what we are seeing and how we perceive the images we are seeing is influenced by what we are hearing. Filmmakers who concentrate on the visual aspect of filmmaking are wasting their time, if they are not equally considering how the sound will affect the perception of those who will be watching the images. Here's an excellent demonstration of what I'm talking about and of how the perception of sight and sound are completely interlinked rather than being two independent senses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0

 

[pepper jack]

Holy crap! I didn't even notice his mouth at first, i just started hearing fa fa fa instead.. That is very interesting.

This whole thread has been making me think about my sound. Sound is one of the things that was extremely lacking for me in the past and still is. I have no clue how to even get started on getting into making better sound. My friend who is working on films with me is the one with the real passion for sound. Although, he is at the same place as me and I don't really know how to get him started on actually learning how to create proper sound for our films. I don't even know where to start myself..

 

[knightly]

Get a shotgun mic on a boom pole... get that sound into a pair of headphones somehow... then walk around and listen to your environments and people talking and turn the microphone in different directions while pointing at the subject's chin to see what the differences in the background noises and quality of the foreground noise (subject) when you do this.

Same as with a camera, until you actually turn it on and look at the image on the screen, it's all just theory and words. You HAVE TO experience it to start to understand it.

 

[Alcove Audio]

One place to start is to read Sound Design: The Expressive Power of Music, Voice and Sound Effects in Cinema by David Sonnenschein. He discusses the artistic, psycho-acoustic and other esoteric aspects of sound rather than the technical ones.

You may also want to watch/listen to folks like Randy Thom, Ben Burrt, Gary Rydstrom and Walter Murch discuss the craft of sound design on YouTube and on the DVD extras of the films on which they worked. (I posted a Randy Thom interview today, as a matter of fact: http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=44361) You may also want to spend some time at FilmSound.org. Randy Thom is especially forthcoming. He used to be a frequent participant on an audio post forum I subscribe to; he doesn't participate much these days as he now basically runs SkyWalker Sound. He was a great help to me when I started out, answering my endless questions.

Production sound is highly technical and requires great skill, but does not allow for much in the way of creative artistry, although it is an art-form unto itself. Audio post is another world entirely. Sound design is about the emotional content of the sounds, how they propel the story and enhance the characters. One thing that immediately becomes apparent is that you need to be able to understand and use technology instinctively so that it doesn't interfere with the creative process. You are creating, from scratch, an entire sonic world. The audience must believe it entirely, yet not really notice it.

I'm not trying to denigrate your interest in sound, but it requires a very large commitment. You really need to love sound. You need to spend a lot of time listening to the real world and how sound designers translate the real world into the film medium. I can't tell you how many hours I have spent with a hidden mic and headphones in bars, diners, train stations, bus stations, parks, beaches and dozens of other locations listening to people talking (to get the flow for dialog editing) and how real world sounds are radically changed when coming through a microphone - and then how it changes again when played through speakers. I also spend a lot of time listening to films without watching the visuals; it's amazing how much just the sounds (and the score) let you what is going on in a film.

 

[gorillaonabike]

Get a shotgun mic on a boom pole... get that sound into a pair of headphones somehow... then walk around and listen to your environments and people talking and turn the microphone in different directions while pointing at the subject's chin to see what the differences in the background noises and quality of the foreground noise (subject) when you do this.

Same as with a camera, until you actually turn it on and look at the image on the screen, it's all just theory and words. You HAVE TO experience it to start to understand it.

Just so you see where I am, at this stage, I have a five mic setup for tomorrow which I am running through a pro mixer (most kit has been borrowed) and am beginning to understand sound design and how the brain interprets sound. The mics were selected and lent to me by a professional sound engineer who talked me through sound design and selected the mics based on the specific functions for each one.

Funnily enough, I did not understand why a mixer was necessary! I was reading all the posts about sound and thought I had an idea but I really did not understand. Part of this was because I lacked an understanding of the basics of sound design - emphasis on the word 'design' which gives depth, movement and realism to any short / music recording. This is where a mixer and sound design meet... Jeez I'm dumb for not understanding this before!

There are some flaws with my setup for tomorrow which are around the recording (plus the human element). Again, I did not understand about the weakest link in the chain concept of sound. Sure, I understood the concept but would not have really been able to put my finger on exactly why the recorder I am using is a weak link. After the discussion, practice and demo with the sound engineer, I now genuinely understand the basics and it is as if a million pennies have dropped.

As a note, the professional sound engineer offered to lend me a piece of professional equipment to record the sound and gave me a brief tutorial. Unfortunately, I was unable to take the recorder as I was physically unable to carry it away under the weight of the mixer, the cables, the mics and the other gear I had on me!

Cameras are so much easier!!!!!

For my next short in Feb / March, I will have a dedicated sound recordist who has a smattering of sound recording experience.

I could've described what the different buttons on a mixer did but I hadn't made the connection in the relationship between design and a mixer as well as how we, as humans, interpret sound. I feel so dumb!!!! I feel like an idiot!!!

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Holy crap! I didn't even notice his mouth at first, i just started hearing fa fa fa instead.. That is very interesting.

What's equally as interesting or possibly even more interesting from a filmmaking point of view, is what happens when we play the game the other way around. Instead of using images to change how we perceive sound, using sound to change how we perceive the images! When you start to understand this, you start to understand the power and importance of sound design and the futility of spending all your time and effort concentrating on the visual aspect of filmmaking. Without exception, all the great modern filmmakers have either learnt this basic truth of filmmaking or know it instinctively.

