sound Just venting about sound...

[gorillaonabike]

Great, I've shot my first short, the musician whose music I borrowed liked it so much she is spending money on shooting a music vid, I have another short next Feb / March and a few other bits and pieces kicking around. Sure, I had my short critiqued by an industry pro who taught me a huge amount about what I should've done. I was beginning to get compliments, feeling smug that I was making progress and then, and then...

I sat for 2 hours with a sound engineer. I helped him with a little thing which means that in return, he's happy to give me lots of his time recording free of charge when he's around and also to give me a few lessons. In that two hours, I learned more about the mistakes I'd made than I could ever possibly have imagined. Sound design for individual scenes (creating depth, shape), mood and recording live. The amount I learned was absolutely unbelievable.

I felt like a complete, total and utter sound fool, almost as if I'd never shot anything before. He showed me simple little elements which would've improved my first short immeasurably. I had absolutely no idea and feel like a total, complete and utter idiot relating to the sound which was recorded. Before I met him, I thought I knew something about sound but afterwards, I feel the way Einstein's cat must've felt when he was talking about Quantum mechanics.

It feels like the more I know, the more I don't know...

Anyhow, just venting...

And incidentally, if anyone has a minute, I have a trailer for a second short in the narrative screening room. If you have (literally) a minute, I'd appreciate if you'd have a look and critique. And if you do have a look, please be brutal. And sound people - I can now hear the issues... Jeez, I feel like a total noob...

 

[Alcove Audio]

Maybe you're right. I personally found it very dry and had to wade through pages and pages of what seemed to me academic background to get to the few nuggets I hadn't thought of in that way. Maybe for a beginner it would be good, it's quite a few years since I read it and all I can remember are my impressions of it.

Sonnenschein is not the type of book you sit down and read straight through. I read it straight through and, as you said, it's a little dry (make that very dry) and overwhelming. But if you take it in small pieces it is much more digestible. You read, say, pages one through ten, which is all about reading a script from a sound design point of view, then you cogitate on it for a day or so. Then you go back and read it again. After it has sunk in, you continue for another couple of pages, think about it, reread. It takes a long tome to get through the book this way, but I feel that the neophyte filmmaker would benefit from it.

While I agree entirely with the importance of clear and concise communication from the director, I think there are serious dangers in a director learning the "language".

I'm thinking more of the very raw basics. There are so many things that we, as soundies, think of and do automatically. Most indie types don't even truly understand the actual meaning of the word "Foley," using it interchangeably with sound effects. We toss around terms like "M&Es", and get a blank look from most indie types. For those who don't know, an "M&E" is a recording of all of the Music and Effects without any dialog. This is for when the dialog of a film is to be dubbed (replaced) in a foreign language, not to be confused with ADR.

I think what bothers me most is that many filmmakers don't even understand their own films. I want to discuss the motivations and the feelings of the characters so I can better create Foley and other sounds to enhance the characters and the plot/story, yet a large percentage of the time I get another explanation of the story. When we're mixing many filmmakers tell me that they want something louder when what they really mean is that the want an action to be more sonically focused to convey a certain emotion. But they never communicate that.

I think what it really comes down to is that too many filmmakers treat sound as an afterthought rather than an intrinsic part of the storytelling process. I mentioned earlier in this thread that almost everyone takes their hearing entirely for granted, and maybe that is the biggest problem that needs to be overcome. That's the place where Gorilla is right now, he is no longer taking sound for granted. Unfortunately, too many filmmakers never get there.

 

[directorik]

This entire thread is why I am not the audio person on my movies. My
two most fulfilling collaborators on a film are the DP and the audio people.
I so admire and respect what they do and I can't do it.

 

[AudioPostExpert]

Yes Alcove, I've been quite surprised by what I've seen on indietalk. The majority of the work I've done in my career has been on indie films and programs but not "indie" as most here seem to think of it. Although they were low or very low budget by film standards, they would be considered massive budgets by most here. What has surprised me most though isn't the budgets filmmakers here are working with but their approach, mentality and goals.

