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Is there any books on writing about police forensic technology?

I am reading the Howdunnit book Forensics, by D.P. Lyle. However, the book only talks about how the police catch criminals. It doesn't really give a lot of information on how criminals can actually beat the technology. Are there any books that talk more specifically about that, or anything I can use to get ideas?

Thanks for any input. I really appreciate it.
 
I am reading the Howdunnit book Forensics, by D.P. Lyle. However, the book only talks about how the police catch criminals. It doesn't really give a lot of information on how criminals can actually beat the technology. Are there any books that talk more specifically about that, or anything I can use to get ideas?

Thanks for any input. I really appreciate it.

Watch 'Bones'. I believe one of the interns learned forensics so he could commit the perfect murder ??

a
 
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hahaha, I don't think there is a 'How to not get caught by the police for dummies'.
At least not published by a real publisher: there is a moral dilemma in this.
It is pretty undesireable to publish a book to enable criminals.

However: if you know how the police caught certain people, you can reverse engineer what mistakes not to make.

For a script you only have to make it plausible the criminal got away. It doesn't really have to be the perfect crime.
 
Okay thanks. Mainly in my script, a cop gets into a shootout, and some bad things happen, and the wrong person gets killed, which drives the rest of the plot.

However, I do not want the forensics being able to trace the physical evidence back to the cop, and want the police to look for other possible suspects. So the cop would have to remove each of his fired bullets from the dead body as well as all the bullets in the walls and everything, before any police arrive to a 911 call, where gun shots are reported fired.

Since this crime was not planned, the cop has to make up for his mistakes that are already made in the crime scene, and that makes it tricky, compared to a pre-planned crime. I am not sure how to write it so that he can get away with it, while removing the ballistic evidence from the fired bullets, and dna. I can write it so that he wore gloves to the scene, in case something were to happen, that he was worried would be traced back to him, but that is a bit of a stretch.

Do cops often wear gloves, just in case they are worried about killing the wrong person, and do not want anything traced back to them?
 
They can wear gloves if they have to make an arrest of someone that is bleeding or looks sketchy, sure. But they don't walk around with them on. They do have them handy.
 
Well I am trying to set my own personal deadline on writing the script, so the sooner, the better.

I could write it so the cop is not wearing gloves. After a shoot out, occurs and it's outdoors, in an area where no cameras would have captured it, how long can the cop have, before other cops respond, so that he can clean up all his prints, DNA, bullets and shell casings, from the scene. Maybe 20 minutes tops?
 
Just write it and make it happen. There are many ways. That's your job. To figure it out.
 
Well I am trying to set my own personal deadline on writing the script, so the sooner, the better.
It is your call.
You can move that deadline 3 weeks and do the 77 hour long 48HFP.
Or write this script.
Or try both.

I could write it so the cop is not wearing gloves. After a shoot out, occurs and it's outdoors, in an area where no cameras would have captured it, how long can the cop have, before other cops respond, so that he can clean up all his prints, DNA, bullets and shell casings, from the scene. Maybe 20 minutes tops?

Depends on the location. Did people hear gun shots?
Is it remote?
If nobody hears it: there is no stress at all. But that would be boring.
You can make the time pressure as high as you want.
If a car happens to be around the corner he has 30 seconds only.
 
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Well I am trying to set my own personal deadline on writing the script, so the sooner, the better.

I could write it so the cop is not wearing gloves. After a shoot out, occurs and it's outdoors, in an area where no cameras would have captured it, how long can the cop have, before other cops respond, so that he can clean up all his prints, DNA, bullets and shell casings, from the scene. Maybe 20 minutes tops?

:lol:

Clean up all the bullets???
How Is he going to dig into all the bricks and trees and bodies and take all the bullets he shot

The logistics are mind boggling.
Shell casings, prints, sure. You can do that in a couple of minutes.

But bullets???
 
Okay thanks. Mainly in my script, a cop gets into a shootout, and some bad things happen, and the wrong person gets killed, which drives the rest of the plot.