I think much of what I post on this forum is ignored or dismissed by many as the esoteric ramblings of someone obsessed with the audio side of filmmaking and is of little importance to those more interested in the visual aspects of filmmaking. I think that once you start really appreciating how sound influences or even completely changes the perception of the images you are filming/editing, then a lot of what I (and Alcove) post will make a great deal more sense.

The last two paragraphs of Alcove's post #7 are worth reading again, exceedingly wise words and to be honest I'm a little annoyed at myself for not thinking to post something similar in all my time on this forum! I'm not so sure about the David Sonnenschein book though, I've always considered it to be an academic milestone in the understanding of film sound but not as useful as a guide to the practical application of sound and sound design.

Unless you specifically want to be a sound designer, I don't think it's worth the huge investment of time and energy required to learn the specifics. In fact, I find that a director who knows quite a bit about sound design is often more of a hindrance than a help! What I want from a director is two main things: 1. Someone who understands that sound is fundamental to how an audience perceives each shot, each scene, each character and the film as a whole and who therefore plans, shoots and edits the film to take advantage of this fact and 2. Someone who appreciates the role of sound design but is far enough removed from the process to provide feedback/an objective assessment of how well it's accomplishing it's goals.

Learning sound design: If you (or your friend) really wants to learn how to do sound design my advice would be to: 1. Learn to listen (rather than to just hear) and get in the habit of analysing what you are hearing whenever you go anywhere. 2. Listen and analyse how sound has been used in the "great" films and 3. Learn to apply what you have learnt to your own sound design. A good way of doing this is to take a short clip of film and design the sound for it. Once you have done that, design the sound all over again for exactly the same clip but giving the clip a completely different perception. Changing the feel of the clip from say comedy to horror is easy, try more subtle manipulations with different sound designs: Try to manipulate what part of the picture the audience is concentrating on. Try to communicate more complex or more than one emotion at the same time. Invent a motivation for a character in the clip and communicate that motivation using sonic POV or some other sound design "trick". Create a different motivation for the same character and create a new sound design to communicate that instead. As you finish each sound design experiment, show it to someone (not a filmmaker) who hasn't seen your previous experiments. Watch their reactions, ask them what they felt, what part of the picture they were looking at, what they thought the character was thinking or motivated by. This feedback will help you to understand where and why your attempts at manipulating their perception is working as you intended or not. Eventually, after studying the sound of the world around you, analysing the sound of the great films and a great deal of practice you will be able to put this all together and simultaneously manipulate the audience's emotions, focus of attention and involvement/experience of the characters and plot. At that point you can really feel justified in calling yourself a Sound Designer!

G

 

[knightly]

I like to recommend the book Audio/Vision by Chion. It really changed the way I think about sound.

To the above post... As a cinematographer, I constantly look at light and shadow around me to analyze how angle and surface texture affect them... an aspiring audio professional would/should certainly do the same every where they go with their medium.

 

[Alcove Audio]

I'm not so sure about the David Sonnenschein book though, I've always considered it to be an academic milestone in the understanding of film sound but not as useful as a guide to the practical application of sound and sound design.

It is very much about how sound is perceived (you've talked a lot about perception), and not a "how to" technical manual. I like it because it has that different perspective, and helps change the thinking of someone like our friend Gorrilla. It's a good place to start.

I like to recommend the book Audio/Vision by Chion.

I agree, Knightly, another good one!

Then you move on to specific topics like:

Dialog Editing - John Purcell
The Foley Grail - Vanessa Ament
The Sound Effects Bible - Ric Viers

They are more "how to" based, although they have very interesting (and applicable) history and anecdotes. Then you go back and reread the books by Chion and Sonnenschein. Perhaps you add "Practical Art of Motion Picture Sound" by David Yewdall to the mix as well.

Unless you specifically want to be a sound designer, I don't think it's worth the huge investment of time and energy required to learn the specifics.

Too many supposed filmmakers think that they can do it all themselves, whereas filmmaking is a team sport. There is just too much to know, that is why you MUST learn enough to speak the "language" of the various crafts so you can communicate clearly and concisely and then delegate those responsibilities to the department heads.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

It is very much about how sound is perceived (you've talked a lot about perception), and not a "how to" technical manual. I like it because it has that different perspective, and helps change the thinking of someone like our friend Gorrilla. It's a good place to start.

Maybe you're right. I personally found it very dry and had to wade through pages and pages of what seemed to me academic background to get to the few nuggets I hadn't thought of in that way. Maybe for a beginner it would be good, it's quite a few years since I read it and all I can remember are my impressions of it.

I've got very good impressions and recollections of reading the Purcell and Yewdall books though.

Too many supposed filmmakers think that they can do it all themselves, whereas filmmaking is a team sport. There is just too much to know, that is why you MUST learn enough to speak the "language" of the various crafts so you can communicate clearly and concisely and then delegate those responsibilities to the department heads.

While I agree entirely with the importance of clear and concise communication from the director, I think there are serious dangers in a director learning the "language". The amount of terminology used in sound and music is immense. I've had several catastrophes in both fields due to professional directors attempting to use the correct "language". These days, whenever a director uses some specific music or audio terminology, I will often double or triple check exactly what they mean, just to be sure they've used the term correctly and to be honest that rather defeats the point of them learning and using the terminology in the first place. It's usually OK when I've worked with the same director a few times though.

G

 

[pepper jack]

Yeah sound is definitely not my thing. I've been trying to get my friend to do more research and to take out my external mic and mess around with it recording random bits and pieces. I am definitely going to have to link him to this thread because you guys gave some really good information here.