A lifetime ago I was an orchestral musician and like everyone else, I started out in school and regional orchestras and ensembles. Our goal was always to achieve the same end result as professional orchestras but our rehearsal schedules and some of our practise methodology had to be different, to try and compensate for the fact that we were young, inexperienced, amateur and less skilled.

What surprises me is that I don't see the equivalent mentality or final goal applied here by filmmakers. The majority here don't seem to have any real interest in making films or even understand what a modern film actually is. The consensus of many seems to be that film is basically all about moving photography. Dialogue exists to help turn the moving images into a bit more of a story and it would be better if there's no other sound at all but as it's expected they have to throw something in there when they're finishing off.

Obviously not for alcove but for pretty much anyone else reading this thread: The equivalent to my orchestral days would be an amateur symphony conductor who only knew anything about and was only interested in the string section, had a vague interest in the woodwind section but felt that the brass and percussion sections were nothing more than a necessary evil. The result would be:

1. A near professional string performance.
2. A poor but possibly acceptable woodwind performance.
3. Terrible brass and percussion; more wrong notes than right ones and completely inappropriate musicality.

The only people who might consider this a good concert are those who are also only listening to and only interested in the strings. For a general audience though, all the wrong notes and inappropriate musicality from the brass and percussion has destroyed the music, while all the fine detail and musicality of the string section has been rendered virtually unrecognisable and irrelevant. Ask these questions:

1. Isn't the job of the symphony conductor to get all the sections of the orchestra working together harmoniously to produce a good concert?
2. If the symphony conductor doesn't even attempt question #1, would you consider them a good symphony conductor or would you even describe them as symphony conductor at all?
3. If a symphony conductor is only really interested in the string section wouldn't they be better off giving up conducting symphony orchestras and only conducting string ensembles instead?
4. If the conductor wants to progress as a symphony conductor what would your advice to them be?

It seems to me that if this were the ConductorTalk forum, the thread about this concert would go something like:

1. I really liked the concert, I think the string section still needs some improvement though.
2. Not bad but the big key modulation was weak, the string section could have been smoother.
3. You're not going to get the performance you want without buying better quality string instruments.
4. You don't need Stradivarius violins, Rodriguez did a great concert with just $7,000 Walmart violins!
5. Your focusing too much on the violins but the violas, cellos and basses need a lot more work.
6. I disagree with #3, you can make the string instruments sound better with just some new bows.
7. Is it me or did anyone else notice something wrong with the brass and percussion?
8. Actually you're both wrong, you don't need better instruments or bows, just some new strings.
9. You can save money on new strings by making them yourself, here's a link .....
10. (ME): The concert was destroyed by the brass and percussion and the woodwind were pretty poor too. How can wrong notes be acceptable? There is a level beyond just getting the notes right though, the musicality. The brass and percussion are an integral part of the music, not just there to make the strings sound better!
11. I enjoyed the concert, there were a few wrong notes in the brass but nothing which destroyed the concert. Strings were awesome!!
12. I believe brass and percussion are important, when I've got enough money I'll certainly consider hiring a brass/percussion professional.
13. I've conducted several symphony concerts, you need to plan and organise your string rehearsals better.
14. Wicked, what did you do with the strings? I want my orchestra to sound like that!
15. Does anyone know any good (free) string players in Arkansas?

The obvious solution is for the conductor to spend less time with the strings and more time and effort rehearsing the brass, percussion and woodwind. Sure the string performance will suffer slightly for less attention but the concert will be immeasurably better! The analogy, which I hope is obvious, is: String section = visuals, sound = Brass and percussion, Conductor = Director, Woodwind could be the dialogue.

G

 

[knightly]

Where is the like button... fantastic post! I like that you have me quoted in #9 Anyone want to buy a used violin... it's not the newest technology (1780s) and needs a little fixing up... but plays beautifully when the parts (bridge, sound post and the tail gut) are all in place