However, I do not want the forensics being able to trace the physical evidence back to the cop, and want the police to look for other possible suspects. So the cop would have to remove each of his fired bullets from the dead body as well as all the bullets in the walls and everything, before any police arrive to a 911 call, where gun shots are reported fired.

Since this crime was not planned, the cop has to make up for his mistakes that are already made in the crime scene, and that makes it tricky, compared to a pre-planned crime. I am not sure how to write it so that he can get away with it, while removing the ballistic evidence from the fired bullets, and dna. I can write it so that he wore gloves to the scene, in case something were to happen, that he was worried would be traced back to him, but that is a bit of a stretch.

Do cops often wear gloves, just in case they are worried about killing the wrong person, and do not want anything traced back to them?


One of the pillars of storytelling is authenticity. IS IT POSSIBLE that this person could really exist, or this event could really happen?


Suspension of belief.

The term suspension of disbelief or willing suspension of disbelief has been defined as a willingness to suspend one's critical faculties and believe the unbelievable; sacrifice of realism and logic for the sake of enjoyment


Your above scenario is just not believable, and I think there is zero chance he or she would get away with it. Maybe for one day, but that's it.

1. Removing the bullets from the body still leaves bullet holes. What's his plan to hide those? Is he going to tell the other police and forensics that's how he found the body?

2. Does he pack his own clips? If so, it is likey his prints are on each casing. He better find EVERY ONE of them. In a shoot out, people usually move around, hide behind a car, then a tree or building, then run and shoot to get ot the next place of cover. That is a lot of moving, with casings all over the place. He needs to retrace his every move - or did he stay in one spot and these guys just shot back and forth until one was finally hit? An innocent pedestrain distrcted by their phone walked right through the middle, and the cop filled them full of lead?

If someone else packs his clips, then their fingerprints will be on the casings. If they work in the police department, then that can probably be traced to them. Either way, the cop better find every single casing - and sort out the other guy's casings from his own, and have a good story in place as to why the other casing are there in the first place. Who was shooting at what?

3. Modern frensics can see a lot, including narrowing down a bullet type by the 'footprint' it leaves when it hits something, like a car. This cop not only needs to find all the spent lead (and the fragments) but also plug any holes left behind. He'll needs some bondo, various colors of car paint, cement filler, tire inflater, a tree bark repair kit, a window replacement kit, surgical instruments, and a trunk full of crime scene CYA goodies.

4. If this is a real shoot out, then who was the cop shooting at? Did the bad guy or gal (or whoever was shooting back) get away? If so, then there is a witness, who would likely want to make an anonomys tip against the cop. How the wrong person get in the way?

5. Powder residue on the cops hands.

6. Stray bullets can travel a long way. The cop needs to figure out how many bullets he fires, add up what he can find in the immediate area, then try and find any others unaccounted for. Could be ten blocks away, could be 30 blocks away. Either way, someone somewher my likely see or hear a bullet slam into a buildiing facade or a car or whatever, and maybe even report it.

7. If the cop has to crawl under cars to get to casings, he is going to look a little trashed when the other police show up. Does he have a good explanation ready to go?

8. You mention 20 minutes for a 911 response. This is possible and due to many factors, none of which are predictable. But, who made the call? Did they only hear the shots, or did they see something? And 20 minutes in NOT enough time to clean up the scene. He would likely assume he has 5-10 minutes before someone shows up. To his astonishment, he has 20. Where'a a cop when you need one?!

9. How did the cop end up here? A call came in? The shoot out just erupted out of the blue? Can he even see who is shooting at him? How does he know he shot the wrong person?

10. Cameras are EVERYWHERE. A local convenience store camera could have captured the cop's car passing in the direction of the shoot out at about the time of the event - maybe two or three cameras in various pocations captured the same cruiser - and the police department will want to know how and when the cop heard the shots, and why it took 30 minutes before he reported it (10 minutes for the shoot out, 20 minutes to clean it up). Or will he tell them he just rolled up on a body in the street, and that must be someone else's cruiser in the footage?


This especially is a ridiculous statement ...

Do cops often wear gloves, just in case they are worried about killing the wrong person, and do not want anything traced back to them?


You're asking us to believe your cop did all of this in 20 minutes ...

http://science.howstuffworks.com/csi.htm

I'd work on another idea. This one has too many holes, no pun intended.


Alex
 
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Okay thanks.

What if I wrote it so that the villains who he was following at the time, happened to have cans of gasoline in their cars. Earlier in the story, the villains used and spread gasoline all over everything to cover up their crime. So perhaps the main character can think of before, when the villains had gasoline, then run over to one of their cars that they left behind to see if the brought gas cans this time. And it turns out they have them. The MC get the gas out, pours it all over the crime scene and burn it. So all of the MC's prints and DNA are burned in the crime scene.

Then he can get rid of his shoes later, and never wear them again so his shoe prints will not be traced back to him. Is that better?
 
Yeah I am filmming it. So I don't know, how else to write it, as it's a matter of logic for the story VS. special effects and budget.

Even though fire cannot gurantee to destroy all the prints, DNA and forensics, it is still the best, most hopeful way, isn't it?

Also what if I just found a guy who could create CGI fire maybe, convincingly?

The articles that you linked mostly talk about fire not being able to make a dead body unidentifiable though. Where as in my story, the killer isn't worried about the police not finding out who the body is. The killer is worried about his own physical evidence being there. So the fire might destroy his own, like fingerprints, a hair left at the scene for example. Wouldn't it? So as long as the fire can destroy that, than he is in the clear and it doesn't matter if the body is identified, cause he cannot be proven to have been there. However, the killer in this case, is a police detective, so he would have the knowledge to beat his own system from his own work and experiences.

I just have to figure out how a pro would. However, in this case, the killer kills a guy by accident, and not intended. So he has to cover up the evidence that he was there, without whatever resources he has there, since it was not a pre-planned crime, which makes it tricky.
 
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Okay so what if he doesn't destroy all the evidence.

What if he waits until they collect it, then he goes back to the lab and he swaps it out. He replaces it with fake evidence inside of the lab and covers his own tracks.

Dexter did that more than once. Because they don't suspect him and he's part of the department he has special access.
He can distract a coworker friend and abuse his privilege.

Hopefully i got the details right, its 6 am after a long day i didn't reread the old posts.
 
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Harmonica,

As a writer (storyteller) it is your JOB to create an MC that the audience attaches themselves to emotionally, and then run this MC through a series of events that are plausible. These events make up your plot - the reason this character is in this situation at this point in their life, and how they resolve it in a manner the audience wholly accepts as true.

Your cop, who I take to be your main character, accidently kills someone in a shootout. This someone just happens to have cans of gas in his or her car. Per your notes, there is some kind of history here of using gas to cover up crime scenes?

My first thought is, the cop is in a shootout, which mans someone is shooting at the cop.

Am I right so far?

This someone happens to have a car full of gas cans, so they are likely a CRIMINAL WITH A GUN INVOLVED IN A SHOOTOUT WITH A COP.

Still right?

A shootout means bullets from both parties are missing their target and going ..... somewhere. After the shootout is over, your cop wants to cover up the scene.

Why? This sounds like a legal action so far. But, for whateveer reason, this cop (or detective) decides to use the perp's own criminal evidence to erase the fact he was there. So he starts a fire.

I am curious how this fire will erase bullet holes and dings in the surrounding buildings, magically burn eveery casing and fragment, and on down the line. Must be one hell of a big fire.

I assume this cop's car is parked far enough away not to be hit by bullets or get burned?

No witnesses via vison or hearing?

No footage?

Has the time to do all this? Did he or she call a time out?


I am going to also assume this is one scene in a longer story?


As a writer, you need to think scenarios through backwards and forwards, searching for the minutia that can call your story's plausibility into question. This - and your other thread on the gang story - is so full of glaring holes and bad patch jobs to make it just plain ridiculous.

Stop throwing what ifs out there for the forum to resolve for you, and take the time to think the story through. My guess is that you have a pet scene you just don't want to walk away from, and will perform whatever magic is needed to keep it in the film.

Toss both your ideas and start fresh.


And don't say 'Okay, thanks, but what if ....' START OVER ON A NEW IDEA!!

a
 
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The is a reason why the cop cannot report it. Earlier in the story, the cop blackmails a computer hacker into hacking into a lawyer's personal information to find out who a certain client is that is paying the lawyer. After that, the cop starts stalking the client on his own time. It leads into him getting in the middle of shootout, he didn't see coming.

Basically if he tells his superiors that he was following the suspect around, his superiors are going to ask him, who this person is to the cop, and why was the cop following him. Since the police were never investigating this person before.

The MC cannot tell his superiors that he blackmailed a hacker, into hacking the suspect's lawyer's information and say that he found out who the suspect was that way. Because then the police cannot arrest the suspect in the shootout, cause the MC's word is no longer credible, cause he violated the suspect's fourth amendment rights. He would then be a tainted witness, and the suspect would not be able to be arrested and charged, cause it would be fruit of the poisonous tree.

So the MC does not want to be a tainted witness, and legally taint the whole case. He could lie and say that he was in that location for a completely different reason, but if word ever got out that he hacked into the lawyer's information to find out the ID of the suspect, it would taint the whole case. This is what the police told me, when I was researching legalities for my story.

So the cop has to wipe away, all evidence that he was there, so the case can remain untainted, and the police could therefore, never prove that he was there, as a result of illegal hacking.

This is what the police told me he would have to do, so the case would not be ruined, if any evidence leads back to him being there, and they were trying to prove that he discovered who the suspect was through hacking. By wiping away that he was there, he could deny ever knowing the suspect, and the police would not have enough for the case to be tainted, since they couldn't prove he was there, as a result of violating the suspect's fourth amendment rights through hacking.

So the MC has to erase any evidence that he was there. The police can have a murder, but it cannot lead back to him, otherwise the MC just gets painted into a legal corner. So the cop was going rogue pretty much and is already guilty of blackmail and hacking felonies, and cannot leave any evidence that he was there as a result.

I can have witnesses maybe hear the gunshots and call the police, but I do not want witnesses to see any of it. It can be in a secluded area therefore. No video footage either. Basically I want the police to investigate the villains for the killing and the not the MC. But I don't want the police to ever find out the MC was there.

As far as the story being full of glaring holes, which holes do you mean? I basically want the MC to kill someone by accident and then cover it up. I don't want to have holes to patch, but I want to write a story, where accidents happen, and people cover them up, successfully, without their decisions being pre-planned. I want them to be able to dig themselves, into holes but to also dig themselves out after and solve their problems. Is that possible?

As for letting the police find everything and then going into a lab to destroy all that evidence later, how would that work? You also say that I should throw away this pet idea, the pet idea being the MC frames the villains for a murder, but is that idea so illogical that it won't work?

1. The case would not go to him, so the lab people are going to wonder why he went there, unless he is working on another case, that is being done in the same lab. So wouldn't that be a big convenient coincidence?

2. If evidence from a murder, is all of a sudden altered, wouldn't the lab people suspect something has been changed, and look at the camera footage of the lab, to see who was in there last?

I haven't seen Dexter, so I don't know how he did it. But I thought it would be less complicated if he destroyed the crime scene, before it reaches the labs.

Basically for my story, I wanted the MC to be so desperate and determine to nail the villains, that he ends up framing them for a killing that they didn't commit. The whole let the ends justify the means type theme. But I don't want the MC to go out and murder a person in cold blood for this to happen. I can't see him going that far. So I though the could kill someone by accident or something and then frame the villains for it. And since the MC is already guilty of hacking and blackmail, he has a reason to not want to have to be caught with that later. So he has a reason to not have any evidence of him being at any crime scenes that the villain was at also... according to the police I asked when researching. So basically for the story to go where I want and have the MC frame the villain for murder and let the ends justify the means, the MC has to get someone killed accidentally, and then get the motivation to frame the villain as a result.

As for glaring plot holes, which ones do you mean? Is it the other thread with the evidence buried in the ground, is that it?
 
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cop is secretly tailing someone, gets in gun fight, wong man dies.
'Why where you there?'
"I saw suspicisious behaviour, but wasn't sure. Before I knew it I was in a shoot out."

PROBLEM SOLVED

NEXT!
 